swansont Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 minute ago, orgotude said: I have a question for you, do you think incel means involuntary celibacy, or the subculture of a particular forum lineage, used in gender studies articles. I am not going to assume things before you change your mind. It means involuntary celibacy. I’m not aware of this forum lineage you mention, so it can’t be that, but there is a subculture associated with the name, not unlike the religious extremists that are a subculture religion. (IOW, I’m certain that men are around who are not having sex but do not misplace the blame for it, or even place any blame) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 10 minutes ago, swansont said: It means involuntary celibacy. I’m not aware of this forum lineage you mention, so it can’t be that, but there is a subculture associated with the name, not unlike the religious extremists that are a subculture religion. (IOW, I’m certain that men are around who are not having sex but do not misplace the blame for it, or even place any blame) The subculture is that of the forum lineage, first with the PSL forums. PSL forums -> r/truecels -> r/incels -> [redacted] -> [redacted] is where the subculture came from and how researchers determine how it is evolving, by looking at a specific forum lineage For the purposes of clarity, I call this "PSL subculture" or "r/incels subculture", to distinguish it in discussions from the situation of involuntary celibacy You've acknowledged that some people attach a subculture to these two common English words used in succession: involuntary celibacy, shortened to incel. For the purposes of this discussion I need people, INCLUDING YOURSELF, to settle on either the literal meaning of the term or the subculture. Because it if it both then the latter is always opportunistically used to shut down arguments about the former. Edited June 24 by orgotude -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 41 minutes ago, orgotude said: I need people, INCLUDING YOURSELF, to settle on either the literal meaning of the term or the subculture. Given that it’s not your thread nor are you the OP, what you need is little more than an irrelevant distraction and serves as further evidence of the toxic sense of delusional entitlement so rampant among those identifying as and associating with incel culture. I shall continue using words in whatever manner I please, and encourage others to do the same. It’s really no surprise women don’t want folks like you in their lives nor in their beds. It’s bad enough having your repugnant attitudes and myopic toxicity in these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 10 minutes ago, iNow said: I shall continue using words in whatever manner I please, and encourage others to do the same. If it's done such a way to irrationally stigmatize a large demographic of people, on the order of millions, who do not have any public defenders, I will continue to try to make that behavior stop, if it's not possible here, than other forums. I don't care if that makes me entitled or whatever. Seeming entitled is not a subculture, and is often necessary to argue for entitlements. The irrational thing people do is lazily reading a Wikipedia definition, and then broadbrushing every involuntary celibate with a Reddit subculture characterized by a very large amount of horrible things that not every involuntarily sexless person subscribes to. I will be very forceful in discussion, as much as I am legally able to, to make anyone who implies that everyone who cannot have sex are part of a Reddit subculture, to stop. Edited June 24 by orgotude -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 That’s a nice strawman you’ve got there. It’d be a real shame if you tried engaging in good faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 2 minutes ago, iNow said: That’s a nice strawman you’ve got there. It’d be a real shame if you tried engaging in good faith So I'll ask you, what is your definition of incel. You've posted quite a bit in this thread. And if you want to "be heard" you should define your terms first because "words mean whatever I want" is not a starting point for any serious discussion, more or less the 8th page. They can mean whatever you want, but they need an anchor for any serious discussion. Edited June 24 by orgotude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Duly noted. Glad you’re here to dumb things down and explain to me what’s expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) The most Google-indexed definitions are not even intelligible. For example, the WIkipedia definition "incel is defined by being associated with a subculture" literally does not mean anything. It doesn't say *what* it is. It's really just an attempt to malign involuntary celibates, as the people who wrote that article *first* wanted to do so at the page name of "involuntary celibacy". Myself and a few others successfully stopped them from doing that on Wikipedia years ago, because two common English words in succession that encompasses millions who don't self-identify, engage in activism, participate in forums, use PSL lingo, argue for incels etc is not a subculture. That was obvious to even the most critical people on Wikipedia thankfully. They had some mature and attentive people there who saw that disguised ableism tactic and stopped it. Regardless, the people who wanted to define the r/incels subculture at the Wikipedia page name "involuntary celibacy" were furious, they spent days complaining that they could not define involuntary celibacy as a subculture on Wikipedia under the page name involuntary celibacy. Now the WIkipedia article looks like what it is now, a mess of unintelligibility at the page name "incel", echoed into quite a few digital journalism outlets. If they simply defined it at the page name of "r/incels culture" or something, their article would make more sense. Edited June 24 by orgotude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 6 minutes ago, orgotude said: The most Google-indexed definitions are not even intelligible. For example, the WIkipedia definition "incel is defined by being associated with a subculture" literally does not mean anything. It doesn't say *what* it is. It's really just an attempt to malign involuntary celibates, as the people who wrote that article *first* wanted to do so at the page name of "involuntary celibay". Myself and a few other stopped them from doing that on Wikipedia years ago. They were furious, they spent days complaining that they could not define involuntary celibacy as a subculture on Wikipedia under the page name involuntary celibacy. If you call yourself an 'incel' you are proactively identifying with a subculture, this is distinguished from those who are involuntarily celibate via physical trauma, genetics etc. I don't think the latter would call themselves 'incels'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 56 minutes ago, StringJunky said: If you call yourself an 'incel' you are proactively identifying with a subculture, this is distinguished from those who are involuntarily celibate via physical trauma, genetics etc. I don't think the latter would call themselves 'incels'. Ok, let me assume your decree is correct despite the existence of people who disprove that. That everyone who calls themself incel aligns with Lamarcus Sm*lls and/or Diego Galant*s and/or Marjan Sickl*c's and/or PSL subculture. Let's also assume you are correct forever. What term would you use for people who cannot have sex. If it is "involuntarily celibate", the moderator here acknowledges that is used to attach the term to a subculture. I am arguing that stop, the attachment. If it cannot stop worldwide, what word should be used? Edited June 24 by orgotude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Potato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 6 minutes ago, orgotude said: Ok, let me assume you are correct. Let's also assume you are correct forever. What term would you use for people who cannot have sex. Involuntarily celibate, but they are not incels, which is a movement of emotionally disturbed men projecting their issues onto women as the cause of their problems. They aren't actually involuntarily celibate, their state is self induced. Edited June 24 by StringJunky Added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 3 minutes ago, StringJunky said: Involuntarily celibate, but they are not incels, which is a movement of emotionally disturbed men projecting their issues onto women. They aren't actually involuntarily celibate, their state is self induced. The admin here already stated that incel means involuntary celibacy. So that is not going to work here extremely well. Of course you can differ from the admin, or he can change his mind. But it's just a pointless exercise in the long run considering how much of a little fiefdom these forums end up being in the long run. Anyway without a clear consensus on definitions from the few participating, this discussion cannot go anywhere in a rational direction. Edited June 24 by orgotude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 minute ago, orgotude said: The admin here already stated that incel means involuntary celibacy. So that is not going to work here. Incel is a movement that has misapplied the term 'involuntary celibacy' to suit their agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 9 minutes ago, StringJunky said: Incel is a movement that has misapplied the term 'involuntary celibacy' to suit their agenda. ok great, I understand your position. It is not the position of the moderator considering I made it a point to ask him if he thought incel meant involuntary celibacy and he said yes. He can change his mind or hedge to muddy the waters, but that would be proof he does not want a serious discussion. Again without a clear consensus on definitions from the few participating, this discussion cannot go anywhere in a rational direction. Edited June 24 by orgotude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 No admins have posted here. It’s really a wonder you guys have trouble with mating. Mind boggling really given your mellow way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 9 minutes ago, iNow said: weak ad hominems you probably think you are funny, but you aren't unfortunately. If the moderators are not in agreeement on the definition and neither are the pariticipants, this discussion cannot go in a serious direction. I urge the OP @ImplicitDemands, as this is sort of his thread, if he wants to continue, to nail the few participating to a single cohesive and intelligible definition or set of definitions. It doesn't even have to be a favored set, just any consistent and intelligible set, as they do not currently exist. Otherwise the thread will go nowhere in a rational or mature direction. Edited June 24 by orgotude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 I'm probably one of the people on your ignore list, Orgo-dude, but the definition of 'incel' is a specific state of mind of the person who identifies as such. It has nothing to do with the rest of society, or with me, but is a self-inflicted delusion that tends to harm those surrounding him ( or her ). And all your buzz-words, like 'anglosphere gender whatchyoumaycallits' may make me pity the sap, but I will not feel guilty about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 8 minutes ago, orgotude said: weak ad hominems … were also not posted here, but thanks for the intentional misquote As you’re so hung up on definitions, one would think you’d use words like ad him correctly, but alas… no such luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 4 minutes ago, iNow said: … were also not posted here, but thanks for the intentional misquote As you’re so hung up on definitions, one would think you’d use words like ad him correctly, but alas… no such luck When was the last time you actually said anything in this thread? The image of you in my head is just a little 4chan troll running around. Edited June 24 by orgotude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Anything? It was right before your post. You even quoted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 It feels like we need a muzzle on the little yappy dog that made its way into this discussion and is barking at everyone to DO THINGS MY WAY RIGHT NOW I INSIST I WANT A SERIOUS DISCUSSION FOLLOWING MY RULES ACCORDING TO ALL MY OFF TOPIC CRAP ABOUT CHANGING WIKIPEDIA AND STUFF ON REDDIT AND LEGALLY ABLE AND RATIONAL DIRECTION AND WHY AREN'T YOU DOING WHAT I SAY?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 34 minutes ago, zapatos said: It feels like we need a muzzle on the little yappy dog that made its way into this discussion and is barking at everyone to DO THINGS MY WAY RIGHT NOW I INSIST I WANT A SERIOUS DISCUSSION FOLLOWING MY RULES ACCORDING TO ALL MY OFF TOPIC CRAP ABOUT CHANGING WIKIPEDIA AND STUFF ON REDDIT AND LEGALLY ABLE AND RATIONAL DIRECTION AND WHY AREN'T YOU DOING WHAT I SAY?!?! Having an agreement upon the definitions of the main topic are not my own rules, but generally accepted rules anywhere anyone wants to have a serious discussion. The participants here are incapable of having a consistent, intelligible, and mututally accepted definition for the basic subjects of the thread. Despite the fact that it was made clear by the OP and those who self-identify elsewhere on the internet: involuntary celibacy, not a Reddit subculture. The posts are malicious and to an irrational degree despite the OPs issues. Those who abide by PSL or r/incels culture can be demarcated verbally by saying "r/incels culture" or "PSL culture" culture or similar terms. And those tiny online subcultures do not speak for everyone who is unable to have sex. And again to imply otherwise is bigoted and ableist. Edited June 24 by orgotude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 3 minutes ago, orgotude said: Despite the fact that it was made clear what that definition was by the OP and those who self-identify: involuntary celibacy No, that was not his definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgotude Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Just now, zapatos said: No, that was not his definition. At this point you are just saying words without attempting to convince anyone. His posts are partially about his perception that he cannot have sex by choice and/or will. Whether or not that is true, that is why he calls himself incel, that perception of himself. Muddying the waters of the definition might be amusing to people here to discourage discussion but it's kind of gross to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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