Self-made billionaires (split from How come that a child of two non autistic people may have autism?

[Sensei]

On 4/4/2024 at 3:51 PM, Phi for All said:

I haven't seen any good arguments about billionaires pulling themselves up solely by their own bootstraps. It's well known that billionaires can only exist if they steal the money legally from everybody else. Does anyone have an example of a billionaire whose employees love them as much as the stockholders do? All I ever hear about is how the people who do the most work get the least pay, and the person who gets paid most does nothing but figure out how to get paid more.

"Self-made millionaire" means that someone did not get millions from his parents. Heritage them.
"Self-made billionaire" means that someone doesn't get billionaires from his parents.
And that's it.
The real way to get millions or billions is under the rug, which you don't have access to.

Now you (plural) came up with a new definition that self-made billionaire cannot get money from anybody else or government.. They how can they get it otherwise? Or how can you get any money? You (scientists) depend on government subsidies the most...

 

 

5 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Or you were simply wrong to conflate a private salary from the government with subsidies, tax breaks, and other economic incentives Elon Musk got from the government. I'm going to go with that rather than chase this red herring.

I bet Elon would survive collapse of government subsidies.. unlike a regular scientist who rely on it on a daily basis..

 

 

The whole thread is bizarre for me.. as it is about semantics.. A long before Elon even imagined anything he had milllions from selling PayPal..

 

 

Edited April 5 by Sensei

[swansont]

24 minutes ago, Sensei said:

"Self-made millionaire" means that someone did not get millions from his parents. Heritage them.
"Self-made billionaire" means that someone doesn't get billionaires from his parents.
And that's it.

Self-made means you did it yourself, with minimal outside help. Not just help from parents. It suggests that anyone can do it if they just work hard enough.

There’s a baseline of support that anyone can get, but most uber-wealthy get far more than that, such as subsidies or tax breaks for individuals or companies not available to the average person.

If someone hands you a million dollars and you can parlay that into a bigger fortune, good for you. But since most people don’t have access to a million dollars, it’s a tad insulting to imply that it’s a path to wealth accessible to all.

[Sensei]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Self-made means you did it yourself, with minimal outside help. Not just help from parents. It suggests that anyone can do it if they just work hard enough.

People buy stuff somebody produce..

Without buyers, fortunes cannot grow..

IOW, how can you literally do it yourself if you rely on customers?

If I bought/mined 1000/10000/100000/1000000 BTC 15 years ago, am I a sell-made millionaire/billionaire?

1 hour ago, swansont said:

There’s a baseline of support that anyone can get, but most uber-wealthy get far more than that, such as subsidies or tax breaks for individuals or companies not available to the average person.

Depends on the country..

1 hour ago, swansont said:

If someone hands you a million dollars and you can parlay that into a bigger fortune, good for you. But since most people don’t have access to a million dollars, it’s a tad insulting to imply that it’s a path to wealth accessible to all.

...if someone has earned several hundred million dollars from PayPal alone and has gained a globally recognized position, such a person is in a slightly different position than an ordinary John Doe, if we are talking about receiving government investments after completing a several dozen-page contract with the government..

ps. I feel uncomfortable in the position of Elon's advocate.. Let's invite him here on the forum. After all, he is a physicist..

 

 

Edited April 5 by Sensei

[swansont]

11 minutes ago, Sensei said:

People buy stuff somebody produce..

Without buyers, fortunes cannot grow..

IOW, how can you literally do it yourself if you rely on customers?

Customers trade money for goods and services. They are not just giving money to someone.

12 minutes ago, Sensei said:

...if someone has earned several hundred million dollars from PayPal alone

PayPal did not magically appear from nothing.

[Sensei]

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

Customers trade money for goods and services. They are not just giving money to someone.

Isn't it the same as in my example with trading satellites delivered into space for money? i.e. the government pays to lift xxx tons of something for yyy amount of money, instead of NASA.. ?

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

PayPal did not magically appear from nothing.

We have more than a dozen such services at the moment, unfortunately..

It is not the point.

The issue is what someone understands by "self-made billionaire." I have expressed what most people in the world mean by it.

 

 

Edited April 5 by Sensei

[swansont]

5 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Isn't it the same as in my example with trading satellites delivered into space for money? i.e. the government pays to lift xxx tons of something for yyy amount of money, instead of NASA.. ?

Sure. Has anyone else brought this up?

[Sensei]

5 minutes ago, swansont said:

Sure. Has anyone else brought this up?

Sure. The one who complained about Musk and government cooperation..

 

Edited April 5 by Sensei

[swansont]

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

Sure. The one who complained about Must and government cooperation..

 

I don’t know what you mean by cooperation. Government subsidies and tax breaks are not the same as government contracts. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

I don’t know what you mean by cooperation. Government subsidies and tax breaks are not the same as government contracts. 

Yes and no, depending on how you view it. Generally speaking, corruption aside, governments use subsidies and tax breaks as incentives toward something they seek to encourage for the benefit of "The People". Generally speaking, corruption aside, governments use contracts to obtain something for the benefit of "The People".

They can be different, they can be essentially the same, and both can be good or corrupt.

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, Sensei said:

"Self-made millionaire" means that someone did not get millions from his parents. Heritage them.
"Self-made billionaire" means that someone doesn't get billionaires from his parents.
And that's it.
The real way to get millions or billions is under the rug, which you don't have access to.

Now you (plural) came up with a new definition that self-made billionaire cannot get money from anybody else or government.. They how can they get it otherwise? Or how can you get any money? You (scientists) depend on government subsidies the most...

OK, let's switch things up to illustrate my point.

Our own @Markus Hanke is a recognised self made/taught physics expert, but I know that he will acknowledge that he had to be taught the basics, before he could build his bank of understanding... 

People can't pull themselves up by there bootstrap's, because it's basically a computer joke... 😉

[Markus Hanke]

16 hours ago, dimreepr said:

but I know that he will acknowledge that he had to be taught the basics

Of course  I was very fortunate that I grew up in a part of the world were an excellent basic education is freely available to everyone. I consider myself lucky.

[Sensei]

20 hours ago, dimreepr said:

OK, let's switch things up to illustrate my point.

Who cares about your point of view?

@swansont @Phi for All

Instead of you, we have the Cambridge University dictionary:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/self-made

"rich and successful as a result of your own work and not because of family money"

 

I used the well-known Cambridge's dictionary definition of the word, and instead of approval ("acceptance of the statement") I got 4 negative points in this thread, for no reason..

 

ps. This is semantics. Your family bought you food, gave you other goods and so on when you were young. The point is in the details.

[Sensei]

22 hours ago, dimreepr said:

People can't pull themselves up by there bootstrap's, because it's basically a computer joke... 😉

..a joke to one is real life to another entity..

..it depends on competences, knowledge and privileges..

 

 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

Who cares about your point of view?

@swansont @Phi for All

Instead of you, we have the Cambridge University dictionary:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/self-made

"rich and successful as a result of your own work and not because of family money"

 

I used the well-known Cambridge's dictionary definition of the word, and instead of approval ("acceptance of the statement") I got 4 negative points in this thread, for no reason..

 

ps. This is semantics. Your family bought you food, gave you other goods and so on when you were young. The point is in the details.

The point is in the flawed thinking, "rich and successful as a result of your own work and not because of family money" The thing is, every family has money and since you're alive, how can you tell?

The point is, self made is impossible as a legitimate concept in the real world, for example, I am, literally, a paedophile, I love kids they bring joy to my day (mostly), but I'm not going to say that, in the real world either.

Quote

 

pedophilia (n.)

1900, "abnormal, especially sexual, love of young children," from pedo- (from Greek pais (genitive paidos) "child") + Greek philos "loving" (see -phile). First attested in an abstract of a report by Krafft-Ebing. Paedophilia is better.

 

 

Just now, Sensei said:

..a joke to one is real life to another entity..

..it depends on competences, knowledge and privileges..

 

 

It depends on who switched it on... 😉 

[Sensei]

1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

The point is in the flawed thinking, 

Your personal interpretation of words is irrelevant, since we use a common language, you have to use the same interpretation of a word or sentence as everyone else on the world, otherwise you won't be understood if you write a public post e.g. just like every day you do so..

 

 

7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It depends on who switched it on... 😉 

..better worry who will switch it off..

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

 

@swansont @Phi for All

Instead of you, we have the Cambridge University dictionary:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/self-made

"rich and successful as a result of your own work and not because of family money"

 

It’s a false dichotomy, because there are other ways of getting money.

If you won the lottery, you’d be rich because you won the lottery, not because of your own work or because of family money.

[dimreepr]

12 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Your personal interpretation of words is irrelevant, since we use a common language, you have to use the same interpretation of a word or sentence as everyone else on the world, otherwise you won't be understood if you write a public post e.g. just like every day you do so..

I wonder, are you being deliberately obtuse?

I said thinking...

18 minutes ago, Sensei said:

..better worry who will switch it off..

Why would I do that?

Thanks mate, that lil ol neg is acknowledgment that you've run out of steam on this thread (which kinda makes me right, go me...).

[Sensei]

40 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Thanks mate, that lil ol neg is acknowledgment that you've run out of steam on this thread (which kinda makes me right, go me...).

Is this a big surprise? Why does anyone waste their time on you when you reject common knowledge.. ? I have provided the data of Cambridge University.. If you disagree with them, write to them to update their data according to your pet theories..

[J.C.MacSwell]

The problem with the term "self made" is that it's often used well outside typical use with the context being that no social obligation should be felt by those "self made" and that such things as taxes are considered something ranging from "generous donations" to outright theft

All the while with the expection that the managed economy by the government and wealth security from police institutions etc should be more directed at maintaining and "opportunizing" that and other established wealth than for benefiting everyone more or less equally. 

[Sensei]

The problem is that words don't mean the same thing if you say them in different parts of the world.

 

Edited April 7 by Sensei

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, Sensei said:

The problem is that words don't mean the same thing if you say them in different parts of the world.

 

The problem is that words like this exist, and some people think that because it has an official definition, it legitimises the sentiment; and as @J.C.MacSwell points out, it gets twisted and mangled to the point that even the greediest think their moral compass is pointing north; then even their grandmother's are up for sale, rather than up for their thanks.

Word's often don't mean anything in different culture's, that's why they're lost in translation; I doubt aborigines/indigenous tribes even have a word for self-made, except for perhaps 'God'.

Edited April 8 by dimreepr

[Phi for All]

On 4/7/2024 at 3:49 AM, Sensei said:

I used the well-known Cambridge's dictionary definition of the word, and instead of approval ("acceptance of the statement") I got 4 negative points in this thread, for no reason..

I don't know anything about that. I was responding to the post where you conflated the financial aid Elon Musk got from the government with swansont's government salary. It was wrong when you said it, it's still wrong, and it really has nothing to do with how you define "self-made". It's about the difference between getting paid by an employer and getting financial incentives, tax breaks, and infrastructure help from a government entity.

I don't think you can defend this point, and I was really hoping you could admit you had this part wrong so we can move on to other areas in this discussion. This is NOT semantics, and it's not a translation error. Being hired to work for the government is different from being awarded government contracts, subsidies, and tax incentives. Does that make sense?

[J.C.MacSwell]

25 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I don't know anything about that. I was responding to the post where you conflated the financial aid Elon Musk got from the government with swansont's government salary. It was wrong when you said it, it's still wrong,and it really has nothing to do with how you define "self-made". It's about the difference between getting paid by an employer and getting financial incentives, tax breaks, and infrastructure help from a government entity.

I don't think you can defend this point, and I was really hoping you could admit you had this part wrong so we can move on to other areas in this discussion. This is NOT semantics, and it's not a translation error. Being hired to work for the government is different from being awarded government contracts, subsidies, and tax incentives. Does that make sense?

I don't think Swansont used any capitalist leverage to pry his salary out of the government, but just as there are differences there are similarities.

If that's what he was getting at...he's still right.

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I don't think Swansont used any capitalist leverage to pry his salary out of the government, but just as there are differences there are similarities.

If that's what he was getting at...he's still right.

About what?

[J.C.MacSwell]

If Musk (or Swansont) had nothing to give in return, he probably wouldn't have seen much government money.