CharonY Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 On 10/14/2024 at 2:54 AM, exchemist said: Early man (and woman) may have found the smell a turn-on. To this day, perfume preparations commonly include "musky" elements. (One of these is ambergris, which is basically shit from constipated whales.... I have not read the full paper, but based on a skim, I think the authors may have overstretched their claims. To be fair, most of it is in the discussions, which allows for some level of speculation, but this is (IMO) somewhat close to a wild guess. The bacterial enzyme might be an adaption to the human metabolite as it might provide them with a selective advantage. But the analysis would not allow to make any statements regarding this process also being a selective advantage for humans. The authors speculate that the human precursor have no purpose and then speculate on how further processing might have a selective advantage. This is a rather broad extrapolation and would require a much deeper analysis of the metabolic processes leading on the humans side of things (i.e. the precursor). The production of them might not be the primary role of the involved enzymes, but rather a side aspect, that are exploited by bacteria, for example. 2
exchemist Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 1 minute ago, zapatos said: No one that I'm aware of. OK so that shows the groin area does not produce body odour in the way the armpit does, right?
zapatos Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 Just now, exchemist said: OK so that shows the groin area does not produce body odour in the way the armpit does, right? No. It shows that YOU have not smelled it (hence the olfactory comment). A Google search and MY experience indicates it does.
exchemist Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 3 minutes ago, CharonY said: I have not read the full paper, but based on a skim, I think the authors may have overstretched their claims. To be fair, most of it is in the discussions, which allows for some level of speculation, but this is (IMO) somewhat close to a wild guess. The bacterial enzyme might be an adaption to the human metabolite as it might provide them with a selective advantage. But the analysis would not allow to make any statements regarding this process also being a selective advantage for humans. The authors speculate that the human precursor have no purpose and then speculate on how further processing might have a selective advantage. This is a rather broad extrapolation and would require a much deeper analysis of the metabolic processes leading on the humans side of things (i.e. the precursor). The production of them might not be the primary role of the involved enzymes, but rather a side aspect, that are exploited by bacteria, for example. Sure, it is rather speculative. But the possible correlation of the appearance of the enzyme with the rise of the primates is an interesting finding.
StringJunky Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 2 minutes ago, exchemist said: OK so that shows the groin area does not produce body odour in the way the armpit does, right? We may not notice the groin smells because it is exposed to air, whereas the armpit is more enclosed and can contain the smell products to a more concentrated level, such that we notice it.
exchemist Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 11 minutes ago, zapatos said: No. It shows that YOU have not smelled it (hence the olfactory comment). A Google search and MY experience indicates it does. Why then does nobody bother with deodorant for the groin?
zapatos Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 (edited) 17 minutes ago, exchemist said: Why then does nobody bother with deodorant for the groin? I guess the same reason they don't put deodorant on their feet. Why do people take a shower and wash their groin before going on a date? Edited October 15, 2024 by zapatos
TheVat Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, StringJunky said: Eating a wide diversity of uncooked plant matter, each one having their own commensal species groups, are good probiotic sources as well AFAIK and probably the best way for its diversity. Kefir, which I use, along with veg and Greek yoghurt, has a few dozen species in it. It's probably the best fermented type of food for diversity in one product. Kefir does seem to be about the best. That and a high quality kombucha, and you've practically got a biome. And for one golden moment, the thread was not discussing groin odours. 2 minutes ago, TheVat said: Greek yoghurt has low levels of lactose. Most of it is converted to lactic acid. Sensitivity will vary between individuals, I would imagine. Even then, there are women who apply it prophylactically. I knew one. Wait...what? 1 hour ago, zapatos said: Why do people take a shower and wash their groin before going on a date? They are optimists. Edited October 15, 2024 by TheVat 2
exchemist Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, zapatos said: I guess the same reason they don't put deodorant on their feet. Why do people take a shower and wash their groin before going on a date? My point is there is a huge difference between a slight smell of sweat or traces of body fluids in the groin, for which washing is quite sufficient, and the powerful odour of unwashed and non-deodorised armpits. If you just wash your armpits, and don't use deodorant, they smell really rank after as little as 12 hours. Nobody's groin ever smells remotely like that. Edited October 15, 2024 by exchemist
iNow Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 4 hours ago, exchemist said: Why then does nobody bother with deodorant for the groin? Some do. Your premise is false
zapatos Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 2 hours ago, exchemist said: If you just wash your armpits, and don't use deodorant, they smell really rank after as little as 12 hours. Mine don't. In fact my pits never really smell bad with or without deodorant. I have no idea why. 2 hours ago, exchemist said: Nobody's groin ever smells remotely like that. That's a pretty bold statement given your small sample size.
CharonY Posted October 15, 2024 Posted October 15, 2024 2 hours ago, exchemist said: Sure, it is rather speculative. But the possible correlation of the appearance of the enzyme with the rise of the primates is an interesting finding. Yes, but one can turn the claim around. For example, mutations in the gene I mentioned earlier (ABCC11), reduces reduces the level of odorant precursors in human sweat. In some populations this variant accounts for over 90% of the population and it was speculated that reduction of body odor might have been under positive sexual selection. 3 minutes ago, zapatos said: Mine don't. In fact my pits never really smell bad with or without deodorant. I have no idea why. This might be an example of such 1
exchemist Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 10 hours ago, CharonY said: Yes, but one can turn the claim around. For example, mutations in the gene I mentioned earlier (ABCC11), reduces reduces the level of odorant precursors in human sweat. In some populations this variant accounts for over 90% of the population and it was speculated that reduction of body odor might have been under positive sexual selection. This might be an example of such This is interesting. I found this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK127546/ according to which people with the A version of the gene do not produce odour precursors while those with the G type do. The A type is very highly prevalent in people of East Asian descent and in fact only 7% of them use deodorants. By contrast, those of European or African descent usually have the G type and so it is these societies where deodorant use has become the norm. 1
CharonY Posted October 16, 2024 Posted October 16, 2024 This is also one of the relatively few examples where we can link a single gene to a fairly clear phenotype (it also affects ear wax consistency). However, I want to reiterate that only because we know one if its associated phenotypes, it does not mean that the phenotype in itself is the trait under selection. While it is possible that body odor is under positive in some and negative in other populations, it is also possible that it is associated with some else that we are unaware of that is being selected, or it could be co-selected with a different allele that we are not considering and so on.
exchemist Posted Friday at 12:40 PM Posted Friday at 12:40 PM 2 hours ago, hozzy said: Dealing with lingering armpit odors on shirts can be frustrating, but you're not alone—it's a common issue tied to bacteria and sweat interacting with fabric. Based on what you've shared, it sounds like you’re looking for an effective, non-toxic solution without risky chemicals or nanotechnology. I can share some insights and personal experiences that might help. Why It Happens Even after washing, bacteria trapped in the fabric can react with heat or moisture, causing odors to return quickly. This is especially common with synthetic materials like polyester, but cotton isn’t immune either. What’s Worked for Me Enzyme-Based Detergents: Products containing enzymes like protease or amylase can break down sweat, oils, and protein residues that regular detergents might leave behind. Look for options labeled as “enzyme-based” or “sport detergents.” Success: Tide Hygienic Clean and Persil ProClean have worked wonders for me. If you want something milder, there are non-toxic enzyme detergents available in eco-friendly brands like BioKleen. Oxygen Bleach (Non-Chlorine Bleach): An alternative to traditional bleach, oxygen bleach (like OxiClean or Seventh Generation Oxygen Bleach) is safe for most fabrics and great for odor removal. It’s non-toxic and skin-friendly. How I Use It: I soak shirts in warm water mixed with oxygen bleach for 30–60 minutes before washing. Vinegar Pre-Soak: You’ve tried vinegar, and while it’s a great deodorizer, it may need to be combined with baking soda. How I Use It: Mix 1 cup of white vinegar with warm water, let the shirts soak for 30 minutes, and wash as usual. Adding baking soda in the washer also enhances its effectiveness. Borax: Borax can work wonders, especially when added to the wash cycle. It softens water and helps detergents work better. It’s also non-toxic if used as directed. Note: Borax has been my go-to for particularly stubborn odors. Switch to Natural Fibers: If synthetic fabrics are the issue, consider switching to shirts made from natural fibers like organic cotton or bamboo, which are naturally odor-resistant. What Hasn’t Worked Well for Me Regular Detergents: Most don’t have the enzymes or strength to tackle embedded bacteria. Chlorine Bleach: Effective, but harsh on fabrics and not ideal for skin. Overusing Fabric Softeners: These can leave a residue that traps bacteria and worsen the smell over time. Suggestions Based on Your Concerns Non-Toxic Recommendations: Look for products like Molly’s Suds, Seventh Generation, or BioKleen, which are eco-friendly and gentle on skin. Laundry Sanitizers: Lysol Laundry Sanitizer works for many, but it may not align with your preference for non-toxic solutions. Enzyme Additives: Try a dedicated enzyme cleaner like Bac-Out by BioKleen—effective and plant-based. Pro Tips Always wash shirts in warm to hot water to kill bacteria (if the fabric allows). Air-dry shirts in sunlight, as UV rays naturally eliminate odors. Wash sweaty shirts immediately or pre-soak them to prevent bacteria buildup. What to Avoid Products with heavy fragrances—they mask odors rather than eliminate them. Overloading the washing machine, which prevents thorough cleaning. If you’re open to trying a product, my top recommendation is an oxygen bleach combined with an enzyme-based detergent. They work synergistically to clean and deodorize fabric naturally. Let me know how it goes ...with thanks to the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation for this informative bulletin......
exchemist Posted 10 hours ago Posted 10 hours ago 9 minutes ago, hozzy said: It seems like the authors have ventured into a speculative area with their claims, particularly around the bacterial enzyme's adaptation to human metabolites and its potential selective advantage. While it’s true that the discussions section allows for some level of conjecture, this seems to lean too much toward an unsupported extrapolation. The idea that the bacterial enzyme adaptation offers a selective advantage is plausible, but the analysis does not provide enough evidence to extend this to humans. The authors have suggested that human precursors may lack purpose and that further processing might provide a selective advantage, which feels like a broad leap. This kind of speculation would require a much more comprehensive exploration of human metabolic processes, especially surrounding the precursor in question. From a broader scientific perspective, it’s important to recognize that the production of certain metabolites might not always be the primary function of involved enzymes. Instead, these enzymes might play a secondary role, potentially exploited by bacteria, much like how bleach manufacturers might innovate around chemical processes to create products for specific applications. Similarly, the study of bacterial enzymes and their interactions with human metabolites should involve deeper insights into the metabolic pathways on the human side of things before making sweeping claims about evolutionary advantages. A more rigorous analysis would strengthen the authors' argument, just as detailed chemical formulation and testing are required for reliable [link removed] This reads like yet another lousy undergraduate essay from the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.
Genady Posted 9 hours ago Posted 9 hours ago 57 minutes ago, exchemist said: This reads like yet another lousy undergraduate essay from the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation. It is rather a lousy way to sneak in the link at the very end of the 'essay':
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