Who do I vote for to aid singles suffering involuntary celibacy

[TheVat]

Maybe stop theorizing and just approach woman as real people with an attitude of openness.   Nurture a sense of humor, don't take yourself so seriously, cultivate friendship rather than obsess over romance.   Stop intellectualizing and just listen.  

10 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

I'm ultra sensitive to these things, and it is maddening.

Knock it off.   Get your gaze out of your navel.

10 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

and part of the reason I don't share things is because it's really not effective

Srop trying to effect.  We all need friends.  We make friends by sharing things and being ourselves.  If you are honest in showing who you are then someone will appreciate that, even if you aren't the hero of your tale.  And if they don't appreciate that, then move on: they don't get you and are not worth your time.  

[dimreepr]

18 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Maybe stop theorizing and just approach woman as real people with an attitude of openness.   Nurture a sense of humor, don't take yourself so seriously, cultivate friendship rather than obsess over romance.   Stop intellectualizing and just listen.  

Knock it off.   Get your gaze out of your navel.

Srop trying to effect.  We all need friends.  We make friends by sharing things and being ourselves.  If you are honest in showing who you are then someone will appreciate that, even if you aren't the hero of your tale.  And if they don't appreciate that, then move on: they don't get you and are not worth your time.  

Sometimes it's hormonal... 🙄

[ImplicitDemands]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

I’m not aware of “fairness” being an element of evolutionary theory, or even that this is an issue of fairness. 
 

It's an element of synchronicity for humans working together to compete on the food-chain against more lethal predators. That's the appropriate context for my use of the word. 

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

Nurture a sense of humor

That's becoming more difficult, I used to be great at this. Because I am not at ease, I struggled for 4 years, my brow is stuck clinching. 

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

And if they don't appreciate that, then move on: they don't get you and are not worth your time.  

More time would be nice, you'd think if you had many options why get stuck? Because for me opportunity strikes once, if that. Opportunities are increasingly scarce in places they shouldn't be. I go around the local area and the "my type" dynamic goes to shit. You know what's worse is that there's almost a radar, so that if she is my type she is extremely stingy every-time not statistics like an AI behavioral trait to adjust for the features, then if she's not my type, exceedingly common especially when I'm doing anything obligatory, she's all over me. The former is a frustrating pattern, the latter is an almost infuriating autonomic reflex. An older drunk lady hitting on me or someone else my age bothered me more than than someone being verbally abusive. Because for my first time I was bottlenecked into lowering my standards and now I'm stuck with even more bottlenecking but I won't do it again. The sobriety (9 months) makes it worse in the sense that I can't laugh and I don't find amusement like I could before I started using, unless I use. It makes it better in the sense that my inhibitions are closed and I don't act on my thoughts and desires. 

Basically all of your advice comes from the right place, but it is easier said than done. And "approach them as people", which I think has been said twice now, "people" is a question mark until you've spent time with an individual and in most cases they're to shielded to ever become familiar. I guess you could say I'm in an environment that nurtures sociopathy. Once you've become an incel, it's extremely difficult to escape the state you're in. I've less oxytocin. Affection is pretty alien to me, everything is tactical, of course it wasn't always that way but when it is like that I find relationships more difficult to achieve. I don't feel anything from long hugs anymore, maybe I'm shielded. You can't really make me feel much without giving me more than the usual amount. 

These are pretty much things I've told various social channels, a therapist, an AA member. They were all seemingly on one page. It felt like there was a community, but as far as the effect, the results, of my cries for help they didn't change the stressors, they tried things (such as medication and structure) that led to this poor situation. Ticks, leeches, mosquitos and bed bugs.  I'm more likely to encounter an enemy than a friend in this, I feel as though a dementor or a tormentor is the type of folk available to me to work with in this state I've been in. To me it's one daymare after another. Maybe that's why I stopped having nightmares. Unreal. 

On 6/14/2024 at 2:10 AM, exchemist said:

This is self-pitying nonsense

It's actually more like resentment in reality. However, sociopathy is a side-effect. You can't take the fish out of the tank and expect it to do what it was made to do well. You can't make an effective change without changing my environment is basically what I'm saying. Growing more emotionally distant by being starved of a need isn't as bad as the resentment. The difference between resentment and self-pity is the difference between anger and sorrow. I don't feel sad at all, make no mistake. It (being an incel) is a constant trigger because I don't blame myself, I feel there's nothing more I can be doing, I do not feel that it is something I'm doing wrong so I don't blame myself. 

On 6/13/2024 at 9:47 PM, iNow said:

Nobody you vote for will change that, nor can they nor should they. Find a hobby or a sport and socialize. 

Yeah, "not my problem". Basically, free for all. Everyone for themselves. Again you expect me to share a patent in a free for all? That's not what the term means. 

On 6/14/2024 at 2:54 PM, MSC said:

You're not off base but there is more to it. Subjective beauty standards plays a role in the minds of these men wherein because they are plastered with highly edited images and videos of models, actresses etc they believe this is the ONLY kind of desirable woman. Which they call a Stacey (I know, they can't even escape objectifying women and other men when explaining their ideology.) And in their mind any guy a Stacey is interested in, must be an asshole (Which they call a Chad). Why? The entirety of the incel ideology is based on the false premise that nice guys finish last and that women are turned on by asshole behaviour. So what do incels do? Double down on their asshole behaviour because they think it will "woo" women. Then what happens? They strike out again and again and again and although it's the asshole behaviour that is the contributing factor, they still see themselves as "nice guys" when in reality sincere kindness and care for someone is not something they are capable of showing to a potential love interest because they only see them as a means to an end. They were never "nice guys" only they and the mothers they still live with, think that. 

 

13 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

Actually not anymore. That was in my younger years, and it's not going to be broken. Now look at the current Iris West (DC comics) in film compared to the one in the comics. Look at the lady in the new Roadhouse versus the old one. You see what Hollywood is doing to reverse the female roles? The male roles, what is considered attractive as man, they don't change. Almost like they're testing to see at what age is it too late, when do we get set in our desires/preferences? 

 

Edited June 20 by ImplicitDemands

[ImplicitDemands]

13 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

Actually not anymore. That was in my younger years, and it's not going to be broken. Now look at the current Iris West (DC comics) in film compared to the one in the comics. Look at the lady in the new Roadhouse versus the old one. You see what Hollywood is doing to reverse the female roles? The male roles, what is considered attractive as man, they don't change. Almost like they're testing to see at what age is it too late, when do we get set in our desires/preferences? 

Better examples of challenging what is already set in my eyes, if you have Prime Video, is The Boys. There's a gay couple, and then there's Sage and the Deep in episode 3. But stuff like, odd pairings, that is becoming or trying to become what you called "subjective beauty standards" but that's not practical. Even in my own desires I remain practical in moderate, the previous too examples are the other extreme, at the other end of the spectrum. It's actually extremely simple to know exactly how to help me here. 

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

stop theorizing

This is a science forum though. Although this post prompted me to complain more than theorize in the previous comment. I'm waiting for the neg reps. To me this is important though, for you what I actually did get negged for the computer science for was more important technical info. 

On 6/13/2024 at 9:47 PM, iNow said:

Nobody you vote for will change that, nor can they nor should they. Find a hobby or a sport and socialize. 

Furthermore, as if it's not enough to charge for everything under the sun, far exceeding limits that should be placed on the capacities of capitalism to push unreasonable charges like this. Accidents that aren't my fault, scheming in quarterly percentage on the crazy high cost of knowledge to remain competitive and almost elitist. You also have to give me the short end of the dating stick. And seems to not just be a lack of aid in that department, to me it is an active effort to limit my chances. As far as the "nor should they part", idk - I've shown a lot of proficiency, I deciphered the Algebraic origins of calculus on here after nearly a perfect score academically on my first try. And that was during a legal battle, involving hours and hours of community serve that took over a year and a fulltime course. When I was 24 I could compete on the national circuit in chess, most of those skills have gone to other things in the past 9 months but we'll see how quickly I can get them back before I start school again in July. 

Edited June 20 by ImplicitDemands

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

if she's not my type, exceedingly common especially when I'm doing anything obligatory, she's all over me.

So explain how you think you are involuntarily celibate. Sounds more like a very conscious decision on your part.

[ImplicitDemands]

22 minutes ago, zapatos said:

So explain how you think you are involuntarily celibate. Sounds more like a very conscious decision on your part.

Well because the decision is a result of oppressive factors, scarcity, limited audience, outside of my control. I covered this in the first post, and I think it is considered involuntary if your options and therefore your ability to chose is limited beyond a certain extreme. 

Anyway not to complain or anything, I'd prefer to just state the factors along with a little scientific theory being applied. Which I feel I've done for the most part but in a topic about involuntary celibacy it's easy to slip into whining. 

Edited June 20 by ImplicitDemands

[zapatos]

13 minutes ago, ImplicitDemands said:

Well because the decision is a result of oppressive factors, scarcity, limited audience, outside of my control. I covered this in the first post, and I think it is considered involuntary if your options and therefore your ability to chose is limited beyond a certain extreme. 

Anyway not to complain or anything, I'd prefer to just state the factors along with a little scientific theory being applied. Which I feel I've done for the most part but in a topic about involuntary celibacy it's easy to slip into whining. 

Is this any different than me being involuntarily poor, since I could not find a rich woman who would give me the time of day?

[ImplicitDemands]

47 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Is this any different than me being involuntarily poor, since I could not find a rich woman who would give me the time of day?

If you look having fair opportunity to attempt courtship as being rigged against you..

You see what I mean? But this goes further than that, this is not just limiting opportunity this is limiting time, you have to waste massive amounts of time to do things that don't really matter just to show you aren't a reverse gold digger (which is considered by many to be a thousand times worse than a gold digger because it's a guy) , you have to do things that don't matter in order to keep things you can't live without, and still your audience is kept limited. So yes it is extremely different. Essentially it is an extremely low quality life, and nothing I mean nothing good can come out of it, for anyone. That's not really all there is too it, we are really looking at my lack of family friends, my lack of family size or contact with OWN family, very separated extremely weak, not just lowering quality of life in general but making the ability to find the right person impossible. And then you say well if you want to reduce your quality of relationship then that's all a go, but that makes me angrier than the sheer isolation and lack of help given my past, low quality being advertised or thrown in my face, encouraged to treat me differently when I pull something like that in reverse? It's a type of involuntary celibacy, ultimately involuntary in how much control society is conformable or willing to take from me as a man. I mean these corporations or local police should feel TRUE shame making them unable to try to suck money from this family, to the point that they're petrified when protocol says to do so. They don't feel normal levels of shame. That has more to do with finances though, but the time it takes does play a contributing factor in limiting my ability to pursue a relationship to null. 

Edited June 20 by ImplicitDemands

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

Is this any different than me being involuntarily poor, since I could not find a rich woman who would give me the time of day?

It is criminal that Jane Seymour or Jenny Agutter never noticed me.  People like who they like, it should not come with an expectation of reciprocation from ones (distant) muse. I've always been myself, reasoning that if I try and fit a target audience, the friendship/relationship won't  last long because of my insincerity.

[sethoflagos]

On 6/14/2024 at 3:21 AM, ImplicitDemands said:

 The challenge of finding a significant other especially if you are as picky as me ...

... is to accept that it isn't your prerogative to do the picking.

Try relocating to somewhere where you stand out from the crowd and don't remind potential partners of an irritating sibling. 

Novelty provokes interest. After that, all you need to do is make them feel like their interest is worthwhile and reciprocated. Resist talking about yourself. It isn't rocket science.

[swansont]

24 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

... is to accept that it isn't your prerogative to do the picking.

This, and to recognize the irony of allowing yourself to be picky, but complaining that women are doing the same thing.

It’s almost like there’s an asymmetry in what agency men and women are to be permitted.

[sethoflagos]

15 minutes ago, swansont said:

It’s almost like there’s an asymmetry in what agency men and women are to be permitted.

Aka: misogyny.

[Phi for All]

17 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

This is the heart of the issue. You know the whole confidence versus arrogance. Well the hero is supposed to confident, and the primary identification for the villain is that he thinks he's the hero to fit that role. So that is the difference between confidence and arrogance. I'd prefer to be indirect, and just avoid the drama altogether. A lot of times it's more amusing, especially for women, to just villainize the crap out of you...brutally. At least in my experience. The use of jealousy for instance. I work on being cordial in the three body problem situation, I'm cool with it, especially when frustration transmutes into fury. When in fact that's exactly what led to my first windshield-cracking level bareknuckle barfight. So once you have practice keeping your cool, it still doesn't matter you've already fallen into the pattern and understanding the ways in which it manifests changes nothing. Don't be obvious or what you call aggressive, don't show desperation as it is a weakness, embrace the sexual repression, accept it. Seek reverence not validation. So avoid the drama at all costs, but try in your own way. Discretion, indirectness, these have their strengths. But when time isn't on your side, what then? 

I don't know what to say. It feels like you've used the calculative power of that wonderful human brain of yours to predetermine how the women you're attracted to should behave in any given situation. You're prejudging both you and them in terms of what should happen between you, and basing it all on your preconceptions. And the worst is that if she doesn't behave the way you think she should, she's a villain. You've etched a path to joy in your mind so narrow that you tread it alone. You deserve better than this, but it's you who are your own villain.

You think you're avoiding drama and that she should be grateful for that, but people who view women this way, talk this way about them, you're a complete Greek tragedy mask. I've done some acting, and believe me, you're foreshadowing bad times ahead when you talk to anyone as if you already know the outcome of things. Life is supposed to be lived moment to moment, not by a script you've written but haven't shared. 

OTOH, and this is important, part of your script paints you as an underdog. You've been beaten  down, oppressed, yet you remain a good person at heart who truly wants things to be better. The rest of it is super creepy, truly dude, and I don't know how you're going to divest yourself of your super harsh prejudgements, but I think you need to spend a whole lot less time guessing what others think of you. If you can, underdogs who persevere are extremely loveable. And the key component to being a great underdog is humility. You're so much more than these scripted definitions you have of confidence and arrogance.

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

I mean these corporations or local police should feel TRUE shame making them unable to try to suck money from this family, to the point that they're petrified when protocol says to do so.

I am having so much trouble trying to follow what you are saying. I guess it is clear to you but things just seem to randomly pop up in your posts that I can't make heads or tails of.

[swansont]

3 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

And then you say well if you want to reduce your quality of relationship then that's all a go

Reduce your quality of relationship? The only aspect of “relationship” you’ve brought up is sex. When that’s the extent of things, you’ve automatically narrowed the field of women who might be interested in you.

[toucana]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

This, and to recognize the irony of allowing yourself to be picky, but complaining that women are doing the same thing.

It’s almost like there’s an asymmetry in what agency men and women are to be permitted.

There is an old piece of sage advice for guys desperate to find a partner:- "You just need to keep on chasing girls until one of them catches you" 😉

[iNow]

Based solely on what’s been posted in this thread, it’s hardly surprising you can’t find a mate nor get laid. It’s been an uninteresting mixture of crybaby and caricaturing and cartoonish dehumanizing throughout. 

[MSC]

I'd be very curious to know how you come across to women in person, but my hunch is that you give off some kind of vibe that rings alarm bells in their brains and makes them question their safety around you. Do you have a tendency to stare? 

Here is my two cents; you're intellectualising right now. It's easier for you to come up with some brianbox sounding theory/word salad that places the locus of blame for your social inability to initiate a safe and comforting relationship with women and establish an emotional connection, on women themselves. When the reality leans more toward the common denominator being how you interact with people in combination with your self image, the image of expectations for men and women and your narrow focus on the physical attributes of attractiveness as opposed to security, the latter of which will always be weighed as more important than the former. 

Now where women are concerned you're claiming they are being cruel and mean to you, are they really though or are they just not reacting the way you would expect them to react to "A macho muscled alpha male"?

Earlier you dismissed the idea of clubs and group's as a means to meet likeminded women as ineffectual when what you really mean is you have some level of awareness that you can't initiate anything romantic or sexual in a group setting but you're not confident in your ability to get women to the point where they feel safe enough to leave a group and it doesn't seem like you'd be patient enough to do what it takes. 

Honestly, you really need to spend a bit of time in introspection and ask yourself what is it about you that turns women off? 

Back to what I said about the narrow focus; this comes across in the hyperbolic fashion with which you believe all women have put you in the "involuntarily celibate cell". My bet is that you've actually missed signs of interest from some women too, one's who probably have some faulty safety wiring in their brains that makes them swoon over Dahmer and the like but I guess if they aren't a "Stacey" whatever that is in your head, you won't notice. 

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

Based solely on what’s been posted in this thread, it’s hardly surprising you can’t find a mate nor get laid. It’s been an uninteresting mixture of crybaby and caricaturing and cartoonish dehumanizing throughout. 

Meh, he's more articulate and forthcoming about his mind than some of these incels, which makes him interesting for dialogical psychoanalysis. That said he definitely shouldn't put "I'm the Ed Kemper of Incels" on a CV. 

Really though he just needs to take a look in the mirror, accept that he must be the problem and get his sh*t together before he loses control and ends up on the news. There are a lot of social skill issues at play here mixed with rage. A bad combination. 

[swansont]

51 minutes ago, MSC said:

I'd be very curious to know how you come across to women in person, but my hunch is that you give off some kind of vibe that rings alarm bells in their brains and makes them question their safety around you.

Ref. my Atwood quote.

Women run the risk of being hurt or killed when she’s with a man, even more so when he’s a stranger. Survival is enhanced by listening to any mental warning bells, and erring on the side of caution. So, as MSC notes, if you give off a bad vibe, her safe option is to run away. Same if you remind her of anyone with whom she had a bad experience.

[ImplicitDemands]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Reduce your quality of relationship? The only aspect of “relationship” you’ve brought up is sex. When that’s the extent of things, you’ve automatically narrowed the field of women who might be interested in you.

I don't know how you got that impression. I have said that I lost any affection, I'm just trying to get that feeling again, so if anything it's about it not being about just sex. For anyone it is about sexuality, not sex but the fact the some of us who are stuck in the old ways feel it is how it is supposed to be. Missing the female role for longer than seven years you begin to wonder why there are two genders in the first place. It's perplexing to me. 

33 minutes ago, swansont said:

Ref. my Atwood quote.

Women run the risk of being hurt or killed when she’s with a man, even more so when he’s a stranger. Survival is enhanced by listening to any mental warning bells, and erring on the side of caution. So, as MSC notes, if you give off a bad vibe, her safe option is to run away. Same if you remind her of anyone with whom she had a bad experience.

Last I couple times I got three body problemed the dudes they picked either played around pretending to have her in a headlock and the other guy was fat and burly compared to me so. 

1 hour ago, MSC said:

I'd be very curious to know how you come across to women in person, but my hunch is that you give off some kind of vibe that rings alarm bells in their brains and makes them question their safety around you. Do you have a tendency to stare? 

When I'm sober take everyone of those assumptions and reverse them, it's the exact opposite. I don't try very hard lately if at all. I just work on how I look lately. 

1 hour ago, MSC said:

"I'm the Ed Kemper of Incels"

That fight was seven or eight years ago. I'm really not like that, about two years ago I was wasted and usually it's just me being drunk and stupid. I mean anyone in my situation would be extremely jealous but I don't act like it. I haven't stared at a female since middle school. 

1 hour ago, MSC said:

your narrow focus on the physical attributes of attractiveness as opposed to security

Again I wouldn't want to be in a relationship where she didn't find my looks particularly impressive. Here's tidbit, the fact that the universe goes against me when I do go off looks makes me go off looks even more.

Plus I work hard to look the way I look, you don't think I'd make looks a prerequisite given the opposition to what I find attractive to me kind of does the opposite of making me change my views on that? But looks alone are absolutely nothing and the fact is, in my situation, there couldn't be a great fulfilling relationship anyway. I want someone to collaborate with but mainly I just want to feel a spark with someone, I haven't been able to it's not that I feel especially lonely it's just that I don't feel certain things. I think it's important to have intimacy. But the bottom doesn't find that whatever a factor in my performance.  

1 hour ago, MSC said:

Now where women are concerned you're claiming they are being cruel and mean to you, are they really though or are they just not reacting the way you would expect them to react to "A macho muscled alpha male"?

No I just need a greenlight because it's dangerous for me to get judged the way you and a few others just did in by jumping to conclusions too soon. Again I am very indirect in my approach I need confirmation though. Beyond the obvious, I didn't say I wanted someone to just admire me. Just an explicit request, not implicit. Like to be able to verbally say we are in a monogamous relationship. It's treading carefully. As far as the Ted Bundy thing, that's not my version of villain here I brought in that mildly bad-guy from Matrix to make a comedy out of how always being the guy that's not dating the woman kind of would be the envious villain trying to steal his girl. It's a joke. 

Edited June 21 by ImplicitDemands

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MSC said:

he's more articulate and forthcoming about his mind than some of these incels, which makes him interesting for dialogical psychoanalysis.

I really don’t care. He’s here whining and blaming others for his problems. I have no patience for that. Many folks have trouble socially. Most recognize the common factor in those interactions is self and work to improve it. 

Instead of seeking out incels and spreading their messages online, the OP should pull his head out of his ass and get some therapy… and join a club or sport like I said the first time. 

[ImplicitDemands]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

cartoonish dehumanizing throughout. 

Cypher only sold Morpheus out because he couldn't get in Trinity's pants. 

[iNow]

1 minute ago, ImplicitDemands said:

Cypher only sold Morpheus out because he couldn't get in Trinity's pants. 

Oh good.  Now you’re referencing Matrix movies and spreading myths about those. What an awesome thread /sarcasm 

[ImplicitDemands]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

I really don’t care. He’s here whining and blaming others for his problems. I have no patience for that. Many folks have trouble socially. Most recognize the common factor in those interactions is self and work to improve it. 

Instead of seeking out incels and spreading their messages online, the OP should pull his head out of his ass and get some therapy… and join a club or sport like I said the first time. 

It's not as simple as join a club. I think I had this conversation on the second page. I'm doing these things but the lack of stability, the constant transitioning from place to place, to make ends meet. A lot it actually is not my fault and I do have some resentment for having to live this way.

But I have been open with therapists in the past. More than just what I've said here I've compared people in situations like this to being "potential Ted Bundy"s and I check that in myself. Obviously I go into more detail with a therapist but then they betray my trust and try and hypocritically medicate me when my solution is abstinence, and as I've explained that has been effective and has kept me out of jail. In fact the only time I'm dangerous is when you add mind altering substances to the mix and that includes when I was once willing to try meds. I actually did get armed so they do not help either. 

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

Oh good.  Now you’re referencing Matrix movies and spreading myths about those. What an awesome thread /sarcasm 

Actually the character was clearly jealous of Neo. 

I guess the moral of the story is "don't be that guy" Cypher/Bundy. 

Thanks a lot this has been really helpful /sarcasm

[iNow]

19 minutes ago, ImplicitDemands said:

It's not as simple as join a club

Only bc you have this as your preconception.

The human mind has this amazing ability to find what it’s looking for. 

Best of luck. I’m already far more involved in your silliness than I ever intended to be and plan to correct that now.