Who do I vote for to aid singles suffering involuntary celibacy

[ImplicitDemands]

In a country that charges for everything, one has to worry about food first and foremost. The challenge of finding a significant other especially if you are as picky as me really is a lot more tricky AND potentially dangerous. You know every dating service will charge large arbitrary sums and it is difficult enough with the compounding charges for transportation, food, and shelter then you have to add up owning a room, or maybe if you're wealthy a home. Occupations that provide all of this don't leave any free-time so you need a dating service that rigs the random chaos of normal social interaction what with gender segregation being a real thing. Gender segregation has its pros, I don't want anyone lowering standards and that's exactly what will happen if you don't gender segregate and you'll miss out. I almost should be a political problem, if not the primary cause of war throughout human history even though I've never heard it addressed as such publicly.  Food, transportation, and shelter should be a lot easier or less of a cause for warfare but even these three basal elements of quality of life are subject to petty synthetic scarcity, almost as a way to prevent dating. It seems to be the primary cause of any other form of poverty, class dominance is probably secretly a dating driven tactic. The number of armed forces is about twice the number of males that are incarcerated. But if it were just male armed forces, that number would be different, then you add the police force and see how it is possible to contain that kind of number for your own dating prospects. It's the only possible explanation for why the world is like this, same reason to encamp Jews in Nazi Germany, keep them from dating prospects. If you really think about how very short our lives are, that is a big factor in why we'd be driven to behave like this. It is desperation, and is sexually driven, just compounded by aging. 

Anyway, 13 significant years that counted, as an incel gives me some insight into the problem. I'm not technically a virgin but if you want to count lowering my standards as some exclusionary factor from the definition of involuntary celibacy you can try and argue that. I'm 31, looking like this I don't look quite that old, corroborating with those I talk to I have an extra 6 years, primarily listening to younger feedback, looking about 25. Ya know going another 6 years as an incel might be possible, I have seen certain men looking okay at 40, Brad Pitt prime example https://people.com/celebrity/brad-pitt-says-he-liked-turning-40/ . But this has to stop, is there some political way to solve a Maslow's hierarchy crisis. I haven't voted in years, but I'd vote if some candidate offered some service like that. However, I do believe sex is exactly what warfare, policing, money AND politics are all based off of in the first place, but in a very discrete way. Maybe discrete to a younger audience, but to the elders this is probably common fricken knowledge. 

Edited June 14 by ImplicitDemands

[iNow]

Nobody you vote for will change that, nor can they nor should they. Find a hobby or a sport and socialize. 

[StringJunky]

 Women are not from Outer Space. Think of them as people, not objects.

Edited June 14 by StringJunky

[exchemist]

4 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

In a country that charges for everything, one has to worry about food first and foremost. The challenge of finding a significant other especially if you are as picky as me really is a lot more tricky AND potentially dangerous. You know every dating service will charge large arbitrary sums and it is difficult enough with the compounding charges for transportation, food, and shelter then you have to add up owning a room, or maybe if you're wealthy a home. Occupations that provide all of this don't leave any free-time so you need a dating service that rigs the random chaos of normal social interaction what with gender segregation being a real thing. Gender segregation has its pros, I don't want anyone lowering standards and that's exactly what will happen if you don't gender segregate and you'll miss out. I almost should be a political problem, if not the primary cause of war throughout human history even though I've never heard it addressed as such publicly.  Food, transportation, and shelter should be a lot easier or less of a cause for warfare but even these three basal elements of quality of life are subject to petty synthetic scarcity, almost as a way to prevent dating. It seems to be the primary cause of any other form of poverty, class dominance is probably secretly a dating driven tactic. The number of armed forces is about twice the number of males that are incarcerated. But if it were just male armed forces, that number would be different, then you add the police force and see how it is possible to contain that kind of number for your own dating prospects. It's the only possible explanation for why the world is like this, same reason to encamp Jews in Nazi Germany, keep them from dating prospects. If you really think about how very short our lives are, that is a big factor in why we'd be driven to behave like this. It is desperation, and is sexually driven, just compounded by aging. 

Anyway, 13 significant years that counted, as an incel gives me some insight into the problem. I'm not technically a virgin but if you want to count lowering my standards as some exclusionary factor from the definition of involuntary celibacy you can try and argue that. I'm 31, looking like this I don't look quite that old, corroborating with those I talk to I have an extra 6 years, primarily listening to younger feedback, looking about 25. Ya know going another 6 years as an incel might be possible, I have seen certain men looking okay at 40, Brad Pitt prime example https://people.com/celebrity/brad-pitt-says-he-liked-turning-40/ . But this has to stop, is there some political way to solve a Maslow's hierarchy crisis. I haven't voted in years, but I'd vote if some candidate offered some service like that. However, I do believe sex is exactly what warfare, policing, money AND politics are all based off of in the first place, but in a very discrete way. Maybe discrete to a younger audience, but to the elders this is probably common fricken knowledge. 

This is self-pitying nonsense. It is not the job of national politics to sort out your love life. 

If you are motivated you can find time to cultivate a social hobby, perhaps get in shape, at least a bit (sport?), which will improve your mood and make you more attractive -  and above all socialise. Most people meet partners through work, social activities or just at the supermarket. Dating agencies may have their place but there'a risk they encourage "meat market" thinking about the opposite sex - which makes you highly unattractive, needless to say.  If I think back to how I have met girls in my life (I'm now almost 70), 5 were through work, 4 were through invitations to parties or other social events, one was through the rowing club, another through the sailing club, 2 while travelling.   Don't sit at home moping: get out there, talk to people and when you do, show an interest in them. 

[swansont]

I think that most singles “suffering” in this way blame everyone but themselves for their situation, but that’s just another symptom of the brand of narcissism involved. Legislation isn’t going to fix this, it’s a self-improvement issue.

[Phi for All]

I don't know much about incels. What I've heard leads me to think that these men are trying to fit in to a patriarchal society that often treats women toxically, but they themselves aren't typically aggressive or toxic. The aggressive assholes are able to attract many women, while the incel sits alone, believing they would treat a woman much better. 

I'm probably completely off-base here, but it seems like incels are too focused on the kind of women who like aggressive men (and are turned off by anything else). If they could approach the ones who are turned off by toxicity, they'd probably fare much better socially. Also focusing on whether or not you're going to have sex with someone may not be the best social strategy.

And most importantly, if a woman doesn't want to have sex with you, you shouldn't need to tear her down to make yourself feel better. There is a small subset of humans who want to be around any of us, and an enormous subset that don't. Just keep swimming.

 

 

Politically, I wonder if our education system can be overhauled to address many mental health issues. Something tells me that early monitoring and intervention could help with some of these problems. I was a big fan of Love & Logic courses when my daughter was younger. They emphasized that the younger the child, the more monitoring they get vs zero responsibilities. As they grow, you give them more responsibility and monitor them less. I think this kind of dedicated approach could reduce the number of children who get caught up in depression and self-esteem problems.

[toucana]

 

 

I think this NCBI paper provides a relevant and useful precis of what lies behind the ‘Incel’ ideology mentioned in the OP

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9780135/

Probably the most surprising thing is that the Incel movement originally began in 1997 with a female student who created an online site called Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project which documented her struggles on the dating scene, and which soon became a popular hub and mutual support site for individuals with similar experiences. Alana subsequently found a partner and left the site in the hands of others, only to discover some years down the line that the group had splintered, and had been hijacked into a number of embittered male-only assemblies whose sexual frustrations were now often directed at the women who had ‘shunned’ them.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/woman-who-invented-incel-movement-interview-toronto-attack

The full extent of this transformation became clear in 2014 when a former college student called Elliot Rodger killed six people and injured 14 others in a mass attack at Isla Vista California near the University of California Santa Barbara before committing suicide himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_Rodger

Rodger had uploaded a video on YouTube called ‘Elliot Rodger’s Retribution’ detailing his plans, along with a 137 page manifesto titled ‘My Twisted World: The Story of Elliot Rodger’ lamenting his frustrations with being a virgin and explaining his motivations were to “punish” women for their lack of interest in him.

Elliot Rodger was subsequently lauded as a hero and ‘martyr’ by other members of the online Incel community -  including notably -  Alek Minassian a 25 y/o Toronto man who killed 11 pedestrians (9 of them women), and injured 15 other by driving a van along the sidewalks of Yonge St in April 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Toronto_van_attack

Minassian who was subsequently jailed for life told police that he was an Incel and described the attack as a continuation of the “incel rebellion” started by the late Elliot Rodger.

Three years later in August 2021 another mass killing by a self-styled Incel took place at Keyham Plymouth England. A 22 y/o man called Jake Davison shot 6 people in total  - including his own mother, and a 3 year old girl at random before killing himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_shooting

Checks of his online activities subsequently disclosed that he subscribed to Incel related content, and had posted YouTube videos about ‘the black pill worldview’ which is a favoured theme of Incel programming and propaganda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel#%22Red_pill%22_and_%22black_pill%22

In the wake of the Toronto van attack in 2018, Canadian authorities classfied militant Incel activity as misogyny terrorism. The views and values of Inceldom are more generally seen as a dangerous form of psychopathology whose adherents live within self-validating social bubbles and online echo-chambers that simply reinforce their own delusional and violent mysogonistic grievances.

Edited June 14 by toucana
Added link to Keyham Plymouth Shooting 2021

[MSC]

5 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I'm probably completely off-base here, but it seems like incels are too focused on the kind of women who like aggressive men

You're not off base but there is more to it. Subjective beauty standards plays a role in the minds of these men wherein because they are plastered with highly edited images and videos of models, actresses etc they believe this is the ONLY kind of desirable woman. Which they call a Stacey (I know, they can't even escape objectifying women and other men when explaining their ideology.) And in their mind any guy a Stacey is interested in, must be an asshole (Which they call a Chad). Why? The entirety of the incel ideology is based on the false premise that nice guys finish last and that women are turned on by asshole behaviour. So what do incels do? Double down on their asshole behaviour because they think it will "woo" women. Then what happens? They strike out again and again and again and although it's the asshole behaviour that is the contributing factor, they still see themselves as "nice guys" when in reality sincere kindness and care for someone is not something they are capable of showing to a potential love interest because they only see them as a means to an end. They were never "nice guys" only they and the mothers they still live with, think that. 

5 hours ago, toucana said:

The views and values of Inceldom are more generally seen as a dangerous form of psychopathology whose adherents live within self-validating social bubbles and online echo-chambers that simply reinforce their own delusional and violent mysogonistic grievances

Case and point; one of them had dinner with Trump and Kanye West and little known fact, used to be my nextdoor neighbour in Illinois. Oh I was raging when I heard about that. Bunch of journalists shoved a reveal all under my door and I spied on him a touch but got bored because he's quiet and keeps to himself when not doing those neo-nazi podcasts.

[Ken Fabian]

There are no school courses in social skills - nor much we would count as remedial ones (counseling, cognitive behavior therapy?) - but a lot of people could benefit from them. Assuming such skills can be understood, taught and learned.

[geordief]

31 minutes ago, Ken Fabian said:

There are no school courses in social skills - nor much we would count as remedial ones (counseling, cognitive behavior therapy?) - but a lot of people could benefit from them. Assuming such skills can be understood, taught and learned.

Is that what finishing schools   are for?

A finishing school for men might  fit the bill

 

Seems a bit like Fight Club for Toffs

https://www.britishbutlerinstitute.com/finishing-school-home/finishing-school-programmes/finishing-school-for-men/

 

 

[Ken Fabian]

 

23 minutes ago, geordief said:

Is that what finishing schools   are for?

A finishing school for men might  fit the bill

Might. Don't know how effective with "incel" syndrome sufferers. Having such courses for everyone who needs them, not just afford them (and want them) could be a stretch.

[geordief]

5 minutes ago, Ken Fabian said:

 

Might. Don't know how effective with "incel" syndrome sufferers. Having such courses for everyone who needs them, not just afford them (and want them) could be a stretch.

I suppose I was being facetious.

It is well worth considering if social skills  should be taught as part of the general curriculum.

I can see pros and cons (I would have run a mile-I was "expelled" from  the Boy Scouts for failing the  tidyness test   but others might have benefitted)

 

 

[Ken Fabian]

Not sure myself whether I was completely serious either. A question of to what extent people want to change themselves versus want others to change and treat them differently. Social anxieties have limited my potential but I still count myself fortunate and have led a good life; I can see how improving my social skills could have benefited me but better social skills of everyone else - a community wide improvement with others doing the work - is quite appealing. Easier.

[zapatos]

8 hours ago, toucana said:

Elliot Rodger was subsequently lauded as a hero and ‘martyr’ by other members of the online Incel community -  including notably -  Alek Minassian a 25 y/o Toronto man who killed 11 pedestrians (9 of them women), and injured 15 other by driving a van along the sidewalks of Yonge St in April 2018.

 

Given their behavior and the praise they receive from other incels, it makes me believe that women generally have pretty good radar on what type of men to avoid. Seems likely these men are misdirecting their anger at women when it should be directed inward for failing to be the type of man women might be interested in.

[swansont]

6 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Given their behavior and the praise they receive from other incels, it makes me believe that women generally have pretty good radar on what type of men to avoid. Seems likely these men are misdirecting their anger at women when it should be directed inward for failing to be the type of man women might be interested in.

It brings to mind the quote from Margaret Atwood — 'Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.'

[Alex_Krycek]

Mitch McConnell.  He's been involuntarily celibate for decades.  

[MigL]

There is no such thing as INvoluntary celibacy; it is all voluntary.
As a 65 year old single man, who has no problem finding company, I assure you, there are a lot of others looking for a 'little of that human touch'.
I would have been ashamed to write the post as you did.
Don't think of women as simply sexual partners, but as companions with whom you share many interests; you'll be surprised how well that works out.

[MSC]

6 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

There are no school courses in social skills - nor much we would count as remedial ones (counseling, cognitive behavior therapy?) - but a lot of people could benefit from them. Assuming such skills can be understood, taught and learned.

This is something I believe would be universally beneficial in schools and education. People have a fair number of moral blindspots and it's due in no small part to social skills being expected to be learned through implication instead of direct and explicit tutelage.

[Alex_Krycek]

@ImplicitDemands  Do you live in a city or small town?  How densely populated is the area where you live?

[TheVat]

11 hours ago, MSC said:

This is something I believe would be universally beneficial in schools and education. People have a fair number of moral blindspots and it's due in no small part to social skills being expected to be learned through implication instead of direct and explicit tutelage.

The thing about social skills is that learning them seems so critically dependent on entering into real but structured social situations.  I've wondered if some of the clubs (currently in more budgetary peril) in US primary schools sort of function (with an experienced adult supervising and stepping in) in that way.  Fine arts clubs (drama, dance, choral, e.g.) seemed to work well for that.

 

[orgotude]

On 6/13/2024 at 10:21 PM, ImplicitDemands said:

Food, transportation, and shelter should be a lot easier or less of a cause for warfare but even these three basal elements of quality of life are subject to petty synthetic scarcity, almost as a way to prevent dating. It seems to be the primary cause of any other form of poverty, class dominance is probably secretly a dating driven tactic. The number of armed forces is about twice the number of males that are incarcerated. But if it were just male armed forces, that number would be different, then you add the police force and see how it is possible to contain that kind of number for your own dating prospects. It's the only possible explanation for why the world is like this, same reason to encamp Jews in Nazi Germany, keep them from dating prospects. If you really think about how very short our lives are, that is a big factor in why we'd be driven to behave like this. It is desperation, and is sexually driven, just compounded by aging. 

[...]

However, I do believe sex is exactly what warfare, policing, money AND politics are all based off of in the first place, but in a very discrete way. Maybe discrete to a younger audience, but to the elders this is probably common fricken knowledge. 

Out of those 3 "basal elements of life" you mentioned, stable and exploitation free housing is the most cost-prohibitive.  More people are essentially barred from it than from food or transportation, by an order of millions.  I find it hard to explain why the US has allowed land and housing to become a cost-prohibitive, morality-free market investment scheme, where the purpose is to maximize monetary return, rather than make sure someone else who needs it occupies it after you die.   Especially given housing is necessary for the nuclear-style family reproduction the USA morally promotes.  Individual housing is somewhat also necessary for non-reproductive sex in the USA considering how stigmatized real-life-sex actually is, beyond all the titillating media.  These are moral contradictions that contribute to and cause many ills in society, including those who are negatively affected by incel.  Some countries solve this partially through forced inheritance and widespread public housing, the first of which the US does not have and the latter of which Nixon and Reagan gutted.

You suggest housing cost-prohibition may be partly for sexual reasons. I am open to the idea, but wonder why you think that.  The gutting of public housing, for example was first done, at least nominally, with a false justification that slums are worse than underhousing and homelessness.  The incel implications of relegating millions to their parents home perhaps was just an oversight?   Regardless, the poverty bigotry underlying public housing gutting is, in my opinion, based in the attitude of not wanting the poor to live freely and build a life for themselves.  This might include reproduction but I'm not sure.  If the reproductive concern is there from the "dominating classes" I think it would be more due to ideology than selfishness.  The "dominating classes" could guarantee everyone the "American dream", they simply choose not to.  Prior to the 1970s there was a eugenics movement in the USA, which included forced sterlization, but not explicitly forced involuntary celibacy beyond institutions. There is little, personal sexual benefit forr keeping others from reproducing in a mostly monogamous society, and the "blackpill" claim that the upper crust of society are all in polygamous harems is probably exaggerated at best.  Additionally, after birth control, there is little eugenic reason to keep the housing insecure from having sex, yet it is done implicitly anyway. 

If there is a sexual reason the "dominating classes" keep people housing insecure, I think it would be to force those without housing to sublimate their sexual desires into economic activity to afford housing, where, even if the incel "loses", the economy benefits.  So pro-economic-growth ideology might be an important factor.   I think everyone would agree that the US has a pro-economic-growth obsession, and that has at least some negative externalities.  Also, the USA might value work more than widespread sexual satisfaction.  Thereby making work to afford, a perhaps never achievable housing goal a more US-approved goal for the peasantry than seeking casual sex.

Regardless, to be the only one who actually answers your question in this thread, there was a US-centric political party explicitly for "incels", whose primary platform plank was universal housing accessibility, as well as the elimination of economic growth obsession.  https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://incelparty.win  The website was up for years but no longer resolves.

There are also some left-wing self-identified "incel" political parties in Russia, (almost all?) led or founded by Alex Podnebesny.  They are more misogynistic and less serious than the aforementioned US-centric party.  I don't think any of these parties have run candidates.  The Russian ones are more vanity and propaganda vehicles.  Alex would also likely risk his life by running, considering he has been arrested by authorities for advocating for unwanted celibates.  And prior to that, physically tortured by his local government for his environmental activism.

Edited June 15 by orgotude

[orgotude]

Lastly, there are some "short cut" or "band-aid" solutions for incel (or "involuntary celibacy" for those keen on broadbrushing with a small set of ideologies or forums) which are relatively easy to be voted through legislatures or ruled on positively in the courts.  Some have even been implemented, sometimes in the name of reducing involuntary celibacy.  One partial solution is government reimbursement for voluntary hookers among those who are incel due to not being able to move or with severe cognitive impairements.   This was done in the Netherlands between 1992-2018.  

The easiest band-aid near-solution, in my opinion, is to simply legalize brothels, which would dramatically reduce the real and implicit market cost of heterosexual sex, and could be accomplished without any reference to incel at all, given there is a whole feminist movement dedicated to legalizing certain forms of explicit sex trade on the basis of destigmatizing hookers.  This would also increase accessibility to heterosexual sex across the USA, given brothels are currently only legal in a few corners of Nevada.

Edited June 15 by orgotude

[MSC]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

in US primary schools sort of function (with an experienced adult supervising and stepping in) in that way.  Fine arts clubs (drama, dance, choral, e.g.) seemed to work well for that.

Oh absolutely they do and in regular classes teachers do plan on how to sort of pepper this sort of stuff into the curriculum but mostly through implication and leading, via individuals, the majority of, learned these things the same way (at the primary and secondary education level at least) and even when the desire to teach a different way by individual teachers is there, if it's not in the curriculum then it may not be in the cards. 

Child development itself also plays a role as obviously there is no way to explain to a child below a certain age (Science last I heard said faculties for logicial and critical thinking are physiologically under developed until around 7-8 as an average) social skills and morality. 

I'm of the opinion that memory plays a fundamental role to both logical and critical thinking faculties and that age appropriate repetitive exposure to explanation and talking  before 7 or 8 also helps. 

Underpinning this is that frankly when opening up these discussions you're either a stones throw away from Taboo or already talking taboo. A primary teacher won't  be socially uncomfortable talking about math in front of children but more uncomfortable explaining why Timmy shouldn't say mean things to Jimmy and instead just punish Timmy for a non explained moral mistake,while later not punishing Jimmy when he makes a math mistake with the mistake fully explained to him. Meanwhile Timmy is in the corner not learning math. 

Honestly, when I was in school, even asking why something was wrong would be cause for more punishment (because it's talking back) until you hit Highschool and have Religious and Moral studies class (in Scottish secular schools, religion was taught from a comparitive religion studies perspective not theological.) and it was one of the only venues open discussions about moral grey areas was really tolerated but I only had one good RME teacher who knew how to foster a good environment for it. One was just a horrible old catholic lady who scarred a few generations of Scottish highschoolers, may she burn in hell. 

This could make a good split thread. I was probably OT but I can't discuss incels for too long without getting nauseous and said what I had to say, others said it better, I'm all good on that. Told OP in a different thread to ditch the incel communities as they are bad for his health. He sounds like he's had a tough life and I'd rather try a talk down human to human approach rather than even dignify incel ideology with more discussion than it is worth. 

[MigL]

On 6/15/2024 at 2:41 PM, MSC said:

rather than even dignify incel ideology with more discussion than it is worth

Absolutely.
We've had discussion of educational solutions and political solutions ( even linking to the housing shortage ) when the problem is actually 'incel mentality', or ideology.
When someone says "I can't get laid, and its everyone else's fault", that is a mental problem.

Maybe that's part of the problem with the evolution of Western society.
When you are encouraged to believe you're not responsible for your own life situation, it is only a small step to believing that all bad situations are someone else's fault.

[geordief]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

Absolutely.
We've had discussion of educational solutions and political solutions ( even linking to the housing shortage ) when the problem is actually 'incel mentality', or ideology.
When someone says "I can't get laid, and its everyone else's fault", that is a mental problem.

Maybe that's part of the problem with the evolution of Western society.
When you are encouraged to believe you're not responsible for your own life situation, it is only a small step to believing that all bad situations are someone else's fault.

Maybe incels could be offered  subsidized transgender ops  as women never seem to have this problem?