NO MORE JOBS

[Gian]

Hi kids

I don't find it will happen literally. Eg some politicians may look a bit robotic but they're not made of metal and wires.

But there is ever increasing automation of traditional jobs, especially manual jobs, eg someone's invented a machine which can lay bricks 3x faster than a man.

On a theoretical basis, what would society look like if ALL paid employment became automated so there's no more jobs for human beings?

I guess all money in the economy would eventually flow to the owners of the means of production, people who own all the robots and robot factories.

Everyone else, the jobless, cash-less proletariat, would I guess have to go back to the land, to the state they were in before the industrial revolution, and then they'd eventually have to start the whole process of industrialisation again.

Does this sound valid? Any other ideas?

Cheerz

GIAN🙂

Edited June 28 by Gian

[exchemist]

29 minutes ago, Gian said:

Hi kids

I don't find it will happen literally. Eg some politicians may look a bit robotic but they're not made of metal and wires.

But there is ever increasing automation of traditional jobs, especially manual jobs, eg someone's invented a machine which can lay bricks 3x faster than a man.

On a theoretical basis, what would society look like if ALL paid employment became automated so there's no more jobs for human beings?

I guess all money in the economy would eventually flow to the owners of the means of production, people who own all the robots and robot factories.

Everyone else, the jobless, cash-less proletariat, would I guess have to go back to the land, to the state they were in before the industrial revolution, and then they'd eventually have to start the whole process of industrialisation again.

Does this sound valid? Any other ideas?

Cheerz

GIAN🙂

Fear of the effects of automation on existing jobs is hardly a new phenomenon in history, cf. The Luddites. Every previous wave of automation has led to new jobs appearing to replace those that were lost. So I'm sceptical that IT-driven automation will lead to what you term "a jobless, cashless proletariat".  But previous waves of automation and other causes of radical changes in employment pattern, such as deindustrialisation, can certainly leave people behind with the wrong skills, and/or in the wrong places, to benefit from future opportunities. We've learnt (or I hope at least we've learnt) that the resulting social dislocation needs to be managed, not just left to blind market forces. Reskilling programmes and an active industrial policy, run at regional level, seem to be needed. 

[Gian]

4 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Fear of the effects of automation on existing jobs is hardly a new phenomenon in history, cf. The Luddites. . 

Thanks, well reskilling could involve going back to the land for some.

But I was just wondering what would happen theoretically (in the style of how many angels fit on a pinhead) if there really were absolutely no paid jobs left whatsoever

Cheerz

GIAN🙂

Edited June 28 by Gian

[exchemist]

13 minutes ago, Gian said:

Thanks, well reskilling could involve going back to the land for some.

But I was just wondering what would happen theoretically (in the style of how many angels fit on a pinhead) if there really were absolutely no paid jobs left whatsoever

Cheerz

GIAN🙂

In that unlikely eventuality, there would need to be a different economic regime, in which people were paid enough  to support themselves from taxation levied on the businesses that operated the robots. Political parties would see the opportunity to get elected on such policies.   

[Sensei]

 

Have you heard of influencers on YouTube (or other social media)? This is the "dream job" of most of today's teenagers.

 

2 hours ago, Gian said:

But there is ever increasing automation of traditional jobs, especially manual jobs, eg someone's invented a machine which can lay bricks 3x faster than a man.

I like this machine. Nice IT/embedded programming job..

 

2 hours ago, Gian said:

On a theoretical basis, what would society look like if ALL paid employment became automated so there's no more jobs for human beings?

There is even a movie about it, for children (at a time):

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0910970/

 

 

2 hours ago, Gian said:

Everyone else, the jobless, cash-less proletariat, would I guess have to go back to the land, to the state they were in before the industrial revolution, and then they'd eventually have to start the whole process of industrialisation again.

..but all the land would be bought by the rich.. jobless.. cash-less proletariat cannot afford to buy land..

 

 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Gian said:

On a theoretical basis, what would society look like if ALL paid employment became automated so there's no more jobs for human beings?

How do you want it to look? That’s the beauty of fiction.

The element of truth in this is that we make the rules, so it will work however we want it to. You could e.g. go full communism and everything is shared equally. But you have to describe the rules to know how it should turn out.

[Gian]

10 minutes ago, swansont said:

How do you want it to look?

What would it look like in a totally free-market capitalist economy? (Not that there is such a thing of course)

42 minutes ago, Sensei said:

 

 

 

 

Jobless.. cash-less proletariat cannot afford to buy land..

 

 

They could I guess if they used their last cash to buy it, and livestock and seed. Then being penniless they'd have to start subsistence farming. There's no other option

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Gian said:

What would it look like in a totally free-market capitalist economy?

Without state or public ownership, eventually the largest private owners would own everything. Then they'd deal amongst themselves until one or two managed to buy up the others, and finally one would manage to outmaneuver the other and own it all. 

So 100% capitalism would eventually look like a monarchy or dictatorship, with everyone working for the king, who owns it all.

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Gian said:

What would it look like in a ? (Not that there is such a thing of course)

How do you have a totally free-market capitalist economy if nobody has a job? People not earning money can’t buy things.

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

So 100% capitalism would eventually look like a monarchy or dictatorship, with everyone working for the king, who owns it all.

Working? What’s that?

[Phi for All]

12 minutes ago, swansont said:

How do you have a totally free-market capitalist economy if nobody has a job? People not earning money can’t buy things.

Working? What’s that?

I didn't feel that part of the OP was in good faith, so I didn't respond to the "no jobs for anyone" extremism. Who cares who makes the product if nobody has the money to buy it? But 100% capitalism is something many people mistakenly think would be a good thing. 

[Gian]

45 minutes ago, swansont said:

How do you have a totally free-market capitalist economy if nobody has a job? People not earning money can’t buy things.

Exactly so. There'd be one small group of aristocrats who'd own all the factories, which would gradually dwindle to almost nothing as the only people the aristocracy could by from and sell to would be each other. 

The rest of the proletariat would try be self-sufficient farmers, operating in a cashless barter economy.

 

[iNow]

1 minute ago, Gian said:

the proletariat would try be self-sufficient farmers, operating in a cashless barter economy.

That sounds miserable 

[CharonY]

22 minutes ago, iNow said:

That sounds miserable 

Also weird. It sounds like there would be no need for factories as there are too few people able to buy things. So why increase productivity by automation?

[Phi for All]

41 minutes ago, Gian said:

The rest of the proletariat would try be self-sufficient farmers, operating in a cashless barter economy.

Ummm, who owns this land they're trying to farm?

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Gian said:

Exactly so. There'd be one small group of aristocrats who'd own all the factories, which would gradually dwindle to almost nothing as the only people the aristocracy could by from and sell to would be each other. 

The rest of the proletariat would try be self-sufficient farmers, operating in a cashless barter economy.

 

Can’t do that without a massive drop in population. My guess is the masses would rise up in revolt.

[exchemist]

35 minutes ago, swansont said:

Can’t do that without a massive drop in population. My guess is the masses would rise up in revolt.

Yes of course they would. In practice this state would never be reached, as government policies would be adopted by degrees to maintain a life for the population that avoided civil unrest.

[swansont]

20 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Yes of course they would. In practice this state would never be reached, as government policies would be adopted by degrees to maintain a life for the population that avoided civil unrest.

It’s like an old joke about getting directions in New England - “You can’t get there from here”

 

[MigL]

Who fixes the robots ?
Who programs them ?
Who handles the data and logistics to keep them all operating.

Jobs change; they don't vanish.

Yes, you'll have to work till you're 65.

[Gian]

37 minutes ago, MigL said:

Who fixes the robots ?
Who programs them ?
Who handles the data and logistics to keep them all operating?

Other robots of course

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Ummm, who owns this land they're trying to farm?

They bought it with their last few pennies. No more cash afterwards

3 hours ago, iNow said:

That sounds miserable 

It would be.

I guess they'd have to go through the industrial revolution again, with the same result, repeating cyclically.

Cheerz

GIAN🙂XXX

Edited June 28 by Gian

[Phi for All]

4 minutes ago, Gian said:

They bought it with their last few pennies. No more cash afterwards

Awww, that's so cute! But if I'm one of the trillionaires who owns most everything else, I can make it impossible for you to keep and work that land, so you eventually have to sell to me like everyone else did. This kind of money can do things money isn't supposed to do.

I'm still discussing the ownership aspect of your OP, since robots making everything for people who have no money to buy anything seems far-fetched and uninteresting. I firmly believe there will always be jobs that require a human presence, no matter how good we get at robotics. 

[Ghideon]

10 hours ago, Gian said:

But I was just wondering what would happen theoretically (in the style of how many angels fit on a pinhead) if there really were absolutely no paid jobs left whatsoever

Do you mean a world where there are all currently paid jobs are performed by robots? So there are robot military, police, doctors, nurses, teachers, politicians, judges, fire fighters, attorneys, robot-repair robots, robot-developing robots etc? This also includes anyone paid to control robots or paid to establish and maintain robot policies (they are also replaced by robots?). In your scenario, what keeps robots from evolving priorities that does not favour human?

[Gian]

On 6/28/2024 at 8:22 PM, Phi for All said:

Awww, that's so cute! But if I'm one of the trillionaires who owns most everything else, I can make it impossible for you to keep and work that land, so you eventually have to sell to me like everyone else did. This kind of money can do things money isn't supposed to do.

I'm still discussing the ownership aspect of your OP, since robots making everything for people who have no money to buy anything seems far-fetched and uninteresting. I firmly believe there will always be jobs that require a human presence, no matter how good we get at robotics. 

Hope so