The charge of electrons

[JC1]

What would happen if electrons have more or less charge than it is now?

[Douglas]

Not sure I understand. Can you amplify??

[Xyph]

The laws of physics would change considerably, probably resulting in a completely different Periodic Table and completely different (and more complex) atomic bonding. Not sure beyond that, although that would have far reaching effects alone.

[J.C.MacSwell]

There would be a net "anti-gravity" effect for all objects if the charge was greater (more negative charge) than the proton's (positive charge).

 

There would be a net "extra gravity" effect for all objects if the charge was less (less negative charge) than the proton's (positive charge).

[swansont]

The laws of physics would change considerably, probably resulting in a completely[/i'] different Periodic Table and completely different (and more complex) atomic bonding. Not sure beyond that, although that would have far reaching effects alone.

 

The laws of physics would be unchanged, but the results would certainly be different.

[Martin]

What would happen if electrons have more or less charge than it is now?

 

this has been discussed a lot by prominent physicists----I dont remember who all but the names Lee Smolin, Freeman Dyson and John Barrow come to mind.

 

Technically they tend to phrase the question differently, like they ask

what would happen if the FINE STRUCTURE CONSTANT alpha were one percent bigger than what it is, or one percent smaller?

 

the fine structure constant is a number that is approximately 1/137 or more exactly 1/137.036

that tells how strongly charges interact

 

it is the socalled "coupling constant" in electrodynamic theory

 

making alpha slightly larger would have the same effect as making the ELEMENTARY CHARGE slightly larger (the "elementary charge" is the charge on the electron and except for sign difference also the sign on the proton)

 

you would have to change the electron and proton charge equally or else atoms wouldnt be neutral anymore, so what people are really talking about is always changing the ELEMENTARY CHARGE (not just the charge on the electron but the charges on ALL particles by the same percentage)

 

and that boils down to changing the number alpha (approx 1/137) because alpha is the universal handle on how strongly electric charges interact.

 

[to be real finicky, increasing the square root of alpha by one percent would be the same as increasing the elementary charge----e.g. the charge on the electron---by one percent, but mathematical exactitude isnt the point]

 

====================

 

so the bigname physicists that discuss this calculate how much and in what way it would screw up the universe to change alpha by a little bit.

 

It would change lots of things, like what atoms are stable, what the periodic table of elements looks like, how stars burn, whether or not our oceans would just up and spontaneously fuse like a big old hydrogen bomb, vaporizing the earth, and what kinds of chemical reactions would and wouldn't work

 

make alpha substantially bigger and hydrogen in the sun wont fuse because the two protons repell each other too strongly, so the sun wouldnt shine

 

and the periodic table might only contain ONE ELEMENT namely hydrogen because the other nuclei, with more than one proton, wouldnt hold together.

so chemistry would be a very boring subject

 

on the other hand make alpha substantially smaller and it would be too easy for hydrogen to fuse and the sun would burn itself up too fast, because protons wouldnt repell each other ENOUGH.

 

Lee Smolin has a theory that alpha is fine tuned so that our universe can have a long life with lots of stars and so that it can produce a lot of black holes-----the universe has evolved its parameters like alpha so it can be prolific in producing black holes.

 

nobody really knows why alpha is tuned in a way that promotes longlived slowburning stars and a large periodic table of elements with complex chemistry.

[JC1]

this has been discussed a lot by prominent physicists----I dont remember who all but the names Lee Smolin' date=' Freeman Dyson and John Barrow come to mind.

 

Technically they tend to phrase the question differently, like they ask

[b']what would happen if the FINE STRUCTURE CONSTANT alpha were one percent bigger than what it is, or one percent smaller?[/b]

 

the fine structure constant is a number that is approximately 1/137 or more exactly 1/137.036

that tells how strongly charges interact

 

it is the socalled "coupling constant" in electrodynamic theory

 

making alpha slightly larger would have the same effect as making the ELEMENTARY CHARGE slightly larger (the "elementary charge" is the charge on the electron and except for sign difference also the sign on the proton)

 

you would have to change the electron and proton charge equally or else atoms wouldnt be neutral anymore, so what people are really talking about is always changing the ELEMENTARY CHARGE (not just the charge on the electron but the charges on ALL particles by the same percentage)

 

and that boils down to changing the number alpha (approx 1/137) because alpha is the universal handle on how strongly electric charges interact.

 

[to be real finicky, increasing the square root of alpha by one percent would be the same as increasing the elementary charge----e.g. the charge on the electron---by one percent, but mathematical exactitude isnt the point]

 

====================

 

so the bigname physicists that discuss this calculate how much and in what way it would screw up the universe to change alpha by a little bit.

 

It would change lots of things, like what atoms are stable, what the periodic table of elements looks like, how stars burn, whether or not our oceans would just up and spontaneously fuse like a big old hydrogen bomb, vaporizing the earth, and what kinds of chemical reactions would and wouldn't work

 

make alpha substantially bigger and hydrogen in the sun wont fuse because the two protons repell each other too strongly, so the sun wouldnt shine

 

and the periodic table might only contain ONE ELEMENT namely hydrogen because the other nuclei, with more than one proton, wouldnt hold together.

so chemistry would be a very boring subject

 

on the other hand make alpha substantially smaller and it would be too easy for hydrogen to fuse and the sun would burn itself up too fast, because protons wouldnt repell each other ENOUGH.

 

Lee Smolin has a theory that alpha is fine tuned so that our universe can have a long life with lots of stars and so that it can produce a lot of black holes-----the universe has evolved its parameters like alpha so it can be prolific in producing black holes.

 

nobody really knows why alpha is tuned in a way that promotes longlived slowburning stars and a large periodic table of elements with complex chemistry.

 

Thanks for your detail explanation. So you can see that the smallest change of these constants, to the billionth or even trillionth of decimal place would screw up the whole universe and i think we wouldn't be sitting here discussing this topic. You've stated "nobody really knows why alpha is tuned in a way that promotes longlived slowburning stars and a large periodic table of elements with complex chemistry", so do you really think all of these come to being by accident? i doubt it.

[Xyph]

I expected you were going to say something like that eventually.

 

If this universe is the only possible result that would allow us to discuss the fact, then it's rather ridiculous to speculate about how unlikely it is, since if things weren't the way they are, there wouldn't be anyone to conclude "Well, this universe isn't a very well designed one. God must not exist after all."

 

There could easily be a vast amount of universes that failed to ever produce life for every one that does, for that matter, but even if there aren't it doesn't make the conclusion you seem to have come to any more logical, since if things hadn't worked out the way they were you wouldn't be able to conclude the opposite.

[insane_alien]

i hate it when people(sorry creationists) use that argument

[JC1]

i hate it when people(sorry creationists) use that argument

 

Don't be hating. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

[Xyph]

It's obviously idiotic and nonsensical, but you can't seem to see that.