Electromagnetic field lines

[Bcook]

I am new to this forum, and interested in talking about very specific electromagnetic field line interactions.

When I reference field lines I am talking the field lines around a conductor, in other words the same field lines you would use to reference linear direction of current.

I have no formal education in the field so my terminology leaves a lot to be desired. I do have about 12 years of research on just field lines and their interactions.

I have several patents that are focused on field line interactions only.

When I talk about what I do, people seem to get lost and when I show whats going on it gets even worse.

Electromagnetism is a combination of electricity and magnetism, the magnetic field is perceived as being a north field or a south field.

For reference, my latest patent is for power factor correction harvesting.

The short of it is, if the volt amps for the motor to perform it's task is 1000 volt amps and it has a .65 power factor then when corrected to a 1 power factor

then the .35 difference is harvested onto a separate circuit for independent use, and motor performance is completely unaffected, as is current draw.

So I am just looking for someone who can follow and understand field lines, and my circuits can not be computer simulated, yet.

If this is unwelcome on this forum I apologize, Thanks

 

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, Bcook said:

When I reference field lines I am talking the field lines around a conductor, in other words the same field lines you would use to reference linear direction of current.

I have no formal education in the field so my terminology leaves a lot to be desired. I do have about 12 years of research on just field lines and their interactions.

I have several patents that are focused on field line interactions only.

When I talk about what I do, people seem to get lost and when I show whats going on it gets even worse.

Electromagnetism is a combination of electricity and magnetism, the magnetic field is perceived as being a north field or a south field.

Field lines aren’t physically real, they are a convenient way of describing the value of the field, like elevation contour lines on a map. 

Interaction with field lines is just a way of looking at an equation the depends on E or B, or on a derivative, which is sometimes referred to as “cutting” a flux line. It’s conceptual only.

[Mordred]

A good solid reference with regards to EM field lines including the relevant Maxwell equations can  be found with introductory to electrodynamics by Griffith.

The first 6 chapters if I recall should have all the relevant equation you will likely  need.

If you like after work as I have time I can post the relevant equations and relations between E and B fields.

Edited July 30 by Mordred

[exchemist]

16 minutes ago, Bcook said:

I am new to this forum, and interested in talking about very specific electromagnetic field line interactions.

When I reference field lines I am talking the field lines around a conductor, in other words the same field lines you would use to reference linear direction of current.

I have no formal education in the field so my terminology leaves a lot to be desired. I do have about 12 years of research on just field lines and their interactions.

I have several patents that are focused on field line interactions only.

When I talk about what I do, people seem to get lost and when I show whats going on it gets even worse.

Electromagnetism is a combination of electricity and magnetism, the magnetic field is perceived as being a north field or a south field.

For reference, my latest patent is for power factor correction harvesting.

The short of it is, if the volt amps for the motor to perform it's task is 1000 volt amps and it has a .65 power factor then when corrected to a 1 power factor

then the .35 difference is harvested onto a separate circuit for independent use, and motor performance is completely unaffected, as is current draw.

So I am just looking for someone who can follow and understand field lines, and my circuits can not be computer simulated, yet.

If this is unwelcome on this forum I apologize, Thanks

 

But how can that work? If the power factor is less than one, it means there is a component of the current vector normal to the voltage vector. That component constitutes a "wattless currrent", which transmits no energy. So there is nothing to "harvest", surely? It's just out of phase.

I confess my scam detector lights up a bit on this topic, as I have seen numerous fraudulent adverts over the years, claiming to gain energy from correcting power factors <1. To my understanding the only advantage of inserting a capacitance to counterbalance the inductance of a motor and bring the power factor closer to unity is that the wattless current does incur resistive losses in the circuit, which wastes some power, though typically not much.     

 

[Mordred]

The detail to understand is that magnetic field ie the B field does not perform work it is the E field that does the work.

[joigus]

26 minutes ago, exchemist said:

I confess my scam detector lights up a bit on this topic, as I have seen numerous fraudulent adverts over the years, claiming to gain energy from correcting power factors <1.

That would imply power losses are somehow being retreived after they've been lost to the thermal degrees of freedom, which I'm going to venture cannot be solved by cleverly arranging field lines.

54 minutes ago, Bcook said:

When I reference field lines I am talking the field lines around a conductor, in other words the same field lines you would use to reference linear direction of current.

This is not how field lines work in EM. The source of the E (electric) field is electric charge. It is polar, which means that the electric field lines come from the charge and diverge towards infinity, becoming more and more "rare". The source of the B (magnetic) field, on the other hand, is axial and circulates around the axis defining the current. It also becomes more and more "rare" the farther away we go, but with a different power law. Something like this:

 

This, plus how a changing E produces a B, and how a changing B produces an E, is the essence of Maxwell's equations.

[sethoflagos]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

I confess my scam detector lights up a bit on this topic, as I have seen numerous fraudulent adverts over the years, claiming to gain energy from correcting power factors <1. To my understanding the only advantage of inserting a capacitance to counterbalance the inductance of a motor and bring the power factor closer to unity is that the wattless current does incur resistive losses in the circuit, which wastes some power, though typically not much.

Although the wattless current does no work, it still has to be accommodated in the supply manifesting in larger cross-section conductors and larger generator kVA demand. Getting the kVA back closer to the kW load via a capacitor bank can yield substantial savings. 

[exchemist]

7 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

Although the wattless current does no work, it still has to be accommodated in the supply manifesting in larger cross-section conductors and larger generator kVA demand. Getting the kVA back closer to the kW load via a capacitor bank can yield substantial savings. 

At the level of a power network, sure, as the extra wattless current and the associated resistive losses are real enough, even if it transmits no power.  But at the level of an individual household, where the inductive loads are, say, a washing machine for an hour or two twice a week, and a fridge compressor from time to time? I doubt it.  

[TheVat]

 

Don't AC circuits always have a difference between watts and volt-amps?  Watts are the real power, the workhorse and VA is the reactive power i.e. the energy used to create the fluctuating magnetic and electric field that allow AC to work - my understanding is that you get that energy back as AC cycles.  So VA just tells you (ah, I see Seth's post) the AWG # and fusing needed to handle that current and that is more than just the current that's making power.  I had to be aware of this last winter adding an induction stove to the kitchen and new dedicated circuit for it.  I couldn't just add up the W for all the burners and oven.  Say the stove, running everything, used 7200 watts.  Well, I couldn't just put in a 30 A, 240 V circuit and confidently not risk overheating problems or breaker tripping.  It would need a 40A breaker.  And #8 wire.  (later, I learned that an induction stove is NOT really like a motor, that it manages an active power factor correction within the rectifier to maintain a PF close to 1, and maybe my circuit was a little over what was needed, but BSTS...)

Still, hard to see the expense of a capacitor bank or what have you.

[MigL]

Power factor aside, there is no such thing as field 'lines'.
The EM field is a vector field with a magnitude and direction at each point.
As such, the 'lines' are a simple to understand analogy that's representative of the direction component of the field.

[Mordred]

The truth is in order to understand the E field and B field as it pertains to the phase windings of a motor. Maxwell equations are essential. 

This includes any current calculation pertaining to motors such as that used in your OP. 

However Maxwell equations include several other key relations.

Gauss law

\[\nabla \cdot E\]

the dot refer to the inner product between two vectors. However E is the E is a vector field.

First diagram supplied by Joigus. Has a point of origin and diverges as an outgoing vector field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss's_law

Amperes law

\[\nabla \times B\]

 Here the × refers to the second graph supplied by Joigus above. This the curl, a curl is a complex vector function called a spinor. Now  this field is not divergent  details under Lorentz force  law next link. It also states that there is no magnetic charge. Link below includes both Amperes law and Lorentz force law

https://web.mit.edu/sahughes/www/8.022/lec10.pdf

Lorentz force law 

this one applies all the above. I will use the SI unit format from the above link

 

F=qv⃗ ×B⃗ 

this law directly pertains to the directional components and the force vectors of the E field.

Maxwell equations also include the Biot-Savart law Specific to the magnetic flux density however thats often overlooked 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biot–Savart_law

Another key law being Faradays law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday's_law_of_induction

In essence Maxwell equations provides us a means to account for all the above. see 13.3.1

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/134409-electromagnetic-field-lines/

Those will provide the essential equations pertaining to motors however each type of motor due to its design may require different relations using the above example 3 phase motor windings with alternating current, number of poles etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31 by Mordred

[Sensei]

12 hours ago, Mordred said:

The detail to understand is that magnetic field ie the B field does not perform work it is the E field that does the work.

A random particle travels through a B field and changes its direction of flight, accelerating/decelerating due to the presence of field B and the absence of field E. Doesn't it "do the work"? What do you mean at quantum scale "do the work"? It is the particles that do the work, i.e., accelerate/decelerate under certain circumstances, and they do it on both sides, the test particle and the particles that created the B-field..

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

A random particle travels through a B field and changes its direction of flight, accelerating/decelerating due to the presence of field B and the absence of field E. Doesn't it "do the work"?.

A charged particle in a B field will move in a circular (or spiral) path. The force is perpendicular to the velocity (F = qv x B). No work.

[Mordred]

You never have a magnetic field without an E field for starters. Secondly amperes law shows that electric current generates the B field.

 Work requires force. Force is a vector if you apply the right hand rule to Lorentz force you find the direction of the force terms which is not on the curl of the B field.

Cross posted with Swansont.

[exchemist]

14 hours ago, TheVat said:

 

Don't AC circuits always have a difference between watts and volt-amps?  Watts are the real power, the workhorse and VA is the reactive power i.e. the energy used to create the fluctuating magnetic and electric field that allow AC to work - my understanding is that you get that energy back as AC cycles.  So VA just tells you (ah, I see Seth's post) the AWG # and fusing needed to handle that current and that is more than just the current that's making power.  I had to be aware of this last winter adding an induction stove to the kitchen and new dedicated circuit for it.  I couldn't just add up the W for all the burners and oven.  Say the stove, running everything, used 7200 watts.  Well, I couldn't just put in a 30 A, 240 V circuit and confidently not risk overheating problems or breaker tripping.  It would need a 40A breaker.  And #8 wire.  (later, I learned that an induction stove is NOT really like a motor, that it manages an active power factor correction within the rectifier to maintain a PF close to 1, and maybe my circuit was a little over what was needed, but BSTS...)

Still, hard to see the expense of a capacitor bank or what have you.

 

Yes I expect most household appliance with an inductive component have a balancing capacitor somewhere, to stop power factors significantly adrift from 1 arising. As you say, I imagine that without it, the extra wattless current could play hell with circuit breakers etc. 

[Bcook]

Thanks for the replies.

If anyone is interested in seeing some demo's here is a web address showing and explaining what I see and do.

www.globalenergyapplications.com

I am not trying to hide anything, I am trying to explain the way I see the fields.

In my years of research and testing there have been dozens of professors baffled about the data they see in my circuits.

And never once has a professor been able to say "it's not real" or "you don't see what you think you see"

because with hands on testing they see exactly what I see as far as the data goes.

[exchemist]

12 minutes ago, Bcook said:

Thanks for the replies.

If anyone is interested in seeing some demo's here is a web address showing and explaining what I see and do.

www.globalenergyapplications.com

I am not trying to hide anything, I am trying to explain the way I see the fields.

In my years of research and testing there have been dozens of professors baffled about the data they see in my circuits.

And never once has a professor been able to say "it's not real" or "you don't see what you think you see"

because with hands on testing they see exactly what I see as far as the data goes.

I'd be more interested in how you say you "harvest" a wattless current, 90deg out of phase with voltage, onto a different circuit and make it do work.

[Mordred]

Lol +1

[studiot]

On 7/30/2024 at 9:04 PM, Bcook said:

I am new to this forum, and interested in talking about very specific electromagnetic field line interactions.

Hello and welcome.

 

I did was the videos and other stuff on the website you linked to, although it is a requirement of this forum that I should not need to.

I didn't see anything unexpected on the demos, though the explanations were somewhat hazy.

One thing that was not clear to me was your relationship to that website ??

Is it your site or are you a third party asking for our opinion on the material presented there ?

 

On 7/30/2024 at 9:04 PM, Bcook said:

I have several patents that are focused on field line interactions only.

There are several things to note about field lines.

1. There is no such thing as 'electromagnetic field lines'.  Hence there is no such thing as 'electromagnetic field lines'.
   There are electric field lines and there are magnetic field lines which are quite different, although there is a connection between them.
    
2. Field lines from a single source do not cross each other.
   If any field lines cross, they must be caused by a another source.
    
3. Electric field lines start on a charge and end on a charge or go to infinity.
   Magnetic field lines start on a pole and end on a pole, if there is one, or form closed loops.
    

4. On 7/30/2024 at 9:04 PM, Bcook said:

   the magnetic field is perceived as being a north field or a south field.

   Unlike electric fields for which a polarity can be distinguished, there is no such thing as a north magnetic field or a south magnetic field. Such fields would require the existence of 'magnetic monopoles' , which although they make the maths easy, have been sought but never observed. Big prize money is available for anyone who  demonstrates one.

 

I think the website demonstrator would do well to show a better understanding of transformer action. This is widely misunderstood in the difference between the activity in the primary and secondary.

 

Final point, the explanation of the circular magnetic field concerns to Direct Current, but transformers don't work at DC. The supply is actually alternating and so the magnetic field will be reversing at line frequency, which is why the little button magnet was jumping around in one of the videos.

Edited August 2 by studiot

[Bcook]

Ok, Everyone has an opinion and yet no one has an answer, that's fine.

If you spent all the time you felt you needed to conduct testing, as you would prefer, to whatever extent, you still may not understand.

This is not being negative to anyone, let me say that again and no disrespect for anyone's views or opinions.

I was not going to say anything but, On another forum I spent about 5 months corresponding with someone as he tried to understand what I am doing.

When he could not computer simulate circuits or understand the way I see things, he did like everyone else I have ever spent time with, quite.    

The reason you can't see it, is you don't look at what I look at,

My circuits are very simple by design, meaning very little to follow as far as field lines.

Magnetic field lines are imaginary lines that represent the direction and strength of magnetic force at any given point in space

An electromagnetic field is a magnetic field, if it's a magnetic field it can be viewed as field lines for reference.

For me it starts at the source, DIAMAGNETISM first observed 1778

Here is a diagram of the harvester circuit, ignore voltage and current, just envision field line direction in slow motion. I know I left voltage references.

By controlling the resistance of the secondary winding, I can control every field line intensity in the circuit. With the capacitor, there are 3 main field lines.

The closest thing to this is a magnetic amplifier, as early as 1885

How does a magnetic field line act and react to it's surroundings?

I keep trying to get one point across, electromagnetism is, magnetic field line ---current---voltage, two phenomenon with one field line.

The secondary winding in this circuit, with no resistance, has the exact magnetic field and current as the primary winding, voltage only becomes present

within the winding when resistance is present across it's leads.

It's all about field line interactions.

 

[swansont]

41 minutes ago, Bcook said:

Magnetic field lines are imaginary lines that represent the direction and strength of magnetic force at any given point in space

No, they are not. They tell you the strength and direction of the magnetic field. Not the magnetic force 

47 minutes ago, Bcook said:

Everyone has an opinion and yet no one has an answer, that's fine.

I don’t see where you asked a question 

[Bcook]

Sorry, everyone seems to talk like they understand what is going on, it was just a statement

37 minutes ago, swansont said:

No, they are not. They tell you the strength and direction of the magnetic field. Not the magnetic force

You are arguing with science, I just did copy / paste

 

22 hours ago, studiot said:

I think the website demonstrator would do well to show a better understanding of transformer action. This is widely misunderstood in the difference between the activity in the primary and secondary.

 

Final point, the explanation of the circular magnetic field concerns to Direct Current, but transformers don't work at DC. The supply is actually alternating and so the magnetic field will be reversing at line frequency, which is why the little button magnet was jumping around in one of the videos.

I just wonder where you heard me talking about a transformer that I am dealing with? I did mention transformer by comparison.

If I analyze your statement, it sounds like you are saying AC does not have a circular magnetic field?

Above I said "envision as slow motion"  meaning one field line at a time regardless of direction.

The jumping button magnetic is indeed because of AC, please explain why the changing fields no longer interact with the surrounding iron.

22 hours ago, studiot said:

I did was the videos and other stuff on the website you linked to, although it is a requirement of this forum that I should not need to.

I didn't see anything unexpected on the demos, though the explanations were somewhat hazy.

One thing that was not clear to me was your relationship to that website ??

Is it your site or are you a third party asking for our opinion on the material presented there ?

It is my website, as far as how professional it looks, I can only do what I have resources for.

What parts of or is it all parts that you don't see anything unexpected? If you expect to see the data that I show, then I guess you have more

understanding then any computer simulation.
  

Maybe you would have better luck simulating that circuit, if so I would love to see the data. 

As far as the explanations being hazy, if you can't envision what the field lines are doing when the circuit is active, while disregarding voltage and current,

I can understand why it would be hazy.

Here is another demo that is focused just on field lines, voltage in this setup is completely disregarded.

  Field line demo

Thanks for the replies

[studiot]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

I don’t see where you asked a question 

Perhaps that is why no one managed to answer it. It was so well disguised.

 

3 hours ago, Bcook said:

Here is a diagram of the harvester circuit, ignore voltage and current, just envision field line direction in slow motion. I know I left voltage references.

Thank you for posting this. It appears a perferctly normal circuit that can be analysed by the normal processes of electrical engineering. In fact your video short circuiting the transformer is a standard method of measuring one of the important circuit parameters.

However it does not help to use incorrect terminology thus

3 hours ago, Bcook said:

By controlling the resistance of the secondary winding, I can control every field line intensity in the circuit

Nonsense.

The field intensity is controlled by the magnetic properties of the various parts of the circuit and the current flowing. Resistance is not a magnetic property.

 

If you have a question please ask it more clearly.

[Mordred]

4 hours ago, Bcook said:

Ok, Everyone has an opinion and yet no one has an answer, that's fine.

If you spent all the time you felt you needed to conduct testing, as you would prefer, to whatever extent, you still may not understand.

This is not being negative to anyone, let me say that again and no disrespect for anyone's views or opinions.

I was not going to say anything but, On another forum I spent about 5 months corresponding with someone as he tried to understand what I am doing.

When he could not computer simulate circuits or understand the way I see things, he did like everyone else I have ever spent time with, quite.    

The reason you can't see it, is you don't look at what I look at,

My circuits are very simple by design, meaning very little to follow as far as field lines.

Magnetic field lines are imaginary lines that represent the direction and strength of magnetic force at any given point in space

An electromagnetic field is a magnetic field, if it's a magnetic field it can be viewed as field lines for reference.

For me it starts at the source, DIAMAGNETISM first observed 1778

Here is a diagram of the harvester circuit, ignore voltage and current, just envision field line direction in slow motion. I know I left voltage references.

By controlling the resistance of the secondary winding, I can control every field line intensity in the circuit. With the capacitor, there are 3 main field lines.

The closest thing to this is a magnetic amplifier, as early as 1885

How does a magnetic field line act and react to it's surroundings?

I keep trying to get one point across, electromagnetism is, magnetic field line ---current---voltage, two phenomenon with one field line.

The secondary winding in this circuit, with no resistance, has the exact magnetic field and current as the primary winding, voltage only becomes present

within the winding when resistance is present across it's leads.

It's all about field line interactions.

 

 

As Studiot mentioned there is no need to consider magnetic field lines in the above except as it applies to the transformer primary and secondary windings. Its  really basic induction if you supply the motor details, transformer winding ratio between primary and secondary windings and capacitance value it should be trivial to run calculations on this circuit. The capacitor is providing the phase shift via capacitance reactance.

I would be curious to see the 3 phasor diagram this circuit produces It would not surprise me to find your introducing phase imbalances that will eventually ruin your motor windings. A quick way to confirm that is to take voltage readings between (T1 T2).( T1 to T3), (T2,T3) they should all have identical voltage if not then your damaging you motor.

(PS its also likely your back-feeding harmonics back into the power grid) which your electric supply company may take issue with)

edit forgot to add Induction can also cause capacitance reactance. For example an inductor is impossible to burn into an IC chip but one can replace an inductor with a capacitor which is easily burned into an IC.

Edited August 3 by Mordred

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Bcook said:

You are arguing with science, I just did copy / paste

Plagiarism is not permitted here. It’s generally discouraged everywhere.

From where did you copy/paste? Only part of the statement is in unmatched type.