Can someone sense the imminent death of someone special?

[Luc Turpin]

On 6/15/2024 at 2:55 PM, Phi for All said:

I think it's garbage. This is all explained by normal sensory behaviors. We have a really good field of vision, amplified by hearing that helps focus in the right directions. And of course we understand how it happens, it's not some mystical woo magic. Rupert Sheldrake?! Jesus, you don't need him to explain anything about science.

You've heard all this before, though. You've posted this elsewhere and took it down when you got answers you didn't like. Are you arguing for this in good faith?

There are multiple documented cases during world war II of mothers having premonitions over the death of their son or daughter. The pattern is usually the following: a strong emotional bond between mother and child, mother not necessarily thinking about their son or daughter, but suddenly feeling a pit in the stomach then knowing  with certainty that he/she had passed away. Some say they heard in their heads their sons daughter cry out for help. The death was usually confirmed later with actual time of death coinciding with the moment of the premonition moment. This is not proof of anything, but, once again, should not be dispelled without investigation.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

There are multiple documented cases during world war II of mothers having premonitions over the death of their son or daughter. The pattern is usually the following: a strong emotional bond between mother and child, mother not necessarily thinking about their son or daughter, but suddenly feeling a pit in the stomach then knowing  with certainty that he/she had passed away. Some say they heard in their heads their sons daughter cry out for help. The death was usually confirmed later with actual time of death coinciding with the moment of the premonition moment. This is not proof of anything, but, once again, should not be dispelled without investigation.

It seems arrogant of you to assume I'm dispelling anything without investigation. There have been "documented" cases of supernatural abilities ever since we've been able to document. And there have been investigations into these claims as well. You may have started this thread, but you shouldn't get away with these blanket claims of hidebound, unreasoned dismissal here. You're playing an intellectually dishonest game of "Heads I win, tails you lose!"

Proof of anything? There is none, for anything, so science looks for the best supported explanations instead. These magical emotional bonds you describe have been claimed by every generation since we learned to write our histories down. Yet the theory of evolution tells me that such a magnificent trait, one that protects life and makes an individual more likely to survive to procreate, would be selected for in every generation, strengthening these abilities and making them even more worthy of selection. So if this is not just selective perception or confirmation bias, why hasn't this ability gotten stronger, or even strong enough after hundreds of generations to be observable through repeated experimentation and trials?

When I add that basic observation to all the testing and experimentation into supernatural abilities that have been done, all the peer-reviewed studies by scientists who were really hoping to find some validity to the claims, I find I can relegate these claims to the low-signal/high-noise junkpile of "things that are almost certainly false".

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

There are multiple documented cases during world war II of mothers having premonitions over the death of their son or daughter. The pattern is usually the following: a strong emotional bond between mother and child, mother not necessarily thinking about their son or daughter, but suddenly feeling a pit in the stomach then knowing  with certainty that he/she had passed away. Some say they heard in their heads their sons daughter cry out for help. The death was usually confirmed later with actual time of death coinciding with the moment of the premonition moment. This is not proof of anything, but, once again, should not be dispelled without investigation.

“documented cases” is short of the rigor needed for scientific evidence. If the sampling isn’t random, you have sampling and confirmation bias occurring. So unless your documentation includes everyone who had a premonition, and not just the ones for whom it came true, it’s not scientific.

Given your stance on bias in science, surely you knew this.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

The death was usually confirmed later with actual time of death coinciding with the moment of the premonition moment

The simpler answer here is that this is conformation bias. Humans find patterns everywhere even when they’re not there. Pareidolia Is powerful, and all one needs to do is think of the countless many more times people die and nobody feels anything. 

Until / unless you survey ALL deaths and compare that against times loved ones felt “something,” you also have a sampling bias. You have anecdotes, not data. Further, you’ll need to propose a mechanism better than Sheldrakes morphic resonance.

[Luc Turpin]

44 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

It seems arrogant of you to assume I'm dispelling anything without investigation. There have been "documented" cases of supernatural abilities ever since we've been able to document. And there have been investigations into these claims as well. You may have started this thread, but you shouldn't get away with these blanket claims of hidebound, unreasoned dismissal here. You're playing an intellectually dishonest game of "Heads I win, tails you lose!"

Proof of anything? There is none, for anything, so science looks for the best supported explanations instead. These magical emotional bonds you describe have been claimed by every generation since we learned to write our histories down. Yet the theory of evolution tells me that such a magnificent trait, one that protects life and makes an individual more likely to survive to procreate, would be selected for in every generation, strengthening these abilities and making them even more worthy of selection. So if this is not just selective perception or confirmation bias, why hasn't this ability gotten stronger, or even strong enough after hundreds of generations to be observable through repeated experimentation and trials?

When I add that basic observation to all the testing and experimentation into supernatural abilities that have been done, all the peer-reviewed studies by scientists who were really hoping to find some validity to the claims, I find I can relegate these claims to the low-signal/high-noise junkpile of "things that are almost certainly false".

You jump to conclusion too fast and put everything in the same junkpile. I am not playing a  “ Heads I. win tail you lose” game. I am only trying to present things that might not be covered here in this forum. I did claim, but also stated that it did not prove anything. You claim that these phenomena have been studied and I claim they have not. Finally, this was not an attack on you, but a mere mention of something that might have been missed in the premonition discussion

39 minutes ago, swansont said:

“documented cases” is short of the rigor needed for scientific evidence. If the sampling isn’t random, you have sampling and confirmation bias occurring. So unless your documentation includes everyone who had a premonition, and not just the ones for whom it came true, it’s not scientific.

Given your stance on bias in science, surely you knew this.

The study that I looked at a while ago had hundreds if not thousands of cases all with same outcome. What it did not include were those having a premonition without outcome and no premonition with outcome, which makes the study rather inconclusive. I would have liked for this line of investigation to be pursued, but have no knowledge if it occurred or not

39 minutes ago, iNow said:

The simpler answer here is that this is conformation bias. Humans find patterns everywhere even when they’re not there. Pareidolia Is powerful, and all one needs to do is think of the countless many more times people die and nobody feels anything. 

Until / unless you survey ALL deaths and compare that against times loved ones felt “something,” you also have a sampling bias. You have anecdotes, not data. Further, you’ll need to propose a mechanism better than Sheldrakes morphic resonance.

Agree, may be conformation bias at play

[Phi for All]

13 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

You jump to conclusion too fast and put everything in the same junkpile.

Fortunately for me, I study rigorously within my own limitations, and I have grand access to some excellent scientific minds, and I don't have to think twice about your ridiculous notions of how "fast" I'm being. It doesn't take a lot of time looking at available evidence to conclude that an explanation is unlikely, and one can always extract something from the junkpile the second it provides evidence that it doesn't belong there. You post as if unlikely = impossible, and I really wish you'd stop misrepresenting my stance. 

[joigus]

I sometimes wonder why people can't sense the imminent possibility that someone special is risking all their money on a Ponzi scheme. Nearly as life-threatening as bullets, when you think about it.  

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

You claim that these phenomena have been studied and I claim they have not.

I claim you're wrong since you could easily go on Google Scholar and look up all the studies done worldwide on premonitions. Enjoy yourself because I'm done wasting my time on your lack of reasoning and rigor.

[TheVat]

5 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

There are multiple documented cases during world war II of mothers having premonitions over the death of their son or daughter.

I have this sudden premonition that the rest of this thread will be about sampling bias.

Cue: "plate of shrimp" monologue in Repo Man.

ETA: So I read down the thread and... it's like I am psychic.  Science should really look into this!   

[Luc Turpin]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

The simpler answer here is that this is conformation bias. Humans find patterns everywhere even when they’re not there. Pareidolia Is powerful, and all one needs to do is think of the countless many more times people die and nobody feels anything. 

Until / unless you survey ALL deaths and compare that against times loved ones felt “something,” you also have a sampling bias. You have anecdotes, not data. Further, you’ll need to propose a mechanism better than Sheldrakes morphic resonance.

I do not need Sheldrake’s morphic resonance; just mind through, which has not yet been completely investigated

3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Fortunately for me, I study rigorously within my own limitations, and I have grand access to some excellent scientific minds, and I don't have to think twice about your ridiculous notions of how "fast" I'm being. It doesn't take a lot of time looking at available evidence to conclude that an explanation is unlikely, and one can always extract something from the junkpile the second it provides evidence that it doesn't belong there. You post as if unlikely = impossible, and I really wish you'd stop misrepresenting my stance. 

So you had heard about the world war II study that I mentioned? How about Pietsch and the hologramic mind and Penfield’s work, and Persinger’s? Or how about Stanislov Groof’s thirty years of work analyzing LSD experiments. May I be offered a bit of healthy scepticism. I do think that saying that it’s “garbage” is not discussion conducive 

2 hours ago, joigus said:

I sometimes wonder why people can't sense the imminent possibility that someone special is risking all their money on a Ponzi scheme. Nearly as life-threatening as bullets, when you think about it.  

Life and death circumstances seem to be expressed differently by the brain than other life circumstances. That they are real or not, NDE’s have peculiarities that are different from everyday experiences 

[swansont]

24 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

So you had heard about the world war II study that I mentioned? How about Pietsch and the hologramic mind and Penfield’s work, and Persinger’s? Or how about Stanislov Groof’s thirty years of work analyzing LSD experiments. May I be offered a bit of healthy scepticism. I do think that saying that it’s “garbage” is not discussion conducive 

Mentioning studies without summarizing and linking to them is also not conducive to discussion. What does LSD have to do with death premonitions?

[Luc Turpin]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I claim you're wrong since you could easily go on Google Scholar and look up all the studies done worldwide on premonitions. Enjoy yourself because I'm done wasting my time on your lack of reasoning and rigor.

Not saying premonitions are real, but just adding information to ensure that we have, well, an informed discussion about it. I is your prerogative to ignore me. 

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

I have this sudden premonition that the rest of this thread will be about sampling bias.

Cue: "plate of shrimp" monologue in Repo Man.

ETA: So I read down the thread and... it's like I am psychic.  Science should really look into this!   

Sorry you feel that way, but understand because I am bringing up controversial themes that science has dismissed to readily out of hand. Premonitions is one of them, not disproved, and certainly not proven. Personally, I do not think that it exists, but I will have to accept it if there is an over abundance of proof.

 

8 minutes ago, swansont said:

Mentioning studies without summarizing and linking to them is also not conducive to discussion. What does LSD have to do with death premonitions?

I was trying to make a point by mentioning names only. LSD experimentation seems to open the brain to a broader perspective of reality, which seems to favour mind through brain rather than mind from brain. We are all learning from one another.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

I was trying to make a point by mentioning names only. LSD experimentation seems to open the brain to a broader perspective of reality, which seems to favour mind through brain rather than mind from brain. We are all learning from one another.

How about we stick to the topic. Do you have any scientific evidence to present?

[Luc Turpin]

7 minutes ago, swansont said:

How about we stick to the topic. Do you have any scientific evidence to present?

premonitions may be possible under mind through brain, but not mind from brain. LSD experiments seem to show mind through brain processes. I will try and find evidence for premonitions when I get back home, but agree that it is scarce. As for LSD experiments and the world war II studies, they are not on the net, but I will try and get into contact with the authors.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

premonitions may be possible under mind through brain, but not mind from brain. LSD experiments seem to show mind through brain processes. I will try and find evidence for premonitions when I get back home, but agree that it is scarce.

Then there’s nothing to discuss. This isn’t going to be used as a back door to discuss mind/brain. You have a thread for that.

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

As for LSD experiments and the world war II studies, they are not on the net, but I will try and get into contact with the authors.

Don’t bother unless you intend to start a thread to discuss that.