New Florida gun law goes into effect today (Oct 1, 2005)

[Pangloss]

As you may have heard, Florida's new "stand your ground" law goes into effect today. I was perusing the news and ran across this interesting item:

 

"Tourists travelling to Florida are being warned to avoid aggressive arguments with locals because they risk being shot." http://www.itn.co.uk/news/63537.html

 

At first it sounds like something the British government or tourist authority might do. But in fact it's an action being taken by more extreme elements of the American gun control lobby. In particular, this effort is being lead by Sarah Brady, whose husband was shot alongside President Reagan in the Hinckley assassination attempt in 1981.

 

Seems like a pretty crass move to me. But I guess they have the right to do it.

 

Regarding the larger subject of the law going into effect today, I'm curious what you all think of it. Personally I'm in favor of gun control, up to a point, but I can't stand some of the hypocrisies that come out from both sides (big surprise about me, huh?).

 

Here's some more information about the law that goes into effect today:

http://www.wcjb.com/news.asp?id=13256

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051001/NEWS/510010445

 

In a nutshell, the law allows you to fire your gun in any situation where you feel threatened. This can be outside of your home or business. Actually the only real change over existing law is that it means you can shoot even if you could have gotten away. But the threat has to be real, and you have to have a permit for the weapon or you'd be breaking a different law.

 

Thoughts?

[-Demosthenes-]

"Tourists travelling to Florida are being warned to avoid aggressive arguments with locals because they risk being shot."

"I don't agree"

 

"Well we should agree to disagree"

 

"Na, I'll just shoot ya in the sholder"

[AL]

"I agree most people are honest and careful' date=' but some are not. There are some people that are attracted to this lifestyle, and those are the ones I'm concerned about."

[/quote']

Great quote. Although I support the right to own a gun, I'm really disturbed by people who are gung-ho about owning one. I mean one hundred. I guess it's that sense of power put so eloquently by Homer Simpson: "Holding a gun makes me feel like God would feel....when He's holding a gun."

[Mokele]

I'm really disturbed by people who are gung-ho about owning one.

 

Maybe that's the answer to effecive gun control: establish a minimum length requirement. Think about it for a second and you'll see what I mean. ;-)

 

Mokele

[CPL.Luke]

the thing thatt irks me about this law is that you know that within the next two months your going to see a case where someone shoots anouther person over some drug deal or some such, and "percieved a threat" from the other person haveing a gun or some such, and getting off

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I wish I had this law in Michigan. I could have shot one of my neighbors and got away with it.

 

 

That's the problem--if someone bugs you, you can shoot them. As long as you can say "He's pissing in his back yard!* He's going to infiltrate our children with his evil! So I killed him!"

 

 

 

 

*This segment was intended to represent one person, living or dead, non-coincidentally.

[Ophiolite]

Thoughts?

This is a very good law as it will reduce the number of Americans.

[-Demosthenes-]

Great quote. Although I support the right to own a gun, I'm really disturbed by people who are gung-ho about owning one.

I'd have to agree with AL. I'm mostly pro-gun owning, but you should always be responsible for what you do, and this law sounds like it could make you less responsible for the people you shoot

 

I'm curious, what were the criteria before for a situation where you can shoot someone?

[Pangloss]

I could tell you that, but then I'd have to shoot you.

 

[Douglas]

This is a very good law as it will reduce the number of Americans.

Actually, it's intended to reduce the amount of British tourists in Florida.....

[Severian]

Well, there is no way I am going to Florida any more....

[Pangloss]

Hehe, maybe that was the intended purpose. Florida's growth rate the last few years has been off the charts.

[Severian]

I had a friend (well, actually a friend of my mother) who was shot dead in Florida while on vacation there. He hired a car and then got totally lost and ended up in white picket fence suburbia. It seemed like a nice area, so he just stopped the car to ask for directions from someone standing in their garden. Before he could speak, the guy pulled out a gun and shot him. Apparently it was a case of mistaken identity - the guy waiting in the garden was waiting for the owner of the house to come home in order to shoot him.

[Phi for All]

I can see where someone being threatened in their own home by an intruder could expect the worst. You can't be certain it's just a burglar who has only theft on his mind. Given the nature of the crime, pacifist though I am, I would more than likely jump to the conclusion that someone who has broken into my home poses a threat to the lives therein.

 

And I would like to be able to end that threat without fear of ending up in prison myself for defending my family.

 

But it sounds like this new law extends outside the home. Florida's old laws required residents of a home to make an attempt to flee from an intruder. This new law empowers them to stand their ground, but it goes too far, imo, by extending this privilege to any situation where the citizen feels threatened as long as they are in a place they have a right to be.

 

It seems to me that this bill got out of hand, starting out by protecting your rights in your home, then in your vehicle, then got extended to anywhere you just happened to be, as long as your presence is legitimate. This is going to be a police nightmare, a lawyers dream, and a social travesty. Fear-mongering is getting out of hand in the US and I'm afraid this new law in Florida is going to have everyone there packing heat and looking for their space to be threatened.

[YT2095]

"a place you have a right to be" like in your car?

 

and elderly woman comes out of the supermarket, walks to her car and hears shouting behind her, she tries Not to look, fumbles for her keys to get into "safety" quickly.

she sits and a sees hooded black guy waving and shouting at her direction, she thinks it for her and fumbles with her keys again to start the engine, she can`t see properly and throws the groceries in the back seat, but drops the keys, the black guy starts running towards her car, still shouting and waving hand gestures, he`s got a dark object in his hand too and he`s pointing it at her!

she rips her nail off trying to grab the keys from under hes seat, but while down low she remembers the old .38 in the glove box and gets it out.

as she gets up the guy is banging on her car door, "hey Lady"... *BANG* the gun goes off, he drops.

glass everywhere and her hearing is almost nil.

a crowd gathers, she gets out the car and is taken by the arm by one of the crowd, she sees the guy bleeding to death on the floor, his last words "hey lady, you dropped your purse".

 

ok, I just made this up, BUT, how possible is this!?

 

and how "Lawfull" is it now?

[Phi for All]

"a place you have a right to be" like in your car?

 

and elderly woman comes out of the supermarket' date=' walks to her car and hears shouting behind her....[/quote']Something very like this actually happened (I don't have the source) where the elderly lady fumbled with her keys trying to open the car door and the guy was shouting at her and advancing so she took out her mace spray and let him have it right in the face. Turns out it was his car, identical to hers in make/model/color, and that's why her keys wouldn't open it.

 

The law does extend the same right to use deadly force to your vehicle as to your home. Does this mean if you think someone is driving drunk and threatens your safety you can kill him?

 

My biggest worry is when people feel threatened at the mall. Crowded areas and gunfire don't mix well.

[YT2095]

gun fire in a crowded area is best left to Professionals (or not at all) and even they can get it wrong sometimes, now picture that again same in the hands of someone untrained and scared. and not thinking beyond their target or even Aiming at their target correctly!

 

it doesn`t even bear thinking about!

 

edit: here`s a scary stat for you, did you know that most cases of gun death victims are shot with their own weapon?

[j_p]

Full Employment for Criminal Defense Attorneys in Florida Act.

 

I am pretty horrified by this, and will probably not consider vacationing in Florida because of it. I am certain that most gun-owners are responsible; I am certain that very few people want to shoot other people often.

 

I am also certain that when one is frightened or angry, one does not make the most rational decisions; I am sure that there is some rational defense of this law, but it strikes me as lunacy.

[insane_alien]

i would hope that the extremely large majority of floridians are responsible enough to NOT use this law as much as possible. i would be against the slaughter of thousands of people no matter what nationality.

[H W Copeland]

For those who are interested in an analysis of this bill, he/she can find at this web site:

 

http://www.flsenate.gov/session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&Submenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&Billnum=0249&Year=2005

 

Scroll down about 3/4 of the way and pick "justice counsel".

 

It will put the issue in a little better perspective.

 

The following is the quickie route.

 

SUMMARY ANALYSIS

The bill addresses provisions relating to the justifiable use of force.

The bill creates a presumption, with certain exceptions, that a person has a reasonable fear of imminent peril

of death or great bodily harm to himself, herself, or to another person and may use deadly force in response if:

• the person against whom the force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcibly entering a

dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, and

• the person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry

or an unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

The bill provides that a person (not engaged in an unlawful activity) who is attacked in a place “where the

person has a right to be” other than a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, does not have a duty to retreat

and may meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so

to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself, herself, or to another or to prevent a forcible felony.

The bill creates a presumption that a person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s

dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or

violence.

The bill provides immunity from criminal prosecution of, and civil action against, a person who has used

justifiable force in the defense of himself, herself, or another person.

The bill takes effect October 1, 2005.

This bill does not appear to have a fiscal impact on state or local government.

[Pangloss]

Thanks H W.

 

That summary, by the way, appears to be formatted under Florida's Sunshine law, and in accordance with the most recent constitutional amendment (2003?) regarding monetary impact on the budget (see the last sentence of HW's post above). Similar sentences appeared on this past year's constitutional amendments on the ballot itself, which was kinda interesting. I like the changes, but I think the summaries on monetary impact are kind vague (and never substantiated).

 

(Just as another side note, I don't see why people can't punch up a few hyperlinks right there at the ballot box.)

[-Demosthenes-]

I can see where someone being threatened in their own home by an intruder could expect the worst. You can't be certain it's just a burglar who has only theft on his mind. Given the nature of the crime, pacifist though I am, I would more than likely jump to the conclusion that someone who has broken into my home poses a threat to the lives therein.

Of course, I might brandish a gun if an intruder was in the house, or maybe shoot at him.

 

I was thinking about places outside the house though... with old people in Florida with guns... shooting scary strangers... It was scary