Was Einstein a Christian?

[Eise]

6 hours ago, Trurl said:

But there is indication that he believes in a personal God.

Like what @joigus cited?

On 8/15/2024 at 11:04 PM, joigus said:

Quote

In a 1947 letter he stated that,

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously." In a letter to Beatrice Frohlich on 17 December 1952, Einstein stated, "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve."

 Calaprice, Alice (2000). The Expanded Quotable Einstein. Princeton: Princeton University Press, p. 217. Einstein Archives 59-797.

 

6 hours ago, Trurl said:

And it isn’t just me who states he believed in a personal God.

That is true. There are a lot of Christians who misuse Einstein's metaphorical use of the word 'God' to state that Einstein believed in a personal god. Joigus' citation should already make clear, that he did not.

6 hours ago, Trurl said:

He mentioned God a lot and it is debatable that he was talking about the God of Spinoza or a God of creation.

Really?

Quote

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem – the most important of all human problems.

 

6 hours ago, Trurl said:

He is going to agree with Christians on many topics.

Such as? Citations please!

6 hours ago, Trurl said:

What bothered me about this thread is that no one thought Einstein lived a blessed life.

Why not call it a happy and fulfilled life?

Please stop projecting your ideas on Einstein's life. Find historical sources for your ideas, as Joigus and I did, or just admit you are wrong. Did you even read Joigus' and my postings? Your reaction reads as if you did not read them at all. In the first place I already cited the letter you were referring to, and in the second place Joigus' citation shows that you are already wrong about Einstein believing in a personal god.

[swansont]

7 hours ago, Trurl said:

But it doesn’t mean there are not Christian themes in his writings

Christianity does not have exclusive ownership of most of its themes. This is projection.

[zapatos]

11 hours ago, Trurl said:

What bothered me about this thread is that no one thought Einstein lived a blessed life.

This should be a learning moment for you. Not everyone thinks like you do.

[Trurl]

On 8/16/2024 at 4:50 AM, Eise said:

So was Einstein religious? In a sense. The only thing in my opinion, is that the word 'spiritual' would better describe Einstein's position. At least most religions have some kind of 'divine metaphysics', to none of which Einstein subscribes. 'Spirituality' is not dependent on any kind of metaphysics. It is about finding a way to live as an individual in a much wider cosmos, be it divine or 'godless'.

Sorry I didn’t address you. I think your interpretation of the chaplains letter is fair. But remember some still take the letter to the chaplain as a personal God. I know you said I was projecting Christianity onto Einstein, but much of it was to provide an example. I wanted to see if someone else saw an correlations with belief in a personal God.

 

As I said Einstein is a just man and many of his essay concur with Christian values. To me it would be cool if he was a believer, but I understand if he was not. Heck, with his life he could be considered a saint or prophet 😆 That is why Time made him an of the century. I called his life blessed but we will call it purpose driven well lived life. As far his writings go he never claimed to be a Christian. But his actions such as the scientific discoveries, running from prosecution, warning about nuclear bombs…he is similar to characters from the Bible.

 

Yes much of my examples were based on the man Einstein was and not him stating what he believed. I have read bio’s where the state he was a believer in God. God does not play dice. Why would he say that if his God wasn’t personal. By that I mean the God of Spinoza worries about the position of subatomic particles but not people.

 

I would like to read an article by Einstein calling his God Spinoza. I know Einstein was influenced by Spinoza, and Joigus posted a definite quote against a personal God. I don’t know the context. I guess if Einstein said it it was what he believed.

 

But I still find fault in the god of Spinoza. For what purpose is Einstein working on solving the mysteries of the universe if he doesn’t have a significant purpose in that universe? I mean the God of Spinoza created us then has no interest in his creation. Einstein created relativity. He would defend his work because he is its creator. I don’t think a personal God makes the universe less interesting.

 

Einstein used the word God in his essays. That is going to cause debate. IMHO Einstein failed to address this issue because he didn’t want to effect his work. He was too busy working on a theory of everything. No matter your view on the subject someone will always find fault. And everyone loves and respects Einstein. He knows the importance of his positions. By that I mean he may not believe in a personal God, but  he respects the beliefs of those who do.When he says a personal God is something he cannot take seriously, could it mean he concerns himself with the creation of God (Spinoza) and does not wish to invoke himself in human religious practices or rituals? Like the John Lennon song, “Imagine no religion.”

 

After all the religious prosecution of WWIi it is reasonable not to be religious. It would not mean he didn’t believe but maybe find relief in trying to discover the beauty behind how the universe works. In his situation I would not want to deal with anthropological dealings of man.

 

You guys no more about Einstein than me. And nowhere does it say Einstein prayed. Eise your interpretation of the chaplain letter is good. You reflect that Einstein was being spiritual. Christianity is a religion is a religion, but Christians are called to be spiritual and not religious. Einstein could have told the chaplain your son is in heaven just as if the Chaplain would hear from a religious figure. But Einstein is not a religious authority. Instead he decided to share something personal on what he believed. It may or not point to a personal God but what he is saying is our lives matter. There is more to what we are concerned about in our lives.

 

Personal God maybe; probably not. Einstein probably wouldn’t tell us anyway. But looking at his life, actions, and writings any thing is possible.

[exchemist]

36 minutes ago, Trurl said:

Sorry I didn’t address you. I think your interpretation of the chaplains letter is fair. But remember some still take the letter to the chaplain as a personal God. I know you said I was projecting Christianity onto Einstein, but much of it was to provide an example. I wanted to see if someone else saw an correlations with belief in a personal God.

 

As I said Einstein is a just man and many of his essay concur with Christian values. To me it would be cool if he was a believer, but I understand if he was not. Heck, with his life he could be considered a saint or prophet 😆 That is why Time made him an of the century. I called his life blessed but we will call it purpose driven well lived life. As far his writings go he never claimed to be a Christian. But his actions such as the scientific discoveries, running from prosecution, warning about nuclear bombs…he is similar to characters from the Bible.

 

Yes much of my examples were based on the man Einstein was and not him stating what he believed. I have read bio’s where the state he was a believer in God. God does not play dice. Why would he say that if his God wasn’t personal. By that I mean the God of Spinoza worries about the position of subatomic particles but not people.

 

I would like to read an article by Einstein calling his God Spinoza. I know Einstein was influenced by Spinoza, and Joigus posted a definite quote against a personal God. I don’t know the context. I guess if Einstein said it it was what he believed.

 

But I still find fault in the god of Spinoza. For what purpose is Einstein working on solving the mysteries of the universe if he doesn’t have a significant purpose in that universe? I mean the God of Spinoza created us then has no interest in his creation. Einstein created relativity. He would defend his work because he is its creator. I don’t think a personal God makes the universe less interesting.

 

Einstein used the word God in his essays. That is going to cause debate. IMHO Einstein failed to address this issue because he didn’t want to effect his work. He was too busy working on a theory of everything. No matter your view on the subject someone will always find fault. And everyone loves and respects Einstein. He knows the importance of his positions. By that I mean he may not believe in a personal God, but  he respects the beliefs of those who do.When he says a personal God is something he cannot take seriously, could it mean he concerns himself with the creation of God (Spinoza) and does not wish to invoke himself in human religious practices or rituals? Like the John Lennon song, “Imagine no religion.”

 

After all the religious prosecution of WWIi it is reasonable not to be religious. It would not mean he didn’t believe but maybe find relief in trying to discover the beauty behind how the universe works. In his situation I would not want to deal with anthropological dealings of man.

 

You guys no more about Einstein than me. And nowhere does it say Einstein prayed. Eise your interpretation of the chaplain letter is good. You reflect that Einstein was being spiritual. Christianity is a religion is a religion, but Christians are called to be spiritual and not religious. Einstein could have told the chaplain your son is in heaven just as if the Chaplain would hear from a religious figure. But Einstein is not a religious authority. Instead he decided to share something personal on what he believed. It may or not point to a personal God but what he is saying is our lives matter. There is more to what we are concerned about in our lives.

 

Personal God maybe; probably not. Einstein probably wouldn’t tell us anyway. But looking at his life, actions, and writings any thing is possible.

I think this is a bit naïve. You seem to be thinking that because Einstein's life, actions and writings were (mostly*) thoughtful and honourable, he displays Christian values. But we see around us every day evidence that many people who consider themselves good Christians support all manner of unworthy causes and actions. One example that springs to mind is the US Evangelical support for Trump, who is quite obviously a thoroughly evil man. So I can't see that the correlation between personal goodness and Christian belief is particularly strong, as rule.  

*Einstein had affairs while married.

 

[Ken Fabian]

@Trurl Some kind of clutching at straws type conversion from of fear of death by a very famous scientist would be an affirmation of your religious beliefs? As my father on his deathbed said to a nun offering to pray for him - "... If that makes YOU feel better...".

I think the belief in magical miracles like life after death has to be already deeply embedded for anyone to turn to it in adversity. I've had some really could die level bad times and it never occurred to me. And going by what a lot of Christians believe my afterlife will be like, not believing it is a great comfort. And when someone offers something as profound as eternal life just for saying I believe and saying I am sorry for all my "sins" my scam alert goes off. Although to be fair there is usually a strong expectation of generous donation involved.

[Trurl]

Quote

You seem to be thinking that because Einstein's life, actions and writings were (mostly*) thoughtful and honourable, he displays Christian values

Read into it a little more. I am not saying that just because Einstein is a just man he is a Christian. I am saying how he changed the world and his attitude towards life reads like a character out of the Bible. He warns of the dangers of nuclear fission, he runs from the Nazis, he reveals wonders of the physical world, he tries to relate the physical world to the spiritual world, and he is a role model, and he respects everyone’s beliefs and unites people.

it may not be that he excepted Jesus into his life, but given the right arguments I don’t think he would completely dismiss it.

He wasn’t perfect but there is only one perfect person in the Bible. Also he had less wives than David.

@Ken

i respect your opinion, I disagree but I don’t have all the answers. There are a lot of scammers. But you have to test your beliefs. Einstein couldn’t except quantum mechanics. He said God does not play dice. He would not except something that he didn’t have proper evidence for. But it isn’t just a matter of intellect. If no one shows you the right evidence you can’t make an informed decision. Exposure to the wrong evidence is going to make you suspicious of evidence that is the legitimate fact.

I think it was Michio Kaku who said the question to ask a physicist is, “Could God have designed the World any other way.”

[zapatos]

2 hours ago, Trurl said:

 I am saying how he changed the world and his attitude towards life reads like a character out of the Bible.

Most characters in the Bible are Jewish or infidels.

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He warns of the dangers of nuclear fission,

Which character in the Bible does this remind you of.

Quote

he runs from the Nazis,

Reminds me of David who killed Uriah in order to avoid the consequences of stealing Uriah's wife. I don't see how running away is an attribute of Christianity.

Quote

he reveals wonders of the physical world, he tries to relate the physical world to the spiritual world,

Except in the bible that is typically done through magic.

Quote

and he is a role model,

So is Bertrand Russell but that doesn't make him a Christian.

Quote

and he respects everyone’s beliefs 

You mean like when he claimed Chinese people were "filthy and obtuse"?

I think you are really stretching things trying to make Einstein sound like a Christian. You could make him sound like a proponent of nearly any organization or religion if you cherry pick enough.

[exchemist]

5 hours ago, Trurl said:

Read into it a little more. I am not saying that just because Einstein is a just man he is a Christian. I am saying how he changed the world and his attitude towards life reads like a character out of the Bible. He warns of the dangers of nuclear fission, he runs from the Nazis, he reveals wonders of the physical world, he tries to relate the physical world to the spiritual world, and he is a role model, and he respects everyone’s beliefs and unites people.

it may not be that he excepted Jesus into his life, but given the right arguments I don’t think he would completely dismiss it.

He wasn’t perfect but there is only one perfect person in the Bible. Also he had less wives than David.

@Ken

i respect your opinion, I disagree but I don’t have all the answers. There are a lot of scammers. But you have to test your beliefs. Einstein couldn’t except quantum mechanics. He said God does not play dice. He would not except something that he didn’t have proper evidence for. But it isn’t just a matter of intellect. If no one shows you the right evidence you can’t make an informed decision. Exposure to the wrong evidence is going to make you suspicious of evidence that is the legitimate fact.

I think it was Michio Kaku who said the question to ask a physicist is, “Could God have designed the World any other way.”

The Szilard letter, warning Roosevelt not about fission but specifically of the danger of Nazi Germany getting an atom bomb,  was written by Leo Szilard, in collaboration with Edward Teller and Eugene Wigner.  Szilard persuaded Einstein to sign it, correctly believing that would carry more weight with Roosevelt and those advising him. Far from warning of the dangers of nuclear fission, the letter insisted it was vital the USA should start its own bomb programme. This became the Manhattan Project, which took over from the already existing but underfunded British Tube Alloys programme.

Einstein ran from the Nazis because he was Jewish, as did so many eminent other physicists in continental Europe. Hitler stupidly created a massive brain drain of scientific talent.  So that was simply rational self-preservation on Einstein's part.

I'm not sure where you get this about him uniting people. How do you think he did that? 

[Eise]

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

But remember some still take the letter to the chaplain rabbi as a personal God.

Who is 'some'? What are their arguments? I in any case I do not 'remember' it.

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

As I said Einstein is a just man and many of his essay concur with Christian values.

Yep. As with Buddhist, Jewish and humanistic values, just to name a few.

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

But his actions such as the scientific discoveries, running from prosecution, warning about nuclear bombs…he is similar to characters from the Bible.

Yes much of my examples were based on the man Einstein was and not him stating what he believed.

So clear projection from your side.

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

I have read bio’s where the state he was a believer in God.

Name these biographies. If you can't, this is just hot air.

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

God does not play dice. Why would he say that if his God wasn’t personal.

I already said this: it is metaphorical speech. Like 'The God particle', or 'Sneaking a Look at God's Cards' (a very good book for laypersons about quantum physics).

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

By that I mean the God of Spinoza worries about the position of subatomic particles but not people.

Nope. Spinoza's concept of God is impersonal.

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

I know Einstein was influenced by Spinoza

I do not think so. He just gave Spinoza's concept of God as an example that is close to his.

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

But I still find fault in the god of Spinoza. For what purpose is Einstein working on solving the mysteries of the universe if he doesn’t have a significant purpose in that universe?

Nope:

On 8/19/2024 at 1:09 PM, Eise said:

Quote

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem – the most important of all human problems.

So no purpose in the universe.

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

It would not mean he didn’t believe but maybe find relief in trying to discover the beauty behind how the universe works.

Sure. At least it works like that for me, even if my scientific stature is a bit lower than Einstein's.

14 hours ago, Trurl said:

Christians are called to be spiritual and not religious.

Wot??? Simple followers of an organised religion (or any other world view) I would not call 'spiritual'. See Exchemist's comment:

14 hours ago, exchemist said:

But we see around us every day evidence that many people who consider themselves good Christians support all manner of unworthy causes and actions.

 

7 hours ago, Trurl said:

Einstein couldn’t except quantum mechanics. He said God does not play dice.

Yep, as a metaphor. Just to note: both Einstein and Spinoza had deterministic world views. QM does not fit well into a deterministic world view.

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

Einstein ran from the Nazis because he was Jewish, as did so many eminent other physicists in continental Europe.

Yes, but also he abhorred fascism with its glorification of everything military. Several colleagues of him in Berlin succumbed to it, which must have been unbearable for him. And then there was also 'German physics' in which he was heavily attacked, because of his relativity theories.

Edited August 21 by Eise

[exchemist]

Just now, Eise said:

Who is 'some'? What are their arguments? I in any case I do not 'remember' it.

Yep. As with Buddhist, Jewish and humanistic values, just to name a few.

So clear projection from your side.

So a very clear example of projection.

Name these biographies. If you can't, this is just hot air.

I already said this: it is metaphorical speech. Like 'The God particle', or 'Sneaking a Look at God's Cards' (a very good book for laypersons about quantum physics).

Nope. Spinoza's concept of God is impersonal.

I do not think so. He just gave Spinoza's concept of God as an example that is close to his.

Nope:

So no purpose in the universe.

Sure. At least it works like that for me, even if my scientific stature is a bit lower than Einstein's.

Wot??? Simple followers of an organised religion (or any other world view) I would not call 'spiritual'. See Exchemist's comment:

 

Yep, as a metaphor. Just to note: both Einstein and Spinoza had deterministic world views. QM does not fit into a deterministic world view.

Yes, but also he abhorred fascism with its glorification of everything military. Several colleagues of him in Berlin succumbed to it, which must have been unbearable for him. And then there was also 'German physics' in which he was heavily attacked, because of his relativity theories.

I had always thought "German Physics" was specifically antisemitic and that's why it was anti-relativity - and suspicious of QM. Wasn't Heisenberg labelled a "white Jew" at one stage, because of QM?