dam building dinosaurs?

[tsmspace]

I was wondering if perhaps triceratops was a dam-building animal. 

Elephants apparently build dams by pushing longs into streams with their tusks. This results in ponds and reservoirs that can contain water long after the streams have dried up. 

Triceratops may have: 

- used its beak to chew on tough materials such as roots or woody plants

- pushed down large plants such as tree ferns to access the leaves 

- could this mean that it would be as simple as pushing large woody plants into streams to make a pond? Is it possible that there could be evidence of such a behavior? Has anyone found triceratops prints and drag marks nearby reservoir or wetland style silt deposits? 

 

 

[Moontanman]

15 hours ago, tsmspace said:

I was wondering if perhaps triceratops was a dam-building animal. 

Elephants apparently build dams by pushing longs into streams with their tusks. This results in ponds and reservoirs that can contain water long after the streams have dried up. 

I've never read that, do you have a citation? 

15 hours ago, tsmspace said:

Triceratops may have: 

- used its beak to chew on tough materials such as roots or woody plants

- pushed down large plants such as tree ferns to access the leaves 

- could this mean that it would be as simple as pushing large woody plants into streams to make a pond? Is it possible that there could be evidence of such a behavior? Has anyone found triceratops prints and drag marks nearby reservoir or wetland style silt deposits? 

Triceratops was large enough to down trees like an elephant of today and it's not unreasonable to think they may have done that but the idea of dam building by an animal with such a small brain and the mental capacity that is thought to go along with that small brain would make such long range planning unlikely IMHO. Has there ever been any evidence to suggest dam building among dinosaurs?

I think "may have" is the key in this sentence.  

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

I've never read that, do you have a citation? 

Triceratops was large enough to down trees like an elephant of today and it's not unreasonable to think they may have done that but the idea of dam building by an animal with such a small brain and the mental capacity that is thought to go along with that small brain would make such long range planning unlikely IMHO. Has there ever been any evidence to suggest dam building among dinosaurs?

I think "may have" is the key in this sentence.  

Beavers have a pretty small brain, but I suspect that any elephants’ blocking of waterways by pushing trees into it is accidental rather than instinct. Elephants require a lot of food, so they wander around. Triceratops probably were similar. What would be the advantage of a dam?

[tsmspace]

6 hours ago, Moontanman said:

I've never read that, do you have a citation? 

Triceratops was large enough to down trees like an elephant of today and it's not unreasonable to think they may have done that but the idea of dam building by an animal with such a small brain and the mental capacity that is thought to go along with that small brain would make such long range planning unlikely IMHO. Has there ever been any evidence to suggest dam building among dinosaurs?

I think "may have" is the key in this sentence.  

yes so on reddit people were in quite an uproar about the elephants thing, because no one can find a "peer reviewed article" ... it was just on the internet idk. And it didn't say "dams" it said pushed trees into streams. I actually recall seeing this in videos from childhood, where like national geographic shows would say elephants had even been observed pushing trees into streams to make a reservoir that would work like a watering hole. But no,, I have no "citeable source". 

 

yes and as far as triceratops environment,, well plants do well to make wetlands on their own. 

[swansont]

16 minutes ago, tsmspace said:

yes and as far as triceratops environment,, well plants do well to make wetlands on their own. 

Yes, and plants don’t move around. 

Quote

national geographic shows would say elephants had even been observed pushing trees into streams to make a reservoir that would work like a watering hole.

A bunch of trees is still rather porous, so there would need to be a bunch of water flowing through to make a reservoir. i.e . there’s water there already. 

Can one say for sure this wasn’t coincidental?

[tsmspace]

Well so I do believe the suggestion is that large flat areas with streams running through them would be able to contain water because an obstruction would result in that water spilling into areas that don't so quickly drain. Actually in the savannah this does happen naturally where during the wet season, some water floods lower lying areas and doesn't drain, so I suppose the idea is that strategically placed obstructions would encourage this flooding. 

 

I do know that humans used to put a lot of logs into streams. There are various reasons why they would do it, but it was something people would do a lot. For example the classic bridge log,, but also as a kind of dam that makes for a fishing spot. It could be one of these things where people saw elephants copying their behavior a-back in the day idk. I will argue that it seems unlikely that one would find multiple references to the idea on the internet if the idea just spontaneously appeared as a hoax. I would think that at least some people have been saying elephants do this for generations for the idea to be present where it is,, , and again I do recall seeing it in videos if I'm not remembering incorrectly. The kinds of videos that we watched in school. 

that was back when dimetrodon was a dinosaur, though. And dimetrodon was a dinosaur for over 100 years. (( that means it still is, because that's how english works. See in the 80's phylogeny came to power, and people went around saying dinosaur could no longer be used for "all ancient giant lizards" ,, and there was this period where some dictionary's presented both definitions and some only had the new phylogeny definition, which is basically all you find today... anyway,, dimetrodon is a dinosaur, whether or not elephants have ever actually been observed pushing logs into streams)) 

[Moontanman]

5 hours ago, swansont said:

Beavers have a pretty small brain, but I suspect that any elephants’ blocking of waterways by pushing trees into it is accidental rather than instinct. Elephants require a lot of food, so they wander around. Triceratops probably were similar. What would be the advantage of a dam?

I should have said brain to size ratio, an elephant has a huge brain to size ratio compared to a triceratops but I've not seen anything to indicate either built dams with any intent or future planning. Beaver do how ever build dams specifically to make their lives better, whether or not they actually have the future in mind is debatable. 

The phrasing of the OP indicated some intent to build a dam not accidentally dam up a stream. 

45 minutes ago, tsmspace said:

Well so I do believe the suggestion is that large flat areas with streams running through them would be able to contain water because an obstruction would result in that water spilling into areas that don't so quickly drain. Actually in the savannah this does happen naturally where during the wet season, some water floods lower lying areas and doesn't drain, so I suppose the idea is that strategically placed obstructions would encourage this flooding. 

Are you suggesting that triceratops pushed down trees with the intent to dam up a stream? 

45 minutes ago, tsmspace said:

 

I do know that humans used to put a lot of logs into streams. There are various reasons why they would do it, but it was something people would do a lot. For example the classic bridge log,, but also as a kind of dam that makes for a fishing spot. It could be one of these things where people saw elephants copying their behavior a-back in the day idk. I will argue that it seems unlikely that one would find multiple references to the idea on the internet if the idea just spontaneously appeared as a hoax. I would think that at least some people have been saying elephants do this for generations for the idea to be present where it is,, , and again I do recall seeing it in videos if I'm not remembering incorrectly. The kinds of videos that we watched in school. 

I am not saying this is a hoax, people mistakenly attribute intent to things all the time without justification but not to intentionally mislead. 

45 minutes ago, tsmspace said:

that was back when dimetrodon was a dinosaur, though. And dimetrodon was a dinosaur for over 100 years. (( that means it still is, because that's how english works. See in the 80's phylogeny came to power, and people went around saying dinosaur could no longer be used for "all ancient giant lizards" ,, and there was this period where some dictionary's presented both definitions and some only had the new phylogeny definition, which is basically all you find today... anyway,, dimetrodon is a dinosaur, whether or not elephants have ever actually been observed pushing logs into streams)) 

I'm not sure why you brought this up but dimetrodon was a synapsid like you and me, triceratops and every other dinosaur were diapsids like crocodiles, lizards and birds.  

[tsmspace]

10 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

 

I'm not sure why you brought this up but dimetrodon was a synapsid like you and me, triceratops and every other dinosaur were diapsids like crocodiles, lizards and birds.  

 

synapsid or diapsid had nothing to do with whether or not it was a dinosaur,, dinosaur the word was invented to replace dragon. Dimetrodon was first described 2 years later, and was a dinosaur. Much later in history, over 100 years later, phylogeny became the mainstream and primary methodology for sorting animals genealogically, and dinosauria is the name of one of the clades. There was a number of years when everyone said that doesn't mean dimetrodon isn't a dinosaur, it's just not in the familia dinosaria, because dinosaur still also meant "giant terrible ancient extinct lizard"... what this means is that although according to phylogeny, modern birds are dinosaurs, according to the definition of dinosaur when the word was invented ,, so "true" dinosaurs ,, you can only be a dinosaur if you are extinct around 66 million years ago, and can be counted as a terrible lizard. Only more recently did people go on a campaign trying to eliminate the "true" definition for the word dinosaur. 

 

 

and no, I'm not suggesting anything, I'm wondering if it is even possible to suggest that any dinosaurs at all,, or for that matter any animals at all that lived during the time of dinosaurs, were engaged in dam building that might have been impactful. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

Beaver do how ever build dams specifically to make their lives better, whether or not they actually have the future in mind is debatable. 

Beavers that have been raised in captivity have been observed to build dam-like structures even when there is no water, so for them it seems the instinct in built-in. 

[Ken Fabian]

An unanswerable question. It seems unlikely. Even very unlikely. Apart from beavers and humans not sure any make dams, so an uncommon behavior. Some will dig for water and leave holes that fill with water. Was that intentional? Elephants seem like ones that could have the intelligence for that to be intentional behavior. But how would we ever know, even with existing animals that we can observe?

"Dinosaurs" of today do make nests and sometimes use tools (with small, different brains) - how much better or worse than their ancestors we don't know. That some animals can ape behaviors they observe has been observed but unless they get benefits from it those behaviors aren't going to persist.

As an aside, there are benefits in seasonally dry environments to slowing water flows; there are advocates of doing that, including by pushing logs into watercourses. It will retain water holes longer but also slows the loss of underground water in adjoining soils, which gives more plant growth and food. Behaviors that lead to more food can develop even without conscious awareness of it.