“The algorithm “ (split from Why are some people under the impression that BLM and ANTIFA are terrorist organisations?

[MSC]

On 4/22/2024 at 7:16 PM, CharonY said:

and yes, the term itself is complicated, but let's pretend it refers to folks with objective expertise in the matter) this results almost innumerable parallel realities.

Defining objective expertise on the matter is difficult as well. Take law degrees for example; You've got your Ruth Bader Ginsberg's and your Clarence Thomases. 

In Philosophy you've got people like Saul Kripke being published in peer reviewed journals before going to college and people with PhDs in some branch writing weird utilitarian arguments for why people should eat their babies, just for for the sake of being contentious. I'm at least an expert in following curiousity to the core root and how polymathy works, if nothing else. Yet I'm a highschool drop out who works on a farm. 

I mean you've got paid credentialed experts in most fields hired by some industry to downplay some messed up bullshit they are doing. 

Add to that algorithms kicking people toward what it thinks their preferences are anyway. I mean when you think about it, it's easy to understand why people either completely lack trust in or wholly believe whoever fits their idea of what an expert is. 

When you're online too it's hard to even know who to trust when they say they have college qualifications, behind a screen. so I've just gone with a mix of observing consensus, observing dialogical behaviour and fact checking when given keywords. And we all know some people lie about it. I've done it or been purposefully vague about my educational background. Not proud of lying about it in the past but I dunno, always regretted leaving school and was ashamed of being a drop out. Now I don't care who knows and life's too short for living with lies.

I can't even always tell when threads get thrown into speculations because you've got high level physics debates raging in them so from my perspective someone is either crazy, too personally invested in their hypothesis or is actually ahead of their time and onto something I'd have no ability to understand or accept even if I had the PhD. 

Sorry for the tangents Charony. Just difficult to hide my despair and disappointment at how segregated everyone has become ideologically because of how the internet works now and my own lack of ability to really do jack shit about it other than do what I've always done. Learn stuff and work. 

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MSC said:

Sorry for the tangents Charony. Just difficult to hide my despair and disappointment at how segregated everyone has become ideologically because of how the internet works now and my own lack of ability to really do jack shit about it other than do what I've always done. Learn stuff and work. 

No worries, I don't disagree. But expertise (at least in science) tends to coalesce around some kind of firm consensus, surrounded by wobblier, but still fairly bits and then areas where experts should state that things are speculative. I do know (especially with recent experience) that this is not always the case and some folks really are loud outside their field. So in that regard I understand that folks can be uncertain regarding who they should believe. However, that there is more recent trend to ignore consensus and expertise altogether and treat even the most ridiculous things as equivalent to even minimal levels of expertise. We went from opinions with insufficient data/understanding straight to 5G aliens did it.

And that part worries me, as it essentially renders facts entirely non-relevant.

[J.C.MacSwell]

21 hours ago, MSC said:

I mean you've got paid credentialed experts in most fields hired by some industry to downplay some messed up bullshit they are doing. 

Add to that algorithms kicking people toward what it thinks their preferences are anyway. I mean when you think about it, it's easy to understand why people either completely lack trust in or wholly believe whoever fits their idea of what an expert is. 

More and more I see this effect (I think it's this effect), especially on the younger generations. They're online and some bot is trying to get them to click on something, not necessarily even to get them to believe something but simply targeting what they already believe for the sake of getting the click so they can be exposed to some product or whatever. So they have this opinion, thought, or what have you...and it gets reinforced...probably in most cases no conspiracy to do it other than to simply get the click (for some monetary gain /advertisement or whatever)...but when they live online it gives them a very different sense of the balance of reality that we might have had at the same age...even if they are otherwise better informed than we were given all the extra online information (true or otherwise). Distorted reality.

Edited May 11 by J.C.MacSwell

[MSC]

23 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

More and more I see this effect (I think it's this effect), especially on the younger generations. They're online and some bot is trying to get them to click on something, not necessarily even to get them to believe something but simply targeting what they already believe for the sake of getting the click so they can be exposed to some product or whatever. So they have this opinion, thought, or what have you...and it gets reinforced...probably in most cases no conspiracy to do it other than to simply get the click (for some monetary gain /advertisement or whatever)...but when they live online it gives them a very different sense of the balance of reality that we might have had at the same age...even if they are otherwise better informed than we were given all the extra online information (true or otherwise). Distorted reality.

You've hit on the underlying destruction of will and hogging of our time that is fundamental to the proto-psychology of these technologies. Manipulation for the sake of content engagement, which in turn gives them more data, which leads to more effective manipulation. People may be making whackadoodle conspiracy theories but the tech is pushing people toward it just to get them to look at the screen more. How do you combat that when disinformation seems to spread faster and further than truth and few can actually comprehend peer reviewed research to identify truth in it anyway?

[Scientific_potato]

 

On 5/10/2024 at 8:48 PM, MSC said:

You've hit on the underlying destruction of will and hogging of our time that is fundamental to the proto-psychology of these technologies. Manipulation for the sake of content engagement, which in turn gives them more data, which leads to more effective manipulation. People may be making whackadoodle conspiracy theories but the tech is pushing people toward it just to get them to look at the screen more. How do you combat that when disinformation seems to spread faster and further than truth and few can actually comprehend peer reviewed research to identify truth in it anyway?

When i get recommended something online i usually tend to find an opposing view maybe a month-year later. 
Maybe its not the technology thats the problem but just how humans are? we are more likely to read something that aligns with our point of view than something that doesn't. its not exclusive to youtube videos. although i do acknowledge how the algorithm likes to get you to click stuff and showing things you already believe helps with that.
im hoping that by me showing the algorithm that i like to see both sides (by clicking on opposing videos every once in a while) that it shows me more of the story.
(my thoughts might not be fully formed because i usually have trouble displaying my thoughts in anything other than my own head)
*eating popcorn while watching a video that says hexagons are not the bestagons* "mmm, the action" (this is a reference to cgp grey's video and the video that debunks it)

notice how i shared with you an opposing viewpoint to cgp grey's video, you can learn opposing viewpoints from your friends (though we arent friends and you havent seen cgp grey's video, im using it as an example) making friends with people that have opposing views to you while learning how to live with them is important if you favor seeing other peoples opinions.
(sorry if my arguments seem weak, im new here and all i know comes from youtube videos. take what i have to say with a grain of salt or two)

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, Scientific_potato said:

When i get recommended something online i usually tend to find an opposing view maybe a month-year later. 

I wonder whether that is because the views are sufficiently superficial that things could be argued either way? The issue I feel is that generally speaking a consensus can only form if folks use the same basis, and arrive at least at a set of conclusions. One might disagree in the areas of uncertainties, but at least agree on the same set of facts. This, however, is no longer the case. Especially when we look at social media, including youtube.

I think when wikipedia came up tech folks argued that social media and all the free information would disrupt science and our general understanding of the world. I think they were right, just not in the way they thought they would be.

[Scientific_potato]

I think that (specific to BLM) people are afraid they'll be thought of less because of the other party might be seen as more than them
like as if you could overdo the movements and reverse the roles instead of make them equal (making us equal is the entire point of the organization)
Now as to ANTIFA, i have no idea... maybe they like the idea of them being the only people allowed to live in the country? idk, i'd have to do more "research" (watch a simplified youtube video of both opinions) on it. or just read wikipedia

[MSC]

On 5/16/2024 at 1:16 PM, Scientific_potato said:

Maybe its not the technology thats the problem but just how humans are?

Firstly, I loved the two videos you shared! They were a lot of fun.

Now the reason I honed in on this particular question of yours; it's most definitely both. Due to research in consume psychology, a lot of our devices and the software that runs them, are designed to take advantage of human psychology via dopamine feedback loops. From the way notifications work to the sounds the UI makes etc, then layer on top of that search algorithms. These devices are essentially like a button that you can press to give yourself a dopamine fix or if dopamine isn't your cup of tea and you're more of a stress addict, you can access cortisol whenever you want with these devices too. 

How humans are is what gave rise to the problem of how powerful these devices are, but serious consideration has been made with these design choices to maximize profit over human betterment or improving quality of life. The devices can still do that, but you have to wade through all the manipulation and avoid all the distractions in the process. The internet especially is the quintessential field of pig shit that someone dropped a few precious gems into at this point. Sure the gems are there, but how much pig shit can a person wade through to find them? And what do you do about all the people around you in the field who think they've found a gem and are holding up a turd? 

On 5/17/2024 at 10:55 AM, Scientific_potato said:

Now as to ANTIFA, i have no idea... maybe they like the idea of them being the only people allowed to live in the country? idk, i'd have to do more "research" (watch a simplified youtube video of both opinions) on it. or just read wikipedia

Yeah it sounds like you have a lot of reading up to do on anti-fascism but it is a core principle of a functioning democracy, complete or representative. It isn't a group or a movement it's a response to the threat of authoritarian dictatorships who would silence public dessent with violent suppression to create a centralized autocracy under them. 

[ImplicitDemands]

4 hours ago, MSC said:

Firstly, I loved the two videos you shared! They were a lot of fun.

Now the reason I honed in on this particular question of yours; it's most definitely both. Due to research in consume psychology, a lot of our devices and the software that runs them, are designed to take advantage of human psychology via dopamine feedback loops. From the way notifications work to the sounds the UI makes etc, then layer on top of that search algorithms. These devices are essentially like a button that you can press to give yourself a dopamine fix or if dopamine isn't your cup of tea and you're more of a stress addict, you can access cortisol whenever you want with these devices too. 

How humans are is what gave rise to the problem of how powerful these devices are, but serious consideration has been made with these design choices to maximize profit over human betterment or improving quality of life. The devices can still do that, but you have to wade through all the manipulation and avoid all the distractions in the process. The internet especially is the quintessential field of pig shit that someone dropped a few precious gems into at this point. Sure the gems are there, but how much pig shit can a person wade through to find them? And what do you do about all the people around you in the field who think they've found a gem and are holding up a turd? 

Yeah it sounds like you have a lot of reading up to do on anti-fascism but it is a core principle of a functioning democracy, complete or representative. It isn't a group or a movement it's a response to the threat of authoritarian dictatorships who would silence public dessent with violent suppression to create a centralized autocracy under them. 

UI tech is the most essential part of life for me. I can watch any show or film at the push of a button, I can live my life vicariously through it since I'm so socially bottlenecked and displaced in society, I can play some really entertaining games on the play-station. But ultimately I use it to store information so not everything has to be confined to my secret black binder, I can scatter pertinent info from that secret binder or on various electronic devices. I only need to memorize one thing in my head really the rest can be picked up from what I've stored. And thanks to the internet if a device breaks I can always recover it thanks to gmail. 

[MigL]

This forum, and a couple of others, are the only social media I participate in.
Mostly because there are always opposing views presented, and discussed ( if not, I do my best to provide them 😄 ).

No Facebook, Instagram, X, etc.

The saying used to be 
"Think for yourself, before someone else does it for you"
It has now been amended to
"Think for yourself, before the algorithm does it for you"

Incidentally, most sites keep track of your 'preferences' through cookies.
After a couple of searches, YouTube's algorithm will 'target' you with related subjects.
Even the freakin' weather channel does that.
Clean out your cookies on a regular basis ( I use Ccleaner ), and you won't have that problem.

Edited May 20 by MigL

[Scientific_potato]

9 hours ago, MigL said:

This forum, and a couple of others, are the only social media I participate in.
Mostly because there are always opposing views presented, and discussed ( if not, I do my best to provide them 😄 ).

No Facebook, Instagram, X, etc.

The saying used to be 
"Think for yourself, before someone else does it for you"
It has now been amended to
"Think for yourself, before the algorithm does it for you"

Incidentally, most sites keep track of your 'preferences' through cookies.
After a couple of searches, YouTube's algorithm will 'target' you with related subjects.
Even the freakin' weather channel does that.
Clean out your cookies on a regular basis ( I use Ccleaner ), and you won't have that problem.

Sometimes not thinking for yourself and keeping an open mind is good too, though im not sure if i understood what you said.
I used to go on the rational animations discord because of the same reasons.
(Oh and could you please show me the other forums?)