Shots fired at Trump rally in Pennsylvania

[toucana]

Shots have been fired at former president Trump while he was speaking onstage at a political rally in the town of Butler 35 miles north of Pittsburgh Pennsylvania within the last hour today.

According to the rolling BBC News channel, a sniper with a rifle opened fire from the roof of a low building outside the perimeter of the rally. Witnesses say that a number of shots were fired, and that up to 4 people in the crowd behind the stage were hit. Trump himself was apparently grazed on the ear by a bullet and fell to the floor behind the rostrum before the stage was swarmed and surrounded by Secret Service agents. Blood could be seen on his right ear as he was bustled into an SUV. Other casualties were seen being taken on stretchers to ambulances

An Information Director for  the Trump campaign later said that he had been taken to a medical facility and was unhurt. The BBC say that other law enforcement sources claim the gunman had been ‘neutralised’.

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Normal disclaimer of not speculating about factual issues; wait for news that has been confirmed. Early reports are often quite wrong.

And please link to your sources.

 

[iNow]

It was being shown live on Fox and you can watch it here

 

 

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, MSC said:

Trumps followers will feel emboldened to act more violently and the spin in Trumpworld will be this was a "deepstate" hit ordered by Biden.

That is exactly the disinformation message being amplified right now across platforms. 

6 minutes ago, MSC said:

he's either saying "I'm alright" or "fight" but I think it's the latter. 

I read it as FIGHT

[TheVat]

The decline 

1 minute ago, MSC said:

This is really going to get worse now, I feel in the sense that Trumps followers will feel emboldened to act more violently and the spin in Trumpworld will be this was a "deepstate" hit ordered by Biden. 

Had a similar reaction.  America is a huge amplification chamber (resonance chamber, in science jargon) for violence.  

Also, has marksmanship training declined along with book literacy and school arts programs?  

[MSC]

1 minute ago, TheVat said:

Also, has marksmanship training declined along with book literacy and school arts programs?  

In this case, I dont think so just based on where Trump put his hand and where his ear was during the shot. Nape of his neck and the back of his head was in that spot moments before. I think the shot was lined up and Trump just happened to move and accuracy only tends to decrease after the first shot in such short intervals also not much is known about the gunman so we don't yet know what sort of training they've recieved. Could be ex military (my guess is this) or just a hobby gunman like a hunter. 

So far all I'm aware of is that the firing spot was outside of the rally or what the weather was like so couldn't even begin to describe how distance, wind and earth curvature might affect the shot. 

9 minutes ago, iNow said:

read it as FIGHT

I imagine we'll find out soon enough when he posts to social media. I imagine it will be very... inciteful.

[Alex_Krycek]

14 minutes ago, MSC said:

Could be ex military (my guess is this) or just a hobby gunman like a hunter. 

So far all I'm aware of is that the firing spot was outside of the rally or what the weather was like so couldn't even begin to describe how distance, wind and earth curvature might affect the shot. 

I imagine we'll find out soon enough when he posts to social media. I imagine it will be very... inciteful.

In terms of logistics, this seems like a massive security failing by police and secret service.  The guy was only 1200 feet away and multiple witnesses pointed him out to police before the actual attack.  

Unfortunately 10% of Americans support the use of violence against Trump, according to a recent poll.  So with so many firearms available, this kind of thing is increasingly likely.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/13/trump-rally-shooting-political-violence

Edited July 14 by Alex_Krycek

[MSC]

8 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

terms of logistics, this seems like a massive security failing by police and secret service.  The guy was only 1200 feet away and multiple witnesses pointed him out to police before the actual attack

Based on the video you shared; it seems like there were some issues with angle of line of sight where the witnesses could see the shooter but not the police at the edge of their security perimeter and they probably had trouble hearing what was going on over the sounds of Trump and the rally. It's definitely a security failing but it also sounds super rural so less police presence/funds for event security and I don't know what sort of budget a former presidents SS detail has at their disposal.

Or maybe Trump just isn't the sort of person cops and his security won't half ass the job on. The unseen consequences of being an asshole I guess.

[StringJunky]

I'm not surprised. Could happen the other way too. 

[MSC]

24 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

with so many firearms available, this kind of thing is increasingly likely.

I'm curious to see if the republicans will all of a sudden be more keen on stricter gun control laws after this. Might alienate some of their base in doing so though. More likely they'll just use this as more reasons why more guns need to be out there. Assuming the assassin would have been thwarted if everyone had been carrying a gun. 

[Trurl]

Well the shooter was misguided in thinking assignating Trump would change the Republican Party from winning. IMHO.

You have to win the Country by becoming a good leader. Taking Trump out of the picture might not even benefit the Democrats. They can’t even decide on the candidate.

I saw a YouTube vid of Micho Kaku were he stated he was drafted into the U.S. Army during the Vietnam war and saw a weapons demonstration. He saw the we can blast an enemy and have much more firepower, but this just makes the enemy double down.

It is possible to assasinate well known figures, but I don’t think the end result is what the assassin intends. Besides attempting such a thing forfeits the shooter’s life.

Trump takes a lot of criticism for stupid things he says, but when he was President there was less wars. He threatened to make NATO pay, but he wouldn’t dismantle it.

I find a conundrum with NATO. We join together so that one is attacked we all defend. But instead of securing us we alienate other countries that aren’t members. Does that make other Countries feel they have less influence on what happens in the World?

I know that is off topic but I think that should be the issue of the campaign. And assignations will not solve anything.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Alex_Krycek said:

10% of Americans support the use of violence against Trump, according to a recent poll.

And the number of Americans who feel violence may be necessary against political opponents skyrockets to nearly 30% among just Republicans. It’s interesting how that important context wasn’t included in your comment. 
 

https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/getting-us-back-on-track-20-percent-believe-resorting-to-violence-necessary-biden-trump-2024-election-president-marist-poll-democrats-republicans-party-lines-inflation-economy-abortion-second-amendment-religion-migrants-southern-border

Quote

20% of Americans admitting they may consider resorting to violence as a means to get the country back on track. When broken down by political affiliation, Republicans emerge as more inclined towards this notion, with 28% expressing readiness to consider violent actions, compared to 12% of Democrats.

 

18 minutes ago, Trurl said:

[Trump] threatened to make NATO pay, but he wouldn’t dismantle it.

He told you this himself, did he? Btw, Biden is better at getting results than Trump on that front, too:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3gr90jnxjvo#

Quote

By the end of Trump’s presidency, four more Nato countries had hit the alliance’s guidelines of spending at least 2% of national income on defence. So far during President Biden’s term, another 13 countries have reached the target.

 

18 minutes ago, Trurl said:

I know that is off topic but

But nothing. Start a different thread for nato conversations. You’re at least correct about this. It’s off-topic here. 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

It's speculated the shooter was a member of ANTIFA.

Oh, FFS. And the plan for the attack today was on Hillary’s email server too, I bet.  Reminder:

 

2 hours ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

Normal disclaimer of not speculating about factual issues; wait for news that has been confirmed. Early reports are often quite wrong.

And please link to your sources.

 

 

Edited July 14 by iNow

[MSC]

14 minutes ago, Trurl said:

t is possible to assasinate well known figures, but I don’t think the end result is what the assassin intends. Besides attempting such a thing forfeits the shooter’s life

Definitely true. Martyr or surviving the attempt this was only going to end badly for the country. Trump is a master narcissist and will milk a sympathy bump for all it is worth while using this to prep people for the Big Lie 2.0 if he loses the election. The more people he can get to believe there was a vast conspiracy around this attempt, it won't be much of a stretch from there to say it was rigged. He was gonna do it anyway but now it'll have more potency. 

These next 6 months... and probably years are going to be really bad in terms of political unrest and violence. Anyone else feel like they are sitting on a powder keg?

[iNow]

Just now, MSC said:

will milk a sympathy bump for all it is worth while using this to prep people for the Big Lie 2.0 if he loses the election

I find it more likely that he uses it the way Hitler used the Reichtag Fire

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-reichstag-fire

[MSC]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

I find it more likely that he uses it the way Hitler used the Reichtag Fire

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-reichstag-fire

Yeah, I can see that. Will probably be "making jokes" at rallies (remotely from a screen with a live feed to a bunker somewhere saying his bone spurs are acting up) guaging responses to phrases like "you guys wouldn't mind being home by 9pm if it meant keeping the other guys off the streets right?" Or "You'd give up your guns if I asked and you knew I was taking the radical leftists guns too right?" Or "You know what would be really cool? If I had my own cops and soldiers on the streets all the time protecting us all from Antifa and the radical leftist marxists. Would you all like that?" 

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4770769-trump-biden-speak-rally-shooting/

Biden is condemning the shooting and has reached out to Trump. FBI investigating. Gunman still unidentified or identity isn't being shared yet. Trump will probably be getting a bigger security detail after this and it wouldn't surprise me if the secret service beefs up Bidens and others details too. 

Really wish I knew what was said between them now.

[iNow]

16 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

I full acknowledge the other poll you mentioned if you can source it

It was sourced when it was shared. Violence acceptable as a political tool.

Democrats: 

Strongly Agree - 7%

Agree - 5%

Disagree - 21%

Strongly Disagree - 65%

 

Republicans: 

Strongly Agree - 6%

Agree - 22%

Disagree - 40%

Strongly Disagree - 30%

 

Independents: 

Strongly Agree - 5%

Agree - 13%

Disagree - 40%

Strongly Disagree - 42%

 

Polling conducted 3 months ago. Results are statistically significant within ±3.5 percentage points.

Edited July 14 by iNow

[Alex_Krycek]

So the shooter has been identified as Thomas Matthew Crooks.  A registered Republican and firearms enthusiast.  

 

Edited July 14 by Alex_Krycek

[toucana]

The Republican National Convention is due to start in Milwaukee Wisconsin USA  tomorrow  - Monday  15 July 2024. You can’t help wondering if these security arrangement are likely to be rethought ?

https://apnews.com/article/republican-national-convention-security-perimeter-protesters-parade-491834e6d26cc1c580d09b1384f9c09d

 

Quote

 

MILWAUKEE (AP) — People will be allowed to carry guns within blocks of the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee next month and protesters will be given two outdoor stages, one within sight of the convention arena, under a security plan law enforcement authorities released Friday.

Demonstrators pushed back, arguing that the plan’s protest zones are so far from the Fiserv Forum that they won’t be seen or heard.

The plan calls for two perimeters that extend for blocks around the arena. Vehicles will have to pass through checkpoints to travel between the two boundaries. Pedestrians will be allowed to move freely without being screened in that area but only convention goers will be allowed within the inner perimeter.

No weapons of any kind will be allowed within the inner perimeter but people will be able to carry guns openly or concealed elsewhere as allowed under state law. Wisconsin statutes outlaw only machine guns, short-barreled shotguns and silencers. [AP - June 21,2024]     (emphasis added)

 

 

 

[swansont]

7 hours ago, Alex_Krycek said:

So the shooter has been identified as Thomas Matthew Crooks.  A registered Republican and firearms enthusiast.  

 

Here’s a link

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3gw58wv4e9o

[TheVat]

10 hours ago, iNow said:

And the number of Americans who feel violence may be necessary against political opponents skyrockets to nearly 30% among just Republicans. It’s interesting how that important context wasn’t included in your [Alex's] comment

Polls seem to generally indicate Republicans, spurred on by Trump's violent rhetoric, are more approving violence.

This Axios (Brookings/PRRI) survey from last October shows GOP leaning more towards political violence....

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/25/support-us-political-violence-prri-brookings-survey

The survey found that 23% of Americans agree that "because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country."

• That's up from 15% in 2021, when the Jan. 6 insurrection led researchers to start asking about political violence, using terms that seek out those who would see such violence as akin to patriotism.
• One-third of Republicans believe that "patriots" may have to resort to violence to "save the country," compared with 22% of independents and 13% of Democrats.
• Those percentages have increased across the board since 2021, when 28% of Republicans, 13% of independents and 7% of Democrats held this belief.

6 hours ago, toucana said:

The Republican National Convention is due to start in Milwaukee Wisconsin USA  tomorrow  - Monday  15 July 2024. You can’t help wondering if these security arrangement are likely to be rethought ?

I would guess the playful popping of those balloons that fall from the ceiling will be discouraged, this time around. 

Edited July 14 by TheVat
add

[exchemist]

Looks to me as if a win for Trump in November is now a racing certainty and our American friends will need to get a ready for a dose of:

while we in Europe need to boost our defences urgently and prepare for the the world to have to deal with three major hostile authoritarian blocs. Once Trump is in, they'll never get him out until he dies and, once the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025 is in train, it will take decades after Trump's eventual departure to get a properly functioning democracy back again. 

 

[swansont]

51 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Looks to me as if a win for Trump in November is now a racing certainty

Why?

[exchemist]

9 minutes ago, swansont said:

Why?

He'll be able to pose as courageous and virile (compared to his opponent) , win sympathy, channelling JFK, and persuade another slice of the electorate that there are dark forces trying to stop him by fair means or foul.  

[StringJunky]

3 minutes ago, exchemist said:

He'll be able to pose as courageous and virile (compared to his opponent) , win sympathy, channelling JFK, and persuade another slice of the electorate that there are dark forces trying to stop him by fair means or foul.  

That can be muted if the Project 25 manifesto is kept front and centre up to the election.

[swansont]

3 minutes ago, exchemist said:

He'll be able to pose as courageous and virile (compared to his opponent) , win sympathy, channelling JFK, and persuade another slice of the electorate that there are dark forces trying to stop him by fair means or foul.  

Has that ever worked before?