Mouth antiseptic rinse...

[Externet]

Hi.
Is it safe to assume these products typically calling for 21% alcohol in the ingredients label to be ethanol and not methanol or other, even when not intended to ingest ?

[MigL]

You're not supposed to swallow it ...

Besides, the yellow regular Listerine tastes awful, and makes you throw up if swallowed.
But it works better than those 'candy-ass' blue/green colored ones that don't burn.

Ingredients are on the label, to finally answer your question 🙂 .

[CharonY]

Also, methanol is toxic and can be absorbed through skin.

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Externet said:

Hi.
Is it safe to assume these products typically calling for 21% alcohol in the ingredients label to be ethanol and not methanol or other, even when not intended to ingest ?

Seeing as there is a clear risk of accidental swallowing, I find it inconceivable that a dangerous poison like methanol would be used.

[Luc Turpin]

Regular use of a mouthwash is not recommended as it will also kill off the good bacteria on your tongue that are needed to metabolize nitrates from nitrate-rich vegetables (e.g. green vegetable). Nitrates are beneficial to the cardiovascular system as they dilate arteries and improve blood circulation. Athletes use beet juice nitrate boosters to enhance aerobic capacity. If they gargle with mouthwash, they lose the edge.
 

Video: (just click anywhere on the page if you do not wish to subscribe, but want to see the video)

 https://nutritionfacts.org/video/antibacterial-toothpaste-harmful-helpful-or-harmless/

 

References:

1-      Bondonno CP, Liu AH, Croft KD, et al. “Antibacterial mouthwash blunts oral nitrate reduction and increase blood pressure in treated hypertensive men and women”, AM J Hypertens. 2015;28(5)-5.

2-      Rosier BT, Buetas E, Moya-Gonzalvez EM, Artacho A. Mira A. “Nitrate as a potential prebiotic for the oral microbiome. Sci Rep. 2020;10(1):12895.

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

Nitrates are beneficial to the cardiovascular system as they dilate arteries and improve blood circulation.

It is actually not nitrate, as that would not require bacterial action. What I assume they refer to is reduction of nitrate by bacteria to nitrite and nitric oxide. The last one is associated with cardiovascular health. Without digging through lit I am not sure whether we can clearly state that the effect size is large enough to have broader scale health issues.

[Luc Turpin]

18 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It is actually not nitrate, as that would not require bacterial action. What I assume they refer to is reduction of nitrate by bacteria to nitrite and nitric oxide. The last one is associated with cardiovascular health. Without digging through lit I am not sure whether we can clearly state that the effect size is large enough to have broader scale health issues.

Please see diagram 

Or video

 https://nutritionfacts.org/video/antibacterial-toothpaste-harmful-helpful-or-harmless/

As for health benefits, here is a study of many on the topic with significant results.

The study also showed that people who consume moderate to high amounts of nitrate-rich vegetables showed these specific benefits:

• A 15% lower risk of heart failure
• A 12% lower risk of heart disease
• A 17% lower risk of stroke

https://www.verywellhealth.com/nitrates-5218792#:~:text=Benefits of Nitrates&text=5 The study also showed,17% lower risk of stroke

A good read on all matters related to health is "How not to Age" by Michael Gregger - 13,000 references

 

You were correct

On the first part, but not on the second part

[CharonY]

Please check your image and the refs you posted. The bioactive molecule is mostly NO. If it was just nitrate, nitrate reducing bacteria would play no role and the issue with mouthwash would make no sense.

[exchemist]

6 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

Please see diagram 

Or video

 https://nutritionfacts.org/video/antibacterial-toothpaste-harmful-helpful-or-harmless/

As for health benefits, here is a study of many on the topic with significant results.

The study also showed that people who consume moderate to high amounts of nitrate-rich vegetables showed these specific benefits:

• A 15% lower risk of heart failure
• A 12% lower risk of heart disease
• A 17% lower risk of stroke

https://www.verywellhealth.com/nitrates-5218792#:~:text=Benefits of Nitrates&text=5 The study also showed,17% lower risk of stroke

A good read on all matters related to health is "How not to Age" by Michael Gregger - 13,000 references

 

You were correct

On the first part, but not on the second part

But presumably one can’t attribute the health benefits of these vegetables entirely to the NO that may be produced, via interaction with nitrate-reducing bacteria. My understanding is that vegetables  in the diet protect against these cardiovascular conditions via a number of effects, ranging from more fibre that promotes excretion of more bile acids derived from cholesterol, to antioxidant compounds, sources of vitamins, etc.

[Luc Turpin]

4 hours ago, CharonY said:

Please check your image and the refs you posted. The bioactive molecule is mostly NO. If it was just nitrate, nitrate reducing bacteria would play no role and the issue with mouthwash would make no sense.

As stated in my first response to you, "correct on the first part".

NO "is" the active compound, but derived from nitrates.

So, again, you are correct.

And I am also correct, because you would not get to the beneficial vasodilation effect of NO and the health benefits that this entails without nitrates.

Took my cue to use "nitrates" from this chapter in Dr. Greger's book: "Vegetable Nitrates to Combat Artery Aging".-"A meta-analysis of a dozen randomized, controlled human trails found that between two-thirds of a cup to two cups of cooked greens worth of nitrates significantly improved artery functions in the arm and legs or legs, and...., this translates into clinical benefit, for example, enabling peripheral artery disease patients to walk 18 percent longer without pain".

The two references provided in my original post also make mention of nitrates in their tittles, not NO.

The diagram provided in my post before this one was to explain in more detail the pathway to NO, not to dispute your assertion.

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

But presumably one can’t attribute the health benefits of these vegetables entirely to the NO that may be produced, via interaction with nitrate-reducing bacteria. My understanding is that vegetables  in the diet protect against these cardiovascular conditions via a number of effects, ranging from more fibre that promotes excretion of more bile acids derived from cholesterol, to antioxidant compounds, sources of vitamins, etc.

Your statement is entirely correct. 

But if it enables "peripheral artery disease patients to walk 18 percent longer without pain", this then seems to show that it has some sort of an effect on health and wellbeing that is independent or additional to all of the other good stuff.

Compromised arterial functions occurs in many health issues.

Hope everyone is eating their veggies and not using mouthwash.

[TheVat]

Beet juice is great.  Associated with increased mitochondrial activity.  I find the lift is similar to a demitasse of coffee and seems to last most of the day.  

I recall Sterno aka Canned Heat was sometimes consumed during Prohibition in the US.  Denatured by adding methanol to the alcohol portion, plus a gelling agent, so that people would not drink it and (post Prohibition) the company didn't have to pay the alcohol tax.  But desperate people would squeeze out the gel through a sock and then drink the liquid, suffering toxicity and sometimes blindness.  I remember it was nicknamed "squeeze" because of the filtering method.

An amphoteric oxide was used to gel the mixture.  Which one IDK. 

Footnote:  I learned the term "squeeze" from Crichton's novel The Andromeda Strain, wherein the village drunk is a Sterno drinker, and as a result, one of the only survivors.  The alien bug is apparently not able to grow in a person who is acidotic, so the drunk and a screaming baby are the only survivors.  Methanol causes tissue acidosis.  

[CharonY]

8 hours ago, exchemist said:

But presumably one can’t attribute the health benefits of these vegetables entirely to the NO that may be produced, via interaction with nitrate-reducing bacteria. My understanding is that vegetables  in the diet protect against these cardiovascular conditions via a number of effects, ranging from more fibre that promotes excretion of more bile acids derived from cholesterol, to antioxidant compounds, sources of vitamins, etc.

No, but there is increasing evidence on the impact of nitric oxide deficiency on vascular health (as well as in the nervous system). I should add that the issue of nitrate reducers only came up in the context with antiseptic mouthwashes. To clear up some confusion, (also in response to Luc Turpin), there are generally two major routes of NO production. The first is produced by our bodies via the NOS pathway (derived from arginine). Nitric oxide itself regulated in part by oxidation to nitrate which contributes a bit to local nitrate pools. 

NOS-independent production can be initiated by commensals in the the mouth, which is mostly reduction of nitrate to nitrite, and the latter can be further reduced to NO non-enzymatically (which would also apply to dietary nitrite). In parallel, gut bacteria are also known to reduce nitrate, but in this case completely to NO. Going back to OP, there is limited data that suggest that mouth wash would significantly disrupt NO metabolism, though it certainly could make things worse for folks who already have issues in that regard.

[exchemist]

15 minutes ago, CharonY said:

No, but there is increasing evidence on the impact of nitric oxide deficiency on vascular health (as well as in the nervous system). I should add that the issue of nitrate reducers only came up in the context with antiseptic mouthwashes. To clear up some confusion, (also in response to Luc Turpin), there are generally two major routes of NO production. The first is produced by our bodies via the NOS pathway (derived from arginine). Nitric oxide itself regulated in part by oxidation to nitrate which contributes a bit to local nitrate pools. 

NOS-independent production can be initiated by commensals in the the mouth, which is mostly reduction of nitrate to nitrite, and the latter can be further reduced to NO non-enzymatically (which would also apply to dietary nitrite). In parallel, gut bacteria are also known to reduce nitrate, but in this case completely to NO. Going back to OP, there is limited data that suggest that mouth wash would significantly disrupt NO metabolism, though it certainly could make things worse for folks who already have issues in that regard.

Interesting. Yet nitrites as preservatives, e.g. in cured meat products, are regarded as unhealthy, I gather. But that, I dimly seem to  recall, is due not to the nitrites per se but to the nitrosamines they produce in the meat, which are possible carcinogens. If I’ve remembered correctly how this works…

(Have to confess my son and I have been eating French rosette sausage and Italian coppa for lunch most days in the last fortnight, while we are on holiday in Brittany, promoting the odd twinge of conscience.)

[CharonY]

17 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Interesting. Yet nitrites as preservatives, e.g. in cured meat products, are regarded as unhealthy, I gather. But that, I dimly seem to  recall, is due not to the nitrites per se but to the nitrosamines they produce in the meat, which are possible carcinogens. If I’ve remembered correctly how this works…

(Have to confess my son and I have been eating French rosette sausage and Italian coppa for lunch most days in the last fortnight, while we are on holiday in Brittany, promoting the odd twinge of conscience.)

Yes it is mostly related to nitrosamines. The thinking has shifted a bit in the last years, it seems and there is some lit suggesting that cured meats are not necessarily a higher health risk than regular meat. OTOH the health baseline has shifted a bit with general overconsumption of meat as well as ubiquitous presence of overprocessed foods so I guess that particular risk might be difficult to tease out. Moreover, in a healthy diet nitrates are generally derived from plant material (ca. 5% would be meat-derived). Also, quite a few traditionally cured meats are salted and dry-cured (e.g. capocollo). 

[exchemist]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

Yes it is mostly related to nitrosamines. The thinking has shifted a bit in the last years, it seems and there is some lit suggesting that cured meats are not necessarily a higher health risk than regular meat. OTOH the health baseline has shifted a bit with general overconsumption of meat as well as ubiquitous presence of overprocessed foods so I guess that particular risk might be difficult to tease out. Moreover, in a healthy diet nitrates are generally derived from plant material (ca. 5% would be meat-derived). Also, quite a few traditionally cured meats are salted and dry-cured (e.g. capocollo). 

I see capocolla = coppa, so we should be OK with that at least. I would  be less confident about Carrefour (French hypermarket chain) rosette beng nitrate free though. Saltpetre has been a traditional preservative for centuries, after all, though not nitrites.

[John Cuthber]

The best documented effect of nitrites in the diet is their reaction with secondary amines to produce nitrosamines which are carcinogenic.

Meanwhile, back at the actual question, it's ethanol.

[Luc Turpin]

49 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

The best documented effect of nitrites in the diet is their reaction with secondary amines to produce nitrosamines which are carcinogenic.

Meanwhile, back at the actual question, it's ethanol.

I was thinking about your comment on nitrosamines and had prepared a response to Charon Y containing evidence that mouthwash is detrimental to NO metabolism, and also stating that there is overwhelming evidence on the harmful effects of processed meat and meat consumption in general on health. However, as you indicated, we are far off topic, so I will not post my original text.

Thanks for the reminder and for answering the original question.

[LuckyR]

On 5/29/2024 at 8:34 AM, CharonY said:

No, but there is increasing evidence on the impact of nitric oxide deficiency on vascular health (as well as in the nervous system). I should add that the issue of nitrate reducers only came up in the context with antiseptic mouthwashes. To clear up some confusion, (also in response to Luc Turpin), there are generally two major routes of NO production. The first is produced by our bodies via the NOS pathway (derived from arginine). Nitric oxide itself regulated in part by oxidation to nitrate which contributes a bit to local nitrate pools. 

NOS-independent production can be initiated by commensals in the the mouth, which is mostly reduction of nitrate to nitrite, and the latter can be further reduced to NO non-enzymatically (which would also apply to dietary nitrite). In parallel, gut bacteria are also known to reduce nitrate, but in this case completely to NO. Going back to OP, there is limited data that suggest that mouth wash would significantly disrupt NO metabolism, though it certainly could make things worse for folks who already have issues in that regard.

Nice summary, thus why I supplement with arginine/citrulline (not beets).