Who do I vote for to aid singles suffering involuntary celibacy

[CharonY]

On 6/22/2024 at 8:39 AM, geordief said:

Have there been studies to show that incels as a group  can be defined as misogynistic(my suspicion)?

If so ,everything that follows that seems like it  would be a self reinforcing delusion.

 

I did find one study online

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/14614448231176777

but have no idea how  rigorous it is and whether there are more studies that contradict or reinforce it (and I don't have the patience or concentration to go right  through it  myself)

The  (current) incel culture seems to be an internet phenomenon and in its current form is highly aligned with misogyny. Because of the recency of this movement, most publicants are quite new, but I believe some have drawn connections to other misogynist movements. Interestingly, the term itself was originally coined by a woman but as all things internet, things eventually moved to a very different place (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45284455).

A common theme with this research seems to be that the extreme (and sometimes violent) outcrops of this movement are associated with internet-based reinforcement of grievances, coupled with a strong rejections to address underlying psychological issues (see e.g. https://www.jstor.org/stable/27026635). It is obvious that these are self-reinforcing vicious cycles.

Misogyny is a bit of a connecting tissue where all the related grievances are connected and cemented. As we also see here, affected men arrive with certain misogynist preconceptions into these communities. There are more detailed investigations into how these tendencies are expressed and one way to look at that is in how incels express masculinity. From what I understand, some common concepts include hegemonic masculinity, in which society is seen as hierarchic with (certain) men on top whereas women and other forms of masculinity are assumed to be naturally subordinate (to whatever ideal they have in mind). A related concept is that of hybrid masculinity in which masculinity is constructed from different bits and pieces and create hegemonies that are less traditional. In the context of incel, this is interesting as the hegemonic tendencies are usually front and center. But interestingly, they also see themselves as victim of... something. The something can differ between individuals and sub-groups, but ultimately, hegemonic masculinity is then perpetuated by proclaiming a type of hybrid masculinity. Common examples include that they are victim of feminism (despite being the stronger men) but they can also adopt subjugated position related to e.g. (perceived or real) mental issues, looks, socioeconomic status and so on.

The discrepancy between where they think they should be in society (due to the hegemonic perspective) and where they are, allows (or forces) them to adopt this incongruent stance in order to be both, perpetuator and victim at the same time. A potential reason of not wanting to improve their situation is possible that any improvement would clash with their deeply ingrained worldview. After all, if the world is crazy, lack of success is not their fault. Yet if they get partial success by improving things, it might suggest that they have been wrong after all. And that is a tough pill to swallow.

[orgotude]

This whole "anti-self-identified-incel" sentiment reminds me of the "yay science is great" human memes in r/SanFrancisco cheering that right-wing conservative supreme court justices might make arresting the homeless slightly more legal soon in Grants Pass vs. Johnson.  Their position, and the position of the supreme court would be that "involuntariness" can always be argued as "voluntary", including in matters outside of homelessness.  And furthermore that "cruelty against the self-professed involuntary is not actually cruelty because they can voluntarily escape their sitaution".  They keep arguing that in r/SanFrancisco about the homeless in their city and natonwide.  The opinion about involuntariness vs voluntariness in all human spheres was also a preliminary Supreme Court opinion by a right-wing supreme court justice in Grants Pass vs. Johnson.  That argument of course has nothing to do with science and probably more to do with the political opinions of those human memes.

Peel back the cover of the extreme center posing as the left and, much like the right, you'll find punching down and also engaging in pointless human cruelty, because the center can't explain why it exists or even identify what is going on around itself.  Or even that the cause of political issues involving personal responsibility on a societal scale might be itself.

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

The  (current) incel culture seems to be an internet phenomenon and in its current form is highly aligned with misogyny. [...] blah blah self-identified incels are too masculine, or even worse, [the current year gender "science" term for perverted masculine] and not feminist enough blah

"My recurring fantasy, through this period, was to have been born a woman, or a gay man, or best of all, completely asexual, so that I could simply devote my life to math, like my hero Paul Erdös did. Anything, really, other than the curse of having been born a heterosexual male, which for me, meant being consumed by desires that one couldn’t act on or even admit without running the risk of becoming an objectifier or a stalker or a harasser or some other creature of the darkness."

"All this time, I faced constant reminders that the males who didn’t spend months reading and reflecting about feminism and their own shortcomings—even the ones who went to the opposite extreme, who engaged in what you called “good old-fashioned ass-grabbery”—actually had success that way. The same girls who I was terrified would pepper-spray me and call the police if I looked in their direction, often responded to the crudest advances of the most Neanderthal of men by accepting those advances. Yet it was I, the nerd, and not the Neanderthals, who needed to check his privilege and examine his hidden entitlement!"

"Is there any relevant difference between the two cases beyond: “undesirability” of the disabled, fat, and trans should be critically examined and interrogated, because those people are objects of progressive sympathy; whereas “undesirability” of nerdy white and Asian males should be taken as a brute fact or even celebrated, because those people are objects of progressive contempt^?"

People of conscience will need to be extremely vigilant against motte-and-bailey tactics—wherein opinion-makers will express their desire for all “incels” to be silenced or fired or removed from the gene pool or whatever, obviously having in mind all romantically frustrated male nerds (all of whom they despise), and will fall back when challenged (and only when challenged) on the defense that they only meant the violence-loving misogynists."   --Scott Aaronson, award-winning American professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Aaronson
https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=3766

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

self-identified incels see themselves as victim of... something.

Incels are the victims of patriarchy, monogamy, and selfish attitudes.  This will be fixed in Feminism 5.0, which involves a new legion of tomboy females.  If the incels' demands are not met by the tomboy legion there will be more diplomatic talks with the various parties involved.

Edited June 23 by orgotude

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, orgotude said:

This whole "anti-self-identified-incel" sentiment reminds me of the "yay science is great" human memes in r/SanFrancisco cheering that right-wing conservative supreme court justices might make arresting the homeless slightly more legal soon in Grants Pass vs. Johnson.  Their position, and the position of the supreme court would be that "involuntariness" can always be argued as "voluntary", including in matters outside of homelessness.  And furthermore that "cruelty against the self-professed involuntary is not actually cruelty because they can voluntarily escape their sitaution".  They keep arguing that in r/SanFrancisco about the homeless in their city and natonwide.  The opinion about involuntariness vs voluntariness in all human spheres was also a preliminary Supreme Court opinion by a right-wing supreme court justice in Grants Pass vs. Johnson.  That argument of course has nothing to do with science and probably more to do with the political opinions of those human memes.

Except in this case, @ImplicitDemands claims it is involuntary in one post, then in another post implies he can find a mate if he is willing to lower his standards, which he refuses to do.

So is a fellow really involuntarily starving because he refuses the roast beef sandwich, when his high standards demand caviar?

Edited June 23 by zapatos

[orgotude]

10 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Except in this case, @ImplicitDemands claims it is involuntary in one post, then in another post implies he can find a mate if he is willing to lower his standards, which he refuses to do.

So I a fellow really involuntarily starving because he refuses the roast beef sandwich, when his high standards demand caviar?

I can't speak for him but I know for sure there I had never met a single person willing to date me from 2005-2018 that was female and not monogamously married.   And I tried.  Things changed after that.  I didn't change, but at some point I started vlogging out of frustration, resulting in 8-9 females willing to date me, some of whom did, and I appreciate them. But I can sympathize with incels because I know incel is real.  There might be someone for everyone, but people sometimes cannot find that someone.  One of my favorite hobbies is helping to pair up people rather than rag on people who want to be paired.

Edited June 23 by orgotude

[zapatos]

7 minutes ago, orgotude said:

One of my favorite hobbies is helping to pair up people rather than rag on people who want to be paired.

I think your implication that we like to 'rag on people who want to be paired' is off the mark. I think people here are getting tired of the constant whining from this particular person, who is claiming that the system is treating him unfairly as he is entitled to have certain women fall for him due to his six-pack abs and "status". 

All practical suggestions by members have been dismissed, which makes at least me wonder why he bothered to come here in the first place, if he is not interested in what we have to say.

Edited June 23 by zapatos

[orgotude]

4 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I think your implication that we like to 'rag on people who want to be paired' is off the mark. I think people here are getting tired of the constant whining from this particular person, who is claiming that the system is treating him unfairly as he is entitled to have certain women fall for him due to his six-pack abs and "status". 

All practical suggestions by members have been dismissed, which makes at least me wonder why he bothered to come here in the first place, if he is not interested in what we have to say.

nah the first page of this thread is universally negative, people were ready to complain about some reddit subculture he doesn't belong to or something

he isn't entitled to anyone but there probably is someone for him out there

Edited June 23 by orgotude

[CharonY]

Just now, zapatos said:

I think people here are getting tired of the constant whining from this particular person, who is claiming that the system is treating him unfairly as he is entitled to have certain women fall for him due to his six-pack abs. 

All the while failing to recognize that the six-pack is neither part of the issue or the solution. 

 

Just now, zapatos said:

All practical suggestions by members have been dismissed, which makes at least me wonder why he bothered to come here in the first place, if he is not interested in what we have to say.

And for the reason mentioned above. While trying to claim that their issues is comparable to that of homeless or other marginalized groups is despicable, there is at least some overlap in the broadest sense. Both groups frequently have mental issues and there are aspects which prevents them from seeking or implementing help. There is some push to be more compassionate and figure out ways where they learn to identify their issues and work on ways to address them. I am fairly certain that significant one-on-one work can improve issues. Otoh, an online forum is probably the worst place trying to address that. Usually, that space is used to validate themselves, which obviously won't address the issue at large.

 

[orgotude]

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

While trying to claim that their issues is comparable to that of homeless or other marginalized groups is despicable

 

If that makes you upset, try reading Charles Fourier, you'll disavow the beginning of nominal socialism and feminism if you read him.

Edited June 23 by orgotude

[zapatos]

8 minutes ago, orgotude said:

nah the first page of this thread is universally negative, people were ready to complain about some reddit subculture he doesn't belong to or something

he isn't entitled to anyone but there probably is someone for him out there

Read the rest of the thread before you tell me I'm wrong. Show me where he accepted someone's advice. You came in here being negative to everyone here in your first posts so be careful before you throw stones.

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, orgotude said:

If that makes you upset, try reading Charles Fourier, you'll disavow the beginning of nominal socialism and feminism if you read him.

What does that have to do with anything? 

[orgotude]

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

What does that have to do with anything? 

These are not new arguments born from masculinities or failure to accept whatever recent version of feminism.  The arguments about guaranteeing sexual matters in some way while comparing them to phenomena such as homelessness.  Arguing for incels, and arguing against petite-bougie sexual behaviour among women in market economies has a long history in human left-wing thought, not just some Reddit right-wing or misogynistic subculture from 2016.

Edited June 23 by orgotude

[MSC]

29 minutes ago, orgotude said:

One of my favorite hobbies is helping to pair up people rather than rag on people who want to be paired.

Wanting to be paired doesn't fix the issue that in this particular case; women find @ImplicitDemandsthreatening and emotionally insecure. Therefore dangerous to pair with or have children with. I'm not saying some incels might just be unlucky with the women around them in general but in this case, I think it's a case that social cues to avoid him, are being thrown out by OP. 

Let me ask you this; would you opt in to being a matchmaker for someone you believed might physically attack their partner?

People who want to be "paired" for the sake of being in a relationship or just having someone to have sex with, honestly aren't ready for the commitment it takes to make one work as anyone who comes near will only be seen as a means to an end and women can pick up on these things far better than men can. 

[CharonY]

16 minutes ago, orgotude said:

These are not new arguments born from masculinities or failure to accept whatever recent version of feminism.  The arguments about guaranteeing sexual matters in some way while comparing them to phenomena such as homelessness.  These arguments have a long history in human left-wing thought, not just some Reddit right-wing or misogynistic subculture from 2016.

These are different discussions, unless you mean that sexually rejected folks all fall under the same category (and throughout history). And this is not so. Obviously there are folks who are, for a wide range of reasons unable to find a sexual partner (and again, the person who coined the phrase is a woman). But incel is not (anymore) a term that refers to folks who are unable to find sexual partners. It is a mostly internet-based movement and folks referring to themselves as incels are more often than not are part of the sub-culture (as opposed to either being part of the original 2000's movement or using the term literally). And the subtext in their argument is not precisely subtle.

[orgotude]

11 minutes ago, CharonY said:

These are different discussions, unless you mean that sexually rejected folks all fall under the same category (and throughout history). And this is not so. Obviously there are folks who are, for a wide range of reasons unable to find a sexual partner (and again, the person who coined the phrase is a woman). But incel is not (anymore) a term that refers to folks who are unable to find sexual partners. It is a mostly internet-based movement and folks referring to themselves as incels are more often than not are part of the sub-culture (as opposed to either being part of the original 2000's movement or using the term literally). And the subtext in their argument is not precisely subtle.

Ok I do not care about this reddit thing, go somewhere else about it.  neither the OP or myself are apart of Lamarcus Sm*lls forum.  Or at least I assume he isn't given there's only like 400 people posting there compared to the millions who'd be ready to self-identify as involuntarily celibate or whatever shortened variation.

Can you imagine being so narrowly focused?

It'd be like me claiming every single person who self-identifies as incel subscribes to "vaginocapitalism theory" just because the originator of that theory leads the self-identified incels in Russia.

Edited June 23 by orgotude

[ImplicitDemands]

 

[CharonY]

4 minutes ago, orgotude said:

ok I do not care about this reddit thing, go somewhere else about it.  neither the OP or myself are apart of Lamarcus Sm*lls forum.  Or at least I assume he isn't given there's only like 400 people posting there compared to the millions who'd be ready to self-identify as involuntarily celibate or whatever shortened variation.

Not sure why you (as the only one) keep referring to reddit. Unless you are assuming that there is only one or two relevant internet fora. And not, say wikis and other resources that reinforce that ideology?

[MSC]

32 minutes ago, CharonY said:

There is some push to be more compassionate and figure out ways where they learn to identify their issues and work on ways to address them. I am fairly certain that significant one-on-one work can improve issues. Otoh, an online forum is probably the worst place trying to address that. Usually, that space is used to validate themselves, which obviously won't address the issue at large

And to add to this @orgotude; the people best equipped to deal with this, aren't here. We aren't professional therapists able to detach from our own feelings on things to listen to others for hours on end. There has been plenty of compassion and offers of help thrown at OP. OP doesn't trust therapists or the people best trained to legitimately help him improve his life and you can only vent about things that bother you for so long before you're not venting, you're obsessing and dosing yourself with the same stress cocktail you had before you started venting. It's a bad cycle to get into. OP feels like he is a victim in some way and that not having sexual partners is some kind of trauma done purposefully by other people when really it's just people exercising their free will to say no verbally and non verbally. If he continues to just not move forward and start focussing on what he can control, himself and who he chooses to be, instead of wishing he could control the women he wants into sleeping with him or for someone to arrange a relationship for him when he hasn't proven himself capable of handling one, then social deterrents and consequences are going to come out. This is human nature.

[orgotude]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

Not sure why you (as the only one) keep referring to reddit. Unless you are assuming that there is only one or two relevant internet fora. And not, say wikis and other resources that reinforce that ideology?

Because the Anglosphere gender studies articles which I find your talking points in exlusively focus on 3 sets of people.  The people who were apart of Bharg9's Reddit forum, then the people who were apart of that ban evasion in r/incels, then the people who were apart of that ban evasion in 2-3 Xenforo forums.

[CharonY]

2 minutes ago, orgotude said:

Because the Anglosphere gender studies articles which I find your talking points in exlusively focus on 3 sets of people.  The people who were apart of Bharg9's Reddit forum, then the people who were apart of that ban evasion in r/incels, then the people who were apart of that ban evasion in 2-3 Xenforo forums.

Strange, the first mention of reddit was your post. The article I linked only referred to reddit (which was banned), 4chan and an unnamed forum they did the survey on. You do seem to be well informed on the broader internet ecosystem surrounding the incel community (suggesting that it is not quite as obscure as I thought it is?). 

That being said the article is specific to one forum- but there are more articles out there looking at different aspects, if you are interested.

[MSC]

Quote

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Rita Mae Brown

Just pulling this quote out here. But who knows, maybe if incels keep telling women that they arent identifying what is subjectively attractive correctly, they'll get somewhere... Maybe if they get right up in a womens face and scream "My favourite colour is red, like me because it means I'm powerful!" They'll swoon? 

Or maybe, women with moral compasses aren't into men who sound like they just got out of the Sith Academy on Korriban...

[orgotude]

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Strange, the first mention of reddit was your post. The article I linked only referred to reddit (which was banned), 4chan and an unnamed forum they did the survey on. You do seem to be well informed on the broader internet ecosystem surrounding the incel community (suggesting that it is not quite as obscure as I thought it is?). 

That being said the article is specific to one forum- but there are more articles out there looking at different aspects, if you are interested.

I have interacted with the Anglosphere gender-obsessed or crime-obsessed types that write these articles.  99% are only interested in the forum succession I laid out.  There is someone asking about the first 16 years of self-identified incel forum history instead of the last 7 on Reddit, but it's honestly too little too late.  I'm just choosing to ignore the obsession and focus instead on the literal meaning of the term.  If the word incel is too stigmatized I am open to alteranative words but I have a feeling they'd be co-opted and stigmatized just the same.  But please keep in mind when i am saying "incel", I am not saying "Lamarcus Sm*lls forum or related subculture".

And again I assume the same is true of OP considering how small that forum is and how large the internet outside that is.

Edited June 23 by orgotude

[MSC]

7 minutes ago, orgotude said:

And again I assume the same is true of OP considering how small that forum is and how large the internet outside that is.

Here is the difference between me and you, we both can find a way to empathise with OPs plight but whereas you assume things about him, I go off the content of his character based on what I know about how he writes and his choice of words and ultimately just remembering things he's said. He said he is unapologetically selfish for example just a few pages back. Well, I'm doing him a favour by saying if you're like that, finding someone is going to be a lot harder and it seems like whomever that someone is will need to be a masochist to some degree because I don't think OP in his current mental state is capable of treating a partner with respect consistently enough to not abuse them out of callousness. 

And again, the fix to that is going to a therapist or someone who can help, honestly saying "I'm really selfish, it's stopping me from forming relationships. How can I be less selfish?" And just going from there.

[orgotude]

41 minutes ago, MSC said:

Here is the difference between me and you, we both can find a way to empathise with OPs plight but whereas you assume things about him, I go off the content of his character based on what I know about how he writes and his choice of words and ultimately just remembering things he's said. He said he is unapologetically selfish for example just a few pages back. Well, I'm doing him a favour by saying if you're like that, finding someone is going to be a lot harder and it seems like whomever that someone is will need to be a masochist to some degree because I don't think OP in his current mental state is capable of treating a partner with respect consistently enough to not abuse them out of callousness. 

I don't agree with everything OP says but I noticed he's used as a proxy to argue against something most outside that forum would not want to associate with: the blackpill, male supremacist, right-wing, hyper-traditionalist people specifically.  If I had to bet money, I would bet he is not part of the 400 people posting on Lamarcus Sm*lls forum simply due to mathematical chance, but also because that forum is extremely right-wing and the OP started out with some radical left-wing theory, drawing my attention to sign up here to post in this thread.

Stigmatized demographics are unfairly judged by the actions of the worst among them.  It's pretty much the definition of stigma.  But honestly there's nothing more I can do to disavow the forum subculture that people keep bringing up apart from literally performing a citizens arrest of the blackpill incel crime encouragement forum owner that gender studies articles use to broadbrush involuntary celibates.  And that guy is not OP or myself.

But that is outside of my interest or legal authority and there's already a public and activist movement to have him arrested anyway, mostly led by mom's of dead children of a sister suicide site he started.

Hell, 7 members of Congress have asked the DOJ to prosecute the owner of that forum.  I can't do more than the DOJ can.  And if he truly commited no crimes then there's nothing else to do about that subculture or him.  People have already called his forum and prior ones in that lineage deviant, misogynistic, male supremacist, hybrid masculine, whatever whatever 9000 billion times. I don't care about that forum, related ones, or the subcultures that partially define it anymore. 

I want to just talk about the literal meaning of the term.

Edited June 24 by orgotude

[swansont]

41 minutes ago, orgotude said:

I don't agree with everything OP says but I noticed he's used as a proxy to argue against something most outside that forum

On the contrary, I think you’re the one expanding the discussion beyond what the OP discussed, which included certain terminology that has a particular meaning. 

Whatever “that forum” is, it’s not part of this discussion.

[orgotude]

5 minutes ago, swansont said:

On the contrary, I think you’re the one expanding the discussion beyond what the OP discussed, which included certain terminology that has a particular meaning. 

Whatever “that forum” is, it’s not part of this discussion.

I have a question for you, do you think incel means involuntary celibacy, or the subculture of a particular forum lineage, used in gender studies and criminology articles, further used in digital journalism.  I am not going to assume things before you change your mind.

I you have no clear answer I'm not participating in gaslighting bullshit from you and will continue to ignore the more substantive posts you make, along with 2-3 other people.

Edited June 24 by orgotude