Who do I vote for to aid singles suffering involuntary celibacy

[zapatos]

I have never met a person, no matter how unlikely it seems they'll ever find a mate, who couldn't find someone to be with. Plus, alternatives involving an exchange of money for services also exist for anyone willing to make an effort.

While I accept there is a group of celibates who are unhappy with their lives, I don't for a second believe it is strictly involuntary. Maybe no longer being celibate would be difficult or less than ideal, but not involuntary.

[orgotude]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Absolutely.
We've had discussion of educational solutions and political solutions ( even linking to the housing shortage ) when the problem is actually 'incel mentality', or ideology.
When someone says "I can't get laid, and its everyone else's fault", that is a mental problem.

Maybe that's part of the problem with the evolution of Western society.
When you are encouraged to believe you're not responsible for your own life situation, it is only a small step to believing that all bad situations are someone else's fault.

I'd recommend looking outside neoliberal, gender focused, or sensationalist journals and magazines

This is a good one, "Men's fear of sex with women: A cross-cultural study"

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00287331
 

Nowhere does this mention some ambiguous mass moral failing or lack of will as the cause of gynophobia and genophobia.

Extreme examples of universal, cultural gypnohobia have been found in the highlands of New Guinea for example, where widespread anti-masturbation propaganda coincides with notions of, "perilous female sexuality". The anthropologist Carol Ember argues that such fears were likely caused by limited availability of basic resources that would be required to increase the population.

In other words, the material conditions mostly begets a mental cause of incel, not so much the other way around.  Easiest to see in places where this manifests most extreme and therefore is easier to measure.

1 hour ago, zapatos said:

While I accept there is a group of celibates who are unhappy with their lives, I don't for a second believe it is strictly involuntary. Maybe no longer being celibate would be difficult or less than ideal, but not involuntary.

Apparently prisons, mental wards, and nursing homes don't exist.

 

 

Edited June 17 by orgotude

[zapatos]

57 minutes ago, orgotude said:

Apparently prisons, mental wards, and nursing homes don't exist.

 

My grandpa was getting it regularly when he was in a nursing home. They don't remove your twigs and berries when you move in. Apparently they monitor that sort of thing where you come from.

[orgotude]

44 minutes ago, zapatos said:

My grandpa was getting it regularly when he was in a nursing home. They don't remove your twigs and berries when you move in. Apparently they monitor that sort of thing where you come from.

In the USA, sexual intercourse and even masturbation is banned in mental wards.  In other words, involuntary celibacy.  To deny that would just to be a bigot.
Same as in prisons in the USA, given only a few states nowadays allow conjugal visits, and most particularly in solitary confinement.

As far as nursing homes, involuntary celibacy within them is documented and well researched, and not limited to the USA

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3813706

 

Quote

When focused specifically involuntary celibacy, [academic journal] samples have been restricted to a few small groups such as the instituationalized elderly

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19419899.2012.713869

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00926239608404402

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jan.12398

 

Quote

Most staff members
have no training on issues related to sexuality and they feel
uncomfortable dealing with sexual issues with older people. Research suggests that
most healthcare professionals working in RACFs do not see
sexuality as something to be promoted or proactively
addressed with residents. In fact, some staff members view
sexuality as irrelevant or even as potentially disruptive for the
organization and their
reactions towards residents’ sexual expression mostly range
from paternalism to discouragement and rejec-
tion.

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-3743.2007.00051.x

 

Quote

It has been observed that freedom of sexual expression
is denied in both the rehabilitation and residential
care home setting of nursing homes

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15500531/

 

Quote

Participant: In the end they did put the two of them together, because
well, husband and wife, they weren’t doing anything wrong. Um, and
they were quite an elderly couple.
Researcher: When you say, ‘Weren’t doing anything wrong’, what do
you mean?
Participant: Well, they weren’t making sexual advances to one
another or anything like that. It was just a normal relationship. You
know, nothing was sort of brought out in the open that was
appalling, or anything like that.
In this instance, a married couple were ‘allowed’ to share a
room because their relationship was deemed to be ‘normal’
and therefore asexual.
A facility that has a restrictive ethos with regard to
residents’ affectionate and sexual needs has an impact on the
staff, in that education and support in sexuality issues may
not be provided. Work practices may be permitted to be
restrictive and controlling. As managers do not want to face
sexuality issues – or else disregard them – they see these work
practices not as negative, but as usual.
There were a number of other practices used in the
standing guard context. One of these was the erection of
barriers. This was a management task and existed to guard
against expressions of sexuality and to deal with overt
expressions of sexuality. The barriers might be physical – for
example, moving a person to another room or another
home – or they might be psychological and involve such
things as threats and punishment:
…‘we will have to contact your family’, and most people don’t like
that – they don’t want their families involved. ‘If you continue with
that sort of behaviour…’
The outcomes of standing guard are ultimately avoidance of
sexuality issues, and this results in lack of fulfilment in residents’
lives and subsequently a decline in health status

 

it doesn't not exist because one, or one hundred, or one million people had sex in them.  It depends on the institution, as you said some do actively monitor it in nursing and attempt to stop it.   Regardless of whether it is right or wrong, it is involuntary celibacy.  These are among the most extreme cases, but historian Elizabeth Abbot for example identified many more less extreme should you want to talk about them.  It's in her book "A History of Celibacy", in her chapter on involuntary celibacy.

Edited June 17 by orgotude

[MigL]

1 hour ago, orgotude said:

The anthropologist Carol Ember argues that such fears were likely caused by limited availability of basic resources

And you think that explains why 'incel culture' is taking off in the Developed countries, as a result of the internet ?
Maybe if they didn't spend so much time online, but actually got out to meet people, they'd get laid !
Are you really going to argue that we, in the developed countries, are lacking in resources ?

 

35 minutes ago, orgotude said:

Same as in prisons in the USA, given only a few states nowadays allow conjugal visits, and most particularly in solitary confinement.

Everyone is aware that sex ( with the opposite gender ) is not available in prison.
Yet people voluntarily go to jail because they voluntarily do the crime.
Seems to be the result of voluntary bad choices, and as I previously pointed out, lack of responsibility.
( if you want to argue that some 'crimes' should not result in jail time, that is a different story )

This is not the movie Good Will Hunting; sometimes it is their fault.

[orgotude]

9 minutes ago, MigL said:

And you think that explains why 'incel culture' is taking off in the Developed countries, as a result of the internet ?
Maybe if they didn't spend so much time online, but actually got out to meet people, they'd get laid !
Are you really going to argue that we, in the developed countries, are lacking in resources ?

 

Everyone is aware that sex ( with the opposite gender ) is not available in prison.
Yet people voluntarily go to jail because they voluntarily do the crime.
Seems to be the result of voluntary bad choices, and as I previously pointed out, lack of responsibility.
( if you want to argue that some 'crimes' should not result in jail time, that is a different story )

This is not the movie Good Will Hunting; sometimes it is their fault.

You can haphazardly label every typical involuntary situation in life as fully voluntary and this conversation will go nowhere.  The existence of involuntary celibacy is well documented in academic literature.  Your responses and the responses of most people here are ignoring the relevant academia as well as the OPs main question.  As far as the OP, if you want to come back please do, otherwise this has devolved into people being bigoted and ableist against those with the least power in society, particularly those institutionalized.

Edited June 17 by orgotude

[zapatos]

49 minutes ago, orgotude said:

To deny that would just to be a bigot.

I must have missed something. Some reason you are picking a fight with me?

[MigL]

Who should you be bigoted against, if not criminals who are in jai l???

I can see the lawsuits now; Pedophiles released from prison who apply for jobs at day-care centers are discriminated against.
Get real.

[orgotude]

8 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I must have missed something. Some reason you are picking a fight with me?

I listed a few instances of no-brainer examples of involuntary celibacy.  Your response to that was "my grandpa had sex in a nursing home".  This is not a discussion people are taking seriously, when mature academics have.

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

Who should you be bigoted against, if not criminals who are in jai l???

I'm sorry you feel this way but you are not engaging in a serious discussion.  I brought up institutions.  This includes mental wards, jails/prisons, and nursing homes, among other places.  These are no-brainer examples of involuntary celibacy with plenty of academic literature to back it up.  Your response is to shift the discussion to the moral value of the most abhorrent people in the least sympathetic among those three.  This is not a serious discussion.

Edited June 17 by orgotude

[zapatos]

1 minute ago, orgotude said:

I listed a few instances of no-brainer examples of involuntary celibacy.  Your response to that was "my grandpa had sex in a nursing home".  This is not a discussion people are taking seriously, when mature academics have.

Lighten up Francis. This thread is about singles who can't find a significant other. Don't get pissed at me because I didn't expand my response to cover prisons, nursing homes, mental institutions, and people who are castrated in war. Find some other thread where you can grind your axe. I'm not interested.

[MigL]

I profusely apologize for not living up to your standards of seriousness 😄 .

 

[orgotude]

12 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Lighten up Francis. This thread is about singles who can't find a significant other. Don't get pissed at me because I didn't expand my response to cover prisons, nursing homes, mental institutions, and people who are castrated in war. Find some other thread where you can grind your axe. I'm not interested.

The question after you all ignored the OPs question was if involuntary celibacy exists, not involuntary singlehood alone.  (which by the way, also has its own set of academia).   Clearly mental wards, prisons, and nursing homes are examples that show involuntary celibacy exists.  After it is established that it exists, then we can move onto less obvious cases.  But I have to address the nonsensical and non-empiric denialism before more day-to-day examples can be discussed.

Edited June 17 by orgotude

[swansont]

3 minutes ago, orgotude said:

The question after you all ignored the OPs question was if involuntary celibacy exists, not involuntary singlehood alone.  (which by the way, also has its own set of academia).   Clearly mental wards, prisons, and nursing homes are examples that show involuntary celibacy exists.

The OP made no mention of being in any of these institutions, so that seems irrelevant, and I don’t see where the existence of involuntary celibacy was questioned. And the OP’s question was not ignored; there were responses pointing out that this is not an issue for legislation. We could discuss why in further detail, but nobody went in that direction.

[orgotude]

25 minutes ago, swansont said:

I don’t see where the existence of involuntary celibacy was questioned.

Well we're making progress.  I'd like to further state that it is indeed a thing. (;edit as in the circumstance of involuntary celibacy, not a Reddit subculture relabeled as all involuntary celibacy or whatever attempted redefinition of the English language)  Now all those posts about involuntary celibacy being entirely a mentality and not a real thing should probably be deleted to further your rewriting.

On 6/15/2024 at 12:05 AM, MigL said:

There is no such thing as INvoluntary celibacy; it is all voluntary.

Admin here is either a malicious asshat on this topic or blind.  This isn't counting the posts where it wasn't explicitly said word for word

Edited June 17 by orgotude

[swansont]

4 minutes ago, orgotude said:

Well we're making progress.  I'd like to further state that it is indeed a thing.  Now all those posts about involuntary celibacy being entirely a mentality and not a real thing should probably be deleted to further your rewriting.

That doesn’t deny the existence of incels; it points to a possible cause and also perhaps a solution.

4 minutes ago, orgotude said:

Admin here is either a malicious asshat or blind.

Ah, a Dale Carnegie graduate, I see.

[MigL]

Quick question, Org.
Monasteries and convents.
Both deny sexual relations, yet people are free to choose becoming members.

Do you call that voluntary or involuntary ?
( I only ask as you don't seem to know the meaning of the words )

If you get to make the choice that gets you in the predicament, it is voluntary.

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, orgotude said:

The question after you all ignored the OPs question was if involuntary celibacy exists

Did you read the title of the OP?

Quote

Who do I vote for to aid singles suffering involuntary celibacy

 

[iNow]

5 hours ago, zapatos said:

I must have missed something. Some reason you are picking a fight with me?

Picking fights is obviously their entire reason for posting 

[zapatos]

6 hours ago, orgotude said:

I listed a few instances of no-brainer examples of involuntary celibacy. 

Being in prison also includes involuntary no longer walking in the park, no longer cooking, no longer riding the merry-go-round, no longer robbing banks. Pretty much the majority of what is voluntary when not in prison. So why call out prisons for involuntary celibacy? Why not say being in a coma or being dead includes involuntary celibacy? They are also "no-brainer". 

[StringJunky]

12 hours ago, zapatos said:

Being in prison also includes involuntary no longer walking in the park, no longer cooking, no longer riding the merry-go-round, no longer robbing banks. Pretty much the majority of what is voluntary when not in prison. So why call out prisons for involuntary celibacy? Why not say being in a coma or being dead includes involuntary celibacy? They are also "no-brainer". 

"OH!... you naughty boy... have some more sweets." 

[ImplicitDemands]

On 6/15/2024 at 10:58 AM, TheVat said:

The thing about social skills is that learning them seems so critically dependent on entering into real but structured social situations.  I've wondered if some of the clubs (currently in more budgetary peril) in US primary schools sort of function (with an experienced adult supervising and stepping in) in that way.  Fine arts clubs (drama, dance, choral, e.g.) seemed to work well for that.

 

Clubs and groups are no real way to bond in a monogamous fashion with what one considered the appropriate counterpart. You can guess as to why having a type just peaks that pyramid of impossibility. 

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, ImplicitDemands said:

Clubs and groups are no real way to bond in a monogamous fashion with what one considered the appropriate counterpart.

All evidence to the contrary...

[ImplicitDemands]

I really thought I'd get peppered with negs for this thread considering my more contributive topic in the field of electromechanical and computerized systems got showered with negs. I realize now that I was online at the wrong time because it seems like a lot of posters with a lot of positive reps were doing it for fun.

Anyway, I have yet to sort through these replies but it seems like only a few brought up involuntary celibacy which is what this thread is about. 

Anyway I found out that if you shave your torso and get your arms and abs pumped after weight training before a photo it makes a MASSIVE difference just to show how difficult it can be no matter how you look or how smart you are once you've actually fallen into the incel group:

https://i.ibb.co/ss9LzLg/IMG-20240619-213740.jpg

AND I'm living a college surrounded by women, they will pick literally anyone first, I had gotten over 7 phone numbers that led no where, and that was 2 years of me doing all the work. I think I actually had more effort put forth to me in the beginning than later. Looks, practice, experience does not help AT ALL once you've been placed into the involuntary celibacy cell. Patterns are hard to break out from. I've done it once before but whatever I did then IS NOT working now. I wasn't nearly as defined at the time either. But you couldn't tell the difference with a shirt on which may be a big factor. 

58 minutes ago, zapatos said:

All evidence to the contrary...

I'm not saying any online service could work. Never has in my experience in fact online dating sites are not actually real, they are catfished 100% of the time at least in 2024. In my experience though, the group prohibits dating, it hinders it. My only two dates have been achieved through sharing a class or two. Again, that isn't working anymore. Groups still aren't, never have. It's not my approach, in fact the only reason I don't pop the question at all is because I haven't been able to garner interest after exchanging contact information. Which means they were being nice, vs actual attraction or ever interest. I really am at a loss. My only go to for a group, is one that has the same members for years and years, because that's how long it would take. Yet as a 31 year old, even being generous and saying I have the same amount of time looking like I do now as very few guys, Brad Pitt or Chris Hemsworth, can pull off - I really don't want to do it that way. I'd need to instill a lot of attraction and generate a lot of interest fast.

And you know there are better things than groups for that, even covering a larger audience, that is the way college or HS sports do it, especial sports that don't have a team, like wrestling (which I have done) or now my only option is MMA (I just so happen to know boxing and jiu jitsu now) but even in a sport like that you don't also share a class or group outside. It's the duality there that can be effective. Other than that, actual celebrity-dom, like starring on popular roles especially on television, could be even more effective. But I'm good at physics, math and engineering, which is a nightmare and part of the reason I don't share things is because it's really not effective. And outside of acting schools, and colleges, there's nothing that effective to garner fast interest/attraction over a large audience. But the formulas I have listed do exist. It also helps to have different families that are close with a lot of potential prospects in them, which I do not. I literally live in an incel inducive environment far removed from those effective elements I've listed and mere groups won't help. And this situation is projected to become devastating due to my age. I don't see a way out. 

Ideally it would be a combination of being star in a popular Amazon Prime or Hulu series, as well as having a larger family than I do who are friends with a lot of families who are related to a lot of dating prospects. But in my situation the only way to mimic or synthesize that setup would be to somehow take footage of me doing cool things which I have done in the past (and I do kind of look like a film star) along with other things I've learned or done regarding what I am actually good at, and compiling them into some plot by changing the people I was around or the environment I was in to fit with the plot. As for family, they'd have to be randos because I don't have many relatives that I'm close to. 

On 6/13/2024 at 9:47 PM, iNow said:

Nobody you vote for will change that, nor can they nor should they. Find a hobby or a sport and socialize. 

Prayer doesn't seem to be any more effective than voting.

Really politics, money, and religion are just bad science. I'd rather invest in human resources, social security, personal relationships than the first three. But I think it is safe to say that I am in a crisis and I don't really have anything to reach out to without sounding like a desperate loser, selfish jerk (if I go to the CEO of a dating service, a church group, or a politician or something). 

If there were an all powerful despot I could reach out to I'm sure that person would arrange something if I know as much about physics and engineering as I think I do, but power in this country is diffused among a bureaucracy mitigated between religion, money and politics. If there is a despot it is that the police and the army, those who enforce, because you can't have any weight behind a rule or a money value without enforcement. So we're not talking diplomacy or money we're talking enforcement. But that's 3 million individuals and obviously their only form of synchronized communication is through hierarchical structure is that decentralized bureaucracy. As I've said in the past regarding what I provide, there was some U.S. jet fighter that had some stealth capabilities that was captured by Russia around the Cold War, none of those engineers could find out how to build one that worked the same. So you can have a ton of smart people, but all of them working together couldn't come up with the Special Theory of Relativity. So one individual did that, you can run something by a ton of people but they didn't have the background that Einstein did. Regarding that, I've also said that there are two ways to go about extracting info, negative reinforcement or positive encouragement. Of course science forums is all about the negs. I could add up everything bad that's ever happened to me and say positive encouragement could never be enough, or I could get into how resisting interrogation tactics is a science and the highest form of military discipline. Either way I'm taking my secrets to my grave. 

On 6/14/2024 at 5:25 PM, Ken Fabian said:

"incel" syndrome sufferers

I'd compare it more to a pattern or a losing streak than a syndrome. It's hard to break out of once you've gotten to the point where you're reluctant or you confidence is broken. Or I think the confidence breaking thing is the primary symptom if we're looking at it like a syndrome. I try in a round-about way but when it comes to being direct because in this type of science it really is a paramount to avoid desperation, or worse being guilty of harassment. I'm ultra sensitive to these things, and it is maddening. I believe I can say with confidence that the underlying cause of the condition is victimizing through villainization, the "creep" word would be the villain in that metaphor. But the creep is the victim. 

On 6/14/2024 at 9:02 AM, Phi for All said:

I'm probably completely off-base here, but it seems like incels are too focused on the kind of women who like aggressive men (and are turned off by anything else).

This is the heart of the issue. You know the whole confidence versus arrogance. Well the hero is supposed to confident, and the primary identification for the villain is that he thinks he's the hero to fit that role. So that is the difference between confidence and arrogance. I'd prefer to be indirect, and just avoid the drama altogether. A lot of times it's more amusing, especially for women, to just villainize the crap out of you...brutally. At least in my experience. The use of jealousy for instance. I work on being cordial in the three body problem situation, I'm cool with it, especially when frustration transmutes into fury. When in fact that's exactly what led to my first windshield-cracking level bareknuckle barfight. So once you have practice keeping your cool, it still doesn't matter you've already fallen into the pattern and understanding the ways in which it manifests changes nothing. Don't be obvious or what you call aggressive, don't show desperation as it is a weakness, embrace the sexual repression, accept it. Seek reverence not validation. So avoid the drama at all costs, but try in your own way. Discretion, indirectness, these have their strengths. But when time isn't on your side, what then? 

On 6/14/2024 at 2:54 PM, MSC said:

You're not off base but there is more to it. Subjective beauty standards plays a role in the minds of these men wherein because they are plastered with highly edited images and videos of models, actresses etc they believe this is the ONLY kind of desirable woman.

Actually not anymore. That was in my younger years, and it's not going to be broken. Now look at the current Iris West (DC comics) in film compared to the one in the comics. Look at the lady in the new Roadhouse versus the old one. You see what Hollywood is doing to reverse the female roles? The male roles, what is considered attractive as man, they don't change. Almost like they're testing to see at what age is it too late, when do we get set in our desires/preferences? 

On 6/17/2024 at 1:19 PM, orgotude said:

sensationalist

I know about sensationalism and it I accept that it's important to understand what is real. But that makes the reality of the situation far more difficult to accept which defeats of the purpose of not being like this guy in this video which we'll call the clown.

Now if you start your litany against the senses, to the point of extreme repression, you end up like this:

To the point where you really can't even be productive because you're just absorbed by cynicism. 

There's somewhere in the middle, between work and reward. I'm closer to work. 

Edited June 20 by ImplicitDemands

[ImplicitDemands]

On 6/15/2024 at 12:27 PM, orgotude said:

I find it hard to explain why the US has allowed land and housing to become a cost-prohibitive, morality-free market investment scheme, where the purpose is to maximize monetary return, rather than make sure someone else who needs it occupies it after you die

The echo of an attempt at leveraging the world to work to ones own advantage is probably due to sex, capitalism and politics or the caste system probably has its roots in sexuality or courtship. As I said you really can't worry about your sexual needs if you are worried about more basic needs first. To think that sexuality, specifically male-driven, is the square root of all of war throughout human history isn't at all far fetched. Look at the post, look at how complicated it is, look at how maddening it is. 

It makes me question evolution theory, what with humans being smaller than other predators, less dangerous, when the only times smaller animals get the upper hand on larger predators is through pack-strategy. It's hard to have that in mammals for the reasons above. Not to mention also having to raise/teach/protect children. Sex is a powerful motivator in men, but it's hard to organize strategy when it becomes unfair and it is by nature unfair. 

[swansont]

8 hours ago, ImplicitDemands said:

It makes me question evolution theory, what with humans being smaller than other predators, less dangerous, when the only times smaller animals get the upper hand on larger predators is through pack-strategy. It's hard to have that in mammals for the reasons above. Not to mention also having to raise/teach/protect children. Sex is a powerful motivator in men, but it's hard to organize strategy when it becomes unfair and it is by nature unfair. 

I’m not aware of “fairness” being an element of evolutionary theory, or even that this is an issue of fairness.