Was Einstein a Christian?

[Trurl]

Was Einstein a Christian?

 

I don’t mean if he claimed to be one.

 

But did his discoveries and how those discoveries manipulate the physical world lead him to believe what other ways the physical world could be made?

[MigL]

What does it matter ?
His beliefs had nothing to do with science, which is evidence based for any good scientist.

Are you hoping that if a 'smart' man can hold those beliefs, it is a validation of your belief system ?

[exchemist]

43 minutes ago, Trurl said:

Was Einstein a Christian?

 

I don’t mean if he claimed to be one.

 

But did his discoveries and how those discoveries manipulate the physical world lead him to believe what other ways the physical world could be made?

No. Obviously his background was Jewish, but he was at most a sort of Deist. He seemed to take a similar view to Spinoza (also a Jew, incidentally) that the order in the cosmos (the "laws of nature", if you like) IS what we are referring to when we speak of "God". At any rate, he did not believe in the personal God of the Judaeo-Christian tradition, that interacts with humanity. 

I don't follow your third sentence. Why would consideration of what other ways the world could be made have implications for religious belief?

[Trurl]

I am not concerned whether a smart man can believe. Of course they can. But there are accounts of Einstein believing in God. There is debate on what sort of God. As exchemist said probably not a personal God. But I have read both views.

I was wondering your take. Einstein was not only a great scientist but an awesome person. I was just thinking that his heart was bad and he’s aging does he consider a personal God? A chaplain at the hospital maybe?

He was discovering the world’s mysteries. Can these mysteries mean the physical world can be manipulated?

And the Holocaust and bomb bring reflection.

If Einstein didn’t believe in a personal God why didn’t he know his life was a miracle: he was a Jew that survived his own country trying to kill him.

Smart doesn’t mean anything. But he was reflective in his writings. He had to feel his life was blessed.

[zapatos]

2 minutes ago, Trurl said:

I was just thinking that his heart was bad and he’s aging does he consider a personal God? A chaplain at the hospital maybe?

I don't understand your question. Are you asking if Einstein considers the chaplain to be a god, or that Einstein would consider being a chaplain?

5 minutes ago, Trurl said:

He was discovering the world’s mysteries. Can these mysteries mean the physical world can be manipulated?

 

We didn't need Einstein to recognize that the physical world can be manipulated. A child recognizes the physical world can be manipulated. 

6 minutes ago, Trurl said:

If Einstein didn’t believe in a personal God why didn’t he know his life was a miracle:

His life wasn't a miracle. 

7 minutes ago, Trurl said:

He had to feel his life was blessed.

Is there some kind of rule that states this?

[Phi for All]

16 hours ago, Trurl said:

Smart doesn’t mean anything. But he was reflective in his writings. He had to feel his life was blessed.

Smart means a LOT when it comes to personal beliefs. It seems like the ones most closely held are the most fragile and sacred, unable to withstand the light of scrutiny. Those types of beliefs don't seem smart at all to me. They wither when challenged, and are only fed by unquestioning faith. 

I think Einstein was too smart to believe in miracles. The cosmos itself is so incredibly awe-inspiring that just being part of it naturally is enough, and we don't need supernatural entities to explain anything.

 

[exchemist]

17 hours ago, Trurl said:

I am not concerned whether a smart man can believe. Of course they can. But there are accounts of Einstein believing in God. There is debate on what sort of God. As exchemist said probably not a personal God. But I have read both views.

I was wondering your take. Einstein was not only a great scientist but an awesome person. I was just thinking that his heart was bad and he’s aging does he consider a personal God? A chaplain at the hospital maybe?

He was discovering the world’s mysteries. Can these mysteries mean the physical world can be manipulated?

And the Holocaust and bomb bring reflection.

If Einstein didn’t believe in a personal God why didn’t he know his life was a miracle: he was a Jew that survived his own country trying to kill him.

Smart doesn’t mean anything. But he was reflective in his writings. He had to feel his life was blessed.

What do you mean by  “know his life was a miracle.” ? This is begging the question, surely?

It would have to be a miracle in the first place, in order for it to be something he could “know”, and you have not established that. Most people wouldn’t say their own lives were a miracle, nor even the lives of the most eminent thinkers. You are expecting him to “know” something most people would say is not true, aren’t you? 

[Trurl]

Quote

I don't understand your question. Are you asking if Einstein considers the chaplain to be a god, or that Einstein would consider being a chaplain?

I mean at age 80 and a bad heart that Einstein might have been considering a personal God. I think under the same conditions an atheist would consider the same. That is where chaplains come in.

 

Quote

I think Einstein was too smart to believe in miracles. The cosmos itself is so incredibly awe-inspiring that just being part of it naturally is enough, and we don't need supernatural entities to explain anything.

What makes the cosmos so inspiring? Understanding it is one thing, but I think what makes it so inspiring is the deeper meaning.

Quote

Is there some kind of rule that states this?

Escaping death from Nazis Germany. Making ground breaking discoveries and enjoying life seems like a blessed life.

But back to Einstein as a Christian could living in the U.S. introduce him to Christian values. He wrote many essays that were more than just philosophies where he looked to improve society and his adopted American life.

So the ingredients are there. I’m saying old Einstein is a different man than young Einstein. He lived through WWII. He also wrote a lot about the Jewish people. Maybe he writing the stuff and doesn’t know it shares many Christian values. And maybe while he is in the hospital a chaplain gets him saved. Easier to understand than relativity.

[zapatos]

54 minutes ago, Trurl said:

I think under the same conditions an atheist would consider the same. That is where chaplains come in.

Chaplains are atheists with bad hearts?!?!

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Trurl said:

What makes the cosmos so inspiring? Understanding it is one thing, but I think what makes it so inspiring is the deeper meaning.

Observing what goes on in the universe isn't inspiring for everyone, I get it. With a god, you get to make it up, so it can be as deeply meaningful as you want. Very deep, very meaningful. Infinitely so, if you choose.

[exchemist]

4 hours ago, Trurl said:

I mean at age 80 and a bad heart that Einstein might have been considering a personal God. I think under the same conditions an atheist would consider the same. That is where chaplains come in.

 

What makes the cosmos so inspiring? Understanding it is one thing, but I think what makes it so inspiring is the deeper meaning.

Escaping death from Nazis Germany. Making ground breaking discoveries and enjoying life seems like a blessed life.

But back to Einstein as a Christian could living in the U.S. introduce him to Christian values. He wrote many essays that were more than just philosophies where he looked to improve society and his adopted American life.

So the ingredients are there. I’m saying old Einstein is a different man than young Einstein. He lived through WWII. He also wrote a lot about the Jewish people. Maybe he writing the stuff and doesn’t know it shares many Christian values. And maybe while he is in the hospital a chaplain gets him saved. Easier to understand than relativity.

What an extraordinarily narrow-minded and ill-informed post. Do you not realise Einstein lived his whole life in Christian countries? What’s so special about the USA in that respect? And you think “Christian values “ are superior to Jewish values, when some of the most enlightened thinkers have been Jewish? 
 

As for being “saved”, do you really imagine Jews and Deists go to Hell? Doesn’t that strike you as a bit ridiculous? Einstein was far too intelligent to have believed anything so absurd.
 

Here, by the way, is a brief account of Einstein’s final days: https://press.princeton.edu/ideas/the-final-days-of-albert-einstein

It is clear from this there was no deathbed “conversion”. 

Edited August 12 by exchemist

[Peterkin]

On 8/10/2024 at 6:10 PM, Trurl said:

But there are accounts of Einstein believing in God.

There are quotes wherein Einstein refers to God. That's not at all the same thing. I don't believe in any gods and yet quite often exclaim "Oh my god!" when something surprises me, or say "Dammit!" when I drop the cutlery, or "Jesus Christ!" when confronted with a dramatic instance of human stupidity. 

That's not faith, that's cultural reflex. The words are so deeply and generally embedded in the vernacular. 'God' is a kind of ubiquitous, handy metaphor we can pluck out of the air at any minute. If we all really, truly believed that we're taking his name in vain, wouldn't we be afraid to use it so much? 

11 hours ago, Trurl said:

But back to Einstein as a Christian could living in the U.S. introduce him to Christian values.

Which are based on a Jewish book, about a Jewish deity - who was not especially likeable, truth be told. In Europe, as in North America, "Christian values" (generally espoused by people who did not live according to the advice Christ had given them) were inescapable - especially if you went around telling people facts about the universe.   

 

11 hours ago, Trurl said:

I mean at age 80 and a bad heart that Einstein might have been considering a personal God. I think under the same conditions an atheist would consider the same. That is where chaplains come in.

I was in hospital last February. The chaplain came to see me. She was very nice and laughed at all my jokes. My world-view didn't change one iota. 

Why do you need some dead smart guy in your tent? Isn't your own faith enough to support it?

[dimreepr]

On 8/10/2024 at 9:06 PM, Trurl said:

Was Einstein a Christian?

 

I don’t mean if he claimed to be one.

 

But did his discoveries and how those discoveries manipulate the physical world lead him to believe what other ways the physical world could be made?

He's not here to ask but, I think, more importantly his answers to the question wasn't to a confidante, and so were filled with political niceties/necessities.

IOW, Was Einstein a Christian? is a question between him and his god...

[TheVat]

"If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism."

- Albert Einstein

He liked it because it was the most empirical of spiritual paths and does not require dogmatic beliefs.  

[dimreepr]

23 hours ago, TheVat said:

"If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism."

- Albert Einstein

He liked it because it was the most empirical of spiritual paths and does not require dogmatic beliefs.  

Are you sure about that?

Modern is just a re-examination of dogmatic beliefs, Christianity doesn't need a god to work; in the right context...

 

[Eise]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:39 AM, Trurl said:

Quote

Is there some kind of rule that states this?

Escaping death from Nazis Germany. Making ground breaking discoveries and enjoying life seems like a blessed life.

But back to Einstein as a Christian could living in the U.S. introduce him to Christian values. He wrote many essays that were more than just philosophies where he looked to improve society and his adopted American life.

So the ingredients are there. I’m saying old Einstein is a different man than young Einstein. He lived through WWII. He also wrote a lot about the Jewish people. Maybe he writing the stuff and doesn’t know it shares many Christian values. And maybe while he is in the hospital a chaplain gets him saved. Easier to understand than relativity.

Why all this speculation? There are enough articles from Einstein himself and several of his (serious) biographers to find out yourself. So either do that, or take my word for it (below), but stop speculating.

Einstein used 'God' either as a playful metaphor ("God doesn't play dice" (well, he calls it 'The Old One'), or as the impersonal, Spinozian God. The latter has nothing to do with the Judean-Christian God. He explicitly has said that he does not believe in some personal God, who interferes with the universe, or even stronger cares about peoples (Jewish or Christian) or even stronger, about individuals.

[Trurl]

You misunderstand my words. I am saying that there is a possibility that Einstein could have believed in a personal God. It is debatable. The fact is we do not know. So the only way to understand Einstein is what he wrote. I chose to have him saved by the chaplain because religion becomes important at the end of life.

 

I know there are many religions. And I know that everyone does not agree on that subject. But when I read Einstein his writings are not only science but spiritual.

 

Many people use to write Einstein. This included a Jewish Army chaplain who lost his son. This same chaplain had just been deployed to the concentration camps and saw many horrors. Einstein’s reply is left to interpretation.

 

It has been several years since I have read Einstein’s reply but it is worth discussing. But like any letter is open to interpretation.

 

I also believe that Einstein had more to do with the manhattan project. I sill haven’t seen Oppenheimer. But to put the discussion this way: any scientist who had anything to do with that project will seek out a chaplain at some point in their lifetime.

[joigus]

17 minutes ago, Trurl said:

It is debatable.

Yeah, let's debate it.

Quote

In a 1947 letter he stated that,

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously." In a letter to Beatrice Frohlich on 17 December 1952, Einstein stated, "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve."

 Calaprice, Alice (2000). The Expanded Quotable Einstein. Princeton: Princeton University Press, p. 217. Einstein Archives 59-797.

End of debate.

(my emphasis in bold-face)

On 8/14/2024 at 5:35 PM, Eise said:

Einstein used 'God' either as a playful metaphor ("God doesn't play dice" (well, he calls it 'The Old One'), or as the impersonal, Spinozian God.

Exactly. Hawking famously played the same game.

[zapatos]

On 8/10/2024 at 5:10 PM, Trurl said:

But there are accounts of Einstein believing in God. There is debate on what sort of God. As exchemist said probably not a personal God. But I have read both views.

Can you provide an example of a view you read that stated Einstein had a personal God? That might help move the discussion along.

[Eise]

12 hours ago, Trurl said:

It is debatable.

Only based on primary sources, not on some general speculations on 'no atheists in foxholes'.

So here it is:

Quote

A human being is part of a whole, called by us “Universe”, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest — a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. The striving to free oneself from this delusion is the one issue of true religion. Not to nourish it but to try to overcome it is the way to reach the attainable measure of peace of mind.

Here the whole letter:

 

So was Einstein religious? In a sense. The only thing in my opinion, is that the word 'spiritual' would better describe Einstein's position. At least most religions have some kind of 'divine metaphysics', to none of which Einstein subscribes. 'Spirituality' is not dependent on any kind of metaphysics. It is about finding a way to live as an individual in a much wider cosmos, be it divine or 'godless'.

12 hours ago, Trurl said:

Many people use to write Einstein. This included a Jewish Army chaplain who lost his son. This same chaplain had just been deployed to the concentration camps and saw many horrors. Einstein’s reply is left to interpretation.

It has been several years since I have read Einstein’s reply but it is worth discussing. But like any letter is open to interpretation.

I wonder why you didn't lookup it yourself. Aren't you interested in improving the quality of the debate?

12 hours ago, Trurl said:

I also believe that Einstein had more to do with the manhattan project.

Based on what? You are speculating again. Einstein, as a foreigner with German background, and known pacifist, had no access to any secret projects of the military. 

12 hours ago, Trurl said:

I sill haven’t seen Oppenheimer.

The movie is not totally historically adequate. It is good, however. But do not use the movie as historical reference.

12 hours ago, Trurl said:

But to put the discussion this way: any scientist who had anything to do with that project will seek out a chaplain at some point in their lifetime.

Speculating again. Sorry, your thread is totally ideological, and has nothing to do with the facts we know about Einstein. I think it should be moved to 'Speculations', because there you have to base your ideas on empirical facts.

Edited August 16 by Eise

[swansont]

Seems to me that this thread is based on some very shaky ground. Believing in a supreme being or being religious does not make one a Christian, and there have been statements that strongly imply that this is being asserted.

Christianity is one subset of religion, with one very specific requirement, and no evidence that Einstein fulfilled it.

17 hours ago, Trurl said:

I am saying that there is a possibility that Einstein could have believed in a personal God.

So go and find evidence of this

Quote

I chose to have him saved by the chaplain because religion becomes important at the end of life.

What’s important to you is not necessarily important to others. Projection is not evidence

[Trurl]

A human being is part of a whole, called by us “Universe”, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest — a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. The striving to free oneself from this delusion is the one issue of true religion. Not to nourish it but to try to overcome it is the way to reach the attainable measure of peace of mind

 

This letter is were many claim Einstein was being religious.

https://www.facebook.com/rabbinlevy/posts/einstein-wrote-this-poignant-letter-to-a-grieving-father-named-rabbi-robert-marc/398447822088085/
 

To tell the truth I don’t know Einstein’s intention. He could have said yes your son matters. Telling him we just exist and sometimes bad things happen we must accept it; is not thoughtful and not Einstein’s style.

Instead I think Einstein wrote what he believed. It is profound and takes many meanings. But IMHO Einstein is walking a fine line and saying there is a meaningful purpose to what happens in human lives without stating what he believes in such things.

But history is not perfect. Nurses don’t speak German. Somebody erases a chalkboard.

But next time you read an Einstein essay see if it implies something spiritual.

[iNow]

No

[swansont]

16 minutes ago, Trurl said:

This letter is were many claim Einstein was being religious.

religious ≠ Christian

spiritual ≠ Christian

[Trurl]

I concede that it is not provable that Einstein was a Christian. But there is indication that he believes in a personal God. And that belief in a personal God is applicable to many religions. That is Jewish or Christian or other faiths I don’t know about.

And it isn’t just me who states he believed in a personal God. He mentioned God a lot and it is debatable that he was talking about the God of Spinoza or a God of creation.

But it doesn’t mean there are not Christian themes in his writings. He has articles that talk about building a nation for the Jewish people.

You are right Einstein was too smart for that. He isn’t going to trash a good idea if it came from a Christian, Jew, or atheist.

And you are right Christianity is a religion. But Christians are supposed to be spiritual. Einstein was a just man. He is going to agree with Christians on many topics. He may not mention Jesus but they share many traits.

What bothered me about this thread is that no one thought Einstein lived a blessed life.