Producers And Consumers

[Photon Guy]

So from what I know about the eco system is that it's got producers and consumers. The producers are the plants that take in sunlight to undergo photosynthesis and to grow. That provides a food source for consumers, the consumers are the animals that eat the plants and animals that eat other animals. So the food chain starts with plants and then herbivores and then predators and so forth. However, the plants are always the producers and the animals, whether they be herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores, are always the consumers. 

However, I would think there are some cases in which a life form can be both a producer and a consumer. There are some plants that in addition to using photosynthesis will also feed off of other life forms as predators, perhaps the best known example would be the Venus Fly Trap. In addition to the Venus Fly Trap there are other plants that also eat insects so I would think they would be both producers and consumers, is that correct?

[iNow]

It’s pretty reductionist and lacks nuance, but generally organisms will fit into both categories depending on context and framing. It also sounds vaguely Marxist. 

[Eise]

The answer is in your question: animals being eaten are producers and consumers. Pretty useless question.

[joigus]

Plants do cellular respiration too. It's only that they are nowhere nearly as energy-demanding as animals are.

Plants have mitochondria, not just plastids. They do 'produce'.

Quote

An animal cell has an average of 1000 to 2000 mitochondria, while a plant cell has an average of 300 to 450 mitochondria. The difference in the number of mitochondria is due to the different energy demands between plants and animals.

Google for: "animals have many more mitochondria than plants"...

Edited April 22 by joigus
minor correction

[CharonY]

55 minutes ago, joigus said:

Plants do cellular respiration too. It's only that they are nowhere nearly as energy-demanding as animals are.

Plants have mitochondria, not just plastids. They do 'produce'.

Google for: "animals have many more mitochondria than plants"...

This is actually not the point, though. Generally speaking, the terms producers and consumers are typically used in the context of food webs. A more technical term would be trophic level. Autotrophs (basically organisms able to utilize inorganic carbon) that are consumed by heterotrophs are considered producers.

In this context, a venus fly trap that consumes insects would not be considered a producer, as they are obtaining carbon from other organisms. Or to put it simpler, it is not so much the inherent ability of an organism that is described with these terms, but rather their position in a given food web. The same organism could be placed in different position, if the composition of the food web shifts.

[joigus]

8 hours ago, CharonY said:

This is actually not the point, though. Generally speaking, the terms producers and consumers are typically used in the context of food webs. A more technical term would be trophic level. Autotrophs (basically organisms able to utilize inorganic carbon) that are consumed by heterotrophs are considered producers.

In this context, a venus fly trap that consumes insects would not be considered a producer, as they are obtaining carbon from other organisms. Or to put it simpler, it is not so much the inherent ability of an organism that is described with these terms, but rather their position in a given food web. The same organism could be placed in different position, if the composition of the food web shifts.

Thanks. You're right. I also said "produce" when I meant to say "consume".

[Photon Guy]

On 4/22/2024 at 8:05 AM, Eise said:

The answer is in your question: animals being eaten are producers and consumers. Pretty useless question.

Nope animals are just consumers, it's the plants that are the producers. 

[swansont]

46 minutes ago, Photon Guy said:

Nope animals are just consumers, it's the plants that are the producers. 

Carnivores eat herbivores, and sometimes other carnivores.

This notion of producers and consumers seems overly simplistic. Like someone is applying a very rudimentary economic model to it.

[joigus]

On 4/23/2024 at 1:10 AM, CharonY said:

This is actually not the point, though. Generally speaking, the terms producers and consumers are typically used in the context of food webs. A more technical term would be trophic level. Autotrophs (basically organisms able to utilize inorganic carbon) that are consumed by heterotrophs are considered producers.

In this context, a venus fly trap that consumes insects would not be considered a producer, as they are obtaining carbon from other organisms. Or to put it simpler, it is not so much the inherent ability of an organism that is described with these terms, but rather their position in a given food web. The same organism could be placed in different position, if the composition of the food web shifts.

I tend to forget biologists are sooo carbon-centered...

[Phi for All]

16 hours ago, Photon Guy said:

Nope animals are just consumers, it's the plants that are the producers. 

!

Moderator Note

This topic is in a mainstream section. Can you offer some support for this statement? It seems trivially false.

 

[TheVat]

We love our carbs!

Maybe a better way to get the nuances of food chains is through trophic cascades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_cascade

Also, in understanding how large heterotrophs also "produce," look at fecal detritus pathways.  Whales have been studied, regarding their importance in this kind of pathway....

https://marinesanctuary.org/blog/whale-poop-and-climate-change/

 

[Photon Guy]

15 hours ago, swansont said:

Carnivores eat herbivores, and sometimes other carnivores.

This notion of producers and consumers seems overly simplistic. Like someone is applying a very rudimentary economic model to it.

But the food chain starts with the plants, so that makes the plants the producers. That's what I was taught in biology class, that the producers are at the start of the food chain. If you're not at the start of the food chain you're not a producers, which means all the producers are plants. 

[TheVat]

28 minutes ago, Photon Guy said:

But the food chain starts with the plants, so that makes the plants the producers. That's what I was taught in biology class, that the producers are at the start of the food chain. If you're not at the start of the food chain you're not a producers, which means all the producers are plants. 

See my previous post.  And learn about trophic cascades.  The chain is more like a loop, where autotrophs and heterotrophs interact in complex ways.  Please read all replies, you can learn a lot.  

Edited April 25 by TheVat
pyto

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

See my previous post.  And learn about trophic cascades.  The chain is more like a loop, where autotrophs and heterotrophs interact in complex ways.  Please read all replies, you can learn a lot.  

This is not really my field of study, but it is really not necessarily like that. There is an hierarchical order which can be measured, e.g. by isotope ratio mass spectrometry. The lowest trophic level are occupied by autotrophs and are also called primary producers. They are frequently plants but also algae, and certain autotrophic organisms (including photosynthetic and chemotrophic bacteria). On top are various trophic levels occupied by heterotrophs, (which ecologists call consumers) and another missing category are organisms that mineralize organic matter (I believe they are called decomposers).

But obviously any food web consists of more than animal and plants (and might not have either).

[TheVat]

@CharonY

 

I was just pointing out how top and bottom levels aren't always distinctly separated functionally, as in the whale fecal detritus pathway. (also decomp pathways from larger animals) That is what I meant by a loop rather than a simple hierarchy.  But yes, for sure there are hierarchical levels as nutrients pass up through trophic levels and isotopes concentrate.  

[CharonY]

I see what you mean. I think ecologists do make some distinction here in as the primary producers are fairly easy clear in a hierarchy, an often messy mid-layer of consumers of various sorts and the loop is closed by detrivores and decomposers. But then, ecologists are weird. I suppose all the fresh air gets into their head.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

I suppose all the fresh air gets into their head.

One can only hope 

[swansont]

4 hours ago, Photon Guy said:

But the food chain starts with the plants, so that makes the plants the producers. That's what I was taught in biology class, that the producers are at the start of the food chain. If you're not at the start of the food chain you're not a producers, which means all the producers are plants. 

What biology class was this? I’m guessing it was not college level. I think the food chain is more nuanced than this, once you study in some depth, as TheVat’s and CharonY’s posts would imply.

 

[Photon Guy]

On 4/25/2024 at 10:58 AM, TheVat said:

See my previous post.  And learn about trophic cascades.  The chain is more like a loop, where autotrophs and heterotrophs interact in complex ways.  Please read all replies, you can learn a lot.  

Yes it is more like a loop but plants don't feed off living things (most plants anyway, there are exceptions such as the Venus Fly Trap.) Plants only feed off sunlight and nutrients from the ground, and are eaten by animals, which then might be eaten by other animals and so forth. Thus all the food in the food chain, or food loop or food web or however you want to look at it, can all be traced back to the plants. 

On 4/25/2024 at 3:30 PM, swansont said:

What biology class was this? I’m guessing it was not college level. I think the food chain is more nuanced than this, once you study in some depth, as TheVat’s and CharonY’s posts would imply.

 

It was high school biology. High school is where I took biology, in college I studied psychology and physics. 

[CharonY]

7 hours ago, Photon Guy said:

Thus all the food in the food chain, or food loop or food web or however you want to look at it, can all be traced back to the plants. 

You keep forgetting photosynthetic and other autotrophic organisms that are not plants.

[sethoflagos]

9 hours ago, Photon Guy said:

Yes it is more like a loop but plants don't feed off living things (most plants anyway, there are exceptions such as the Venus Fly Trap.) Plants only feed off sunlight and nutrients from the ground, and are eaten by animals, which then might be eaten by other animals and so forth. Thus all the food in the food chain, or food loop or food web or however you want to look at it, can all be traced back to the plants. 

Who are the primary producers in the thriving communities around deep ocean hydrothermal vents?

Not much photosynthesis going on down there.

[abuislam]

You've brought up a fascinating point about the complexity of ecosystems! You're absolutely right that traditionally, plants are considered producers and animals are considered consumers in the food chain. However, there are indeed instances where certain organisms blur these lines by exhibiting both producer and consumer behaviors.

Plants like the Venus Fly Trap and other carnivorous plants are excellent examples of this phenomenon. While they primarily generate energy through photosynthesis like typical producers, they also supplement their nutrient intake by consuming insects. This unique adaptation allows them to thrive in environments where nutrient availability might be limited.

In such cases, these plants can indeed be considered both producers and consumers. Their ability to generate energy through photosynthesis while also directly obtaining nutrients from other organisms challenges our traditional understanding of ecosystem dynamics, highlighting the intricate relationships between different life forms.

It's moments like these that remind us of the richness and diversity of life on our planet, and how nature continually surprises us with its ingenuity. Thanks for sparking such an interesting discussion!

[abuislam]

You've nailed the basics of the ecosystem! While plants are typically producers and animals are consumers, carnivorous plants like the Venus Fly Trap blur these lines, acting as both producers and consumers by capturing insects for nutrients. Nature's diversity never ceases to amaze!