Invert sugar

[YT2095]

I was reading yesterday about yeast and fermentation for a new project I`m working on with a friend, it said that Sucrose has to be 1`st broken down into 2 different smaller sugars by the yeast 1`st before it can start the fermentation, it also mentioned what if you use glucose or fructose the yeast can work on this right away.

it Also said that if you take ordinary sucrose dissolve it in water and add a T`spoon of citric acid and boil it for half an hour, when it cools it`ll have broken these sugars down into the smaller ones the yeast can use. I`ve heard that Hydrochloric acid will do the same too.

 

now then, I`de like to know what happens to this citric acid or HCl After it`s done its job?

do I end up with acidic sugars?

 

for instance, where does the Chlorine go?

[woelen]

Acid acts as a catalyst on the breakdown of alfa-d-glucopyranosyl-(1->2)-beta-d-fructofuranoside . So, your chlorine from the HCl does not go into an organic molecule.

The same is true for breakdown of even longer polysaccharides and also starch and the like. This is the reason, why the stomach contains some HCl. Combine with certain enzymes the breakdown in fact is quite fast at body temperature. Without the enzyme, indeed you might need to heat quite some time.

[YT2095]

so then you Do get your sugars that you need, but it`s contaminated with the catalyst?

 

I should imagine in that case then that HCl would be the better of the 2 to use as the vapor pressure in a boiling medium will drive it off eventualy then?

whereas the citric acid will not.

[woelen]

so then you Do get your sugars that you need' date=' but it`s contaminated with the catalyst?

 

I should imagine in that case then that HCl would be the better of the 2 to use as the vapor pressure in a boiling medium will drive it off eventualy then?

whereas the citric acid will not.[/quote']

I think you are right, but I'm not quite sure what happens when the liquid is boiled to dryness. An azeotropic mix of H2O/HCl boils at 120C or something like that. With the sugars added in the boiling point may even be higher, it might be that they start decomposing. I would give it a try at test tube scale first.

[jdurg]

After looking at the drawings of the sugar molecule in solution, I wonder if it would be possible to nitrate glucose? There are plenty of -OH groups there just screaming out 'NITRATE ME!'. I just wonder if the sulfuric acid would decompose the sugar before the nitric could nitrate it.

[jsatan]

I'm sure you can boil it and it will be just fine,

But if it all fails then you can buy it near the coffee in most shops,

 

You're not trying to make a battery are you YT?

I was going to make one but never got around to it, lol.

All I needed was a acid membrain, (this things in hydrogen fuel cells).

Anyway I'm at the library due to no internet at home, just moved, llol. !!!

[YT2095]

ok, In order, Jdurg Yes you CAN nitrate sugars, and No it`s NOT a good idea, as you`de be breaking laws, other than that, barring a runnaway reaction, grab a handy det cap and have a Blast

 

jsatan , No, if you`de read the entire post, it`s Nothing at all to do with batteries and Everything to do with Beer!

 

right, now MY turn... Will the acid residue have any bad/negative effect on Diastatic enzymes?

[jdurg]

I think you are right, but I'm not quite sure what happens when the liquid is boiled to dryness. An azeotropic mix of H2O/HCl boils at 120C or something like that. With the sugars added in the boiling point may even be higher, it might be that they start decomposing. I would give it a try at test tube scale first.

 

From what I can find, the HCl/H2O azeotrope happens at a 20.2% (by mass) HCl concentration and the solution boils at 108 degrees Celcius.

 

HCl is actually more effective at breaking down sucrose into fructose and glucose than the enzyme sucrase is. I think the problem with using it is that being such a strong acid, it can have some nasty effects on the brewery that is constantly having HCl added to it, and if there is even a tiny bit of excess in there, it can make the resulting drink far too 'tart' to handle. Citric acid is very mild in that regard.

[YT2095]

Citric acid is a yeast nutrient also, and so, Somehow it`ll utilise this to the benefit of the beer, but!

I`ve only ever know it used in Wine making, and since we`re after a Light ale (abv 5% MAX) I cant see how citric can be usefull, although 1 T`spoon in 6 gallon would get "Lost" quite easily

[woelen]

From what I can find, the HCl/H2O azeotrope happens at a 20.2% (by mass) HCl concentration and the solution boils at 108 degrees Celcius.

Nice to read this, I mixed up some numbers (the 20) .

 

I wonder if it would be possible to nitrate glucose?

As I mentioned before, you can do this, but be very careful. Before you know it, you have a runaway reaction (YT also mentioned it)!

 

In fact, there are explosives, based on sugars, e.g. nitromannitol. Chained structures like cellulose can also be nitrated. In cellulose, three OH-groups are present in all of the six-carbon units, (C6H10O5)n. During the nitration reaction, all of these hydroxyl-groups can be nitrated, resulting in trinitrocellulose, (C6H7O5(NO2)3)n.

 

If you really want to nitrate something with your nitric acid, then take some cotton wool (mostly cellulose, also a chain of sugar-like molecules), pluck this apart, and immerse the pieces in a mix of 1 part of conc. HNO3 and 1.5 parts of conc. H2SO4 for 30 minutes and occasional swirling. For 2 gram of cotton wool take appr. 20 ml of nitrating mix. After the reaction dump all of it at once in a large bucket of water (e.g. 10 liters of tap water) (do this at once, otherwise you get local hotspots!). Rinse the cotton wool with water, then rinse with dilute sodium bicarbonate, until there is no more bubbling, then again rinse with water to remove the bicarbonate and let dry by plucking it apart and putting it at a dry place. After a day or two, it will be dry and then the fun can start. Light a small piece of it. Do not confine the stuff to a small space.

 

With the nitrating reaction, there is a small chance of runaway, but with cellulose the risk is much lower than with sugar or other organics. If you see a slight reddening of the liquid or observe brown fumes during the reaction, IMMEDIATELY dump the whole lot in a bucket full of water, otherwise you may have a fire, an explosion or at least a huge cloud of NO2! These things are signs of onset of a runaway reaction (I know this from multiple personal experiences ).

[jdurg]

Oh I was fully aware of the nitrating of cellulouse. I plan on doing some of that this weekend with some 100% pure cotton balls that I have in the bathroom cabinet. I'll be bringing those along and nitrating them one at a time. ;D

 

The procedures I've read about have used glass tongs to pick up and place a cotton ball in a nitration mixture. After the nitration, the cotton is dunked into a beaker of ice water, then into a beaker of cold bicarbonate, then into another beaker of bicarbonate to ensure there's no bubbling, then into a final beaker of water before drying.

[neutrino86]

No.You should cool the nitrating mixture itself before starting the reaction.

...The bicarbonate is used to neutralise any acidic residues in the sample, for, upon drying, they would else digest the gun cotton, making it a waste, or in the same process, generate enough heat to detonate it.

No matter how much one tries to cleanse the NC, one can never get rid of some trace acids, which could again as said before lead to explosions, etc.by some reacions, unknown to me at the moment.

Thus it is wise to store your NC in distilled water....And wise to not store it at all:).

[jdurg]

Hehe. I wouldn't have the willpower to store it anyway. The plans are to 'test it' as soon as it is synthed. As for the nitration mixture, it was assumed that one would have it iced down as the formation of the nitration liquid from the two concentrated acids requires an icey temperature as the mixing of the liquids themselves generates a LOT of heat.