Harris vs Trump;

[Peterkin]

I wonder what Canada will do with eight late-night talk show hosts and two thousand climate scientists.

[CharonY]

40 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I wonder what Canada will do with eight late-night talk show hosts and two thousand climate scientists.

I think they will be feel very much at home seeing the pickups with confederate flags...

Plus, depending on the province and how the next Federal election will go, there might be 2,000 additional jobless folks.

[Luc Turpin]

Canada's version of Trump is called Pierre Poilievre, but with no nuke button.

If an election was held today, the race would not even be close as Poilievre's Conservative Party commands a 22 points lead in poling over the next closest rival, Trudeau's Liberal; currently the party in power.

Pickups adorn Canadian flags, implying that they are the only true patriots. Most with such adornments go faster than everyone else, do not signal and cut into lineups. They behave as if they are right and the rest of us are knuckleheads. Altruism at its finest hour.

[MigL]

Canadians like the Confederate flag because it looks 'cool', most have no idea what it signifies, nor do they care.

I don't like PP either, a little too 'slick' for my taste ( would love to see Peter MacKay as PM ), but keep in mind that Canadian Conservatives are more liberal than American Democrats

[Luc Turpin]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

1-Canadians like the Confederate flag because it looks 'cool', most have no idea what it signifies, nor do they care.

2- but keep in mind that Canadian Conservatives are more liberal than American Democrats

Right on both counts

[joigus]

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

but keep in mind that Canadian Conservatives are more liberal than American Democrats

Is that why they're called 'progressive conservatives'?

What are they trying to progress in the conservation of?

I like that. I'm very eclectic. I like to discuss problems one by one. One of the things that make me nervous about many political movements is that you must accept their whole agenda. It's either that, or you're a fascist, or a Bolshevik.

Edited October 31 by joigus
minor correction+addition+correction

[Peterkin]

54 minutes ago, joigus said:

Is that why they're called 'progressive conservatives'?

The progressive conservatives were stabbed in the back 20 years ago and the Alliance dropped any pretence of a progressive element. Since then, they've been pulled farther and farther right. If they take power, they're unlikely to give it up again until they destroy public services and climate mitigation efforts - and the tolerance we've worked so long to achieve. 

The whole world is in imminent danger of spiralling into big black holes of totalitarianism.    

[dimreepr]

12 hours ago, CharonY said:

As Trump said, he sees the enemy within. Well and perhaps he is going to randomly bomb Mexico.

More likely Delaware, bc their beauty queen was a very pretty man...

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Canadians like the Confederate flag because it looks 'cool', most have no idea what it signifies, nor do they care.

Eh, I kinda doubt that this still true at this point in time. Also, the Trump flags next to F*ck Trudeau stickers is jarring.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

but keep in mind that Canadian Conservatives are more liberal than American Democrats

That is certainly not universally true. There are aspects that are certainly different from US conservatives and in some cases (e.g. firearms) it is because they cater to a radical minority.

So I would say that Canadian extreme right has less sway over the party than in their equivalent in the USA (which at this point is largely dominating the party). However, especially on the provincial level conservatives are adopting (perhaps milder) US style campaigning and have sowed vaccine skepticism (https://www.nationalobserver.com/), tend to ignore climate change and for some reasons are obsessed with trans folks.

Looking at the US election, 44% of Canadian conservatives prefer Trump over Harris (36%)  (https://www.environicsinstitute.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/read-the-report6589c781-7dd1-40c2-b3ad-372bb98c1aa1.pdf?sfvrsn=cac8947f_1). That is clearly more US Independent territory than Democrat.

Likewise, on abortion rights, Canadian conservatives are far more in favour (66%) compared to the US Republicans or even Independents (34%/58%) but still less than US Democrats (89%). Canadian Liberals are closer to US Democrats (91%). Economically, on statements of social and economic justice (i.e., government should do more to make sure racial minorities are treated fairly and government should reduce income gap between poor and rich), Canadian Conservatives (62% and 58% in favour) are close to US Independents (64%/50%) than US Democrats (93%/87%). The percentage is still higher than US Republicans (36%/34%).

Still, while Canadian conservatives as a whole are are more to the left of US Republicans, they are closer to Independents rather than Democrats. Some surveys do show further movement to the right in Canada, especially in some provinces, suggesting that the polarization in USA, which has been largely absent until ~2019 in Canada might also start to settle in.

 

[CharonY]

On 10/28/2024 at 3:05 PM, StringJunky said:

With Trump's words it's not sanewashing, it's total reconstruction and fairy tales.

You are right. I should avoid these funny little buzzwords that obscure how obscene and crazy the actual situation is.

[MigL]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

So I would say that Canadian extreme right has less sway over the party than in their equivalent in the USA (which at this point is largely dominating the party).

True.
While Canada has fringe far right, and fringe far left, in the US most of the Republican party, other than a handful, are the far right. And I'm talking about the political parties, not the orientation of the general population.
Canada's three major parties are essentially 'centrist', while America's are now center to far right.
I can similarly name many Democrats who are considerably 'right wing'.

Edited October 31 by MigL

[CharonY]

37 minutes ago, MigL said:

True.
While Canada has fringe far right, and fringe far left, in the US most of the Republican party, other than a handful, are the far right. And I'm talking about the political parties, not the orientation of the general population.
Canada's three major parties are essentially 'centrist', while America's are now center to far right.
I can similarly name many Democrats who are considerably 'right wing'.

I think there is some fracturing going on there and it looks to me that especially on the provincial level conservatives are dipping their toes into certain areas such as vaccination, gender identity and so on to see whether that gives them a boost. It looks a fair bit like the US around 10 years back but in some areas there is some radicalization going on for sure.

Unfortunately American Crazy is a potent export and I am not sure whether even on the Federal level the Canadian parties can counteract that.

[J.C.MacSwell]

9 hours ago, CharonY said:

Likewise, on abortion rights, Canadian conservatives are far more in favour (66%) compared to the US Republicans or even Independents (34%/58%) but still less than US Democrats (89%). Canadian Liberals are closer to US Democrats (91%).

 

In favour of what, exactly? Unrestricted access vs no access? I suspect both would be minority positions in Canada.

But obviously those numbers describe neither.

[Peterkin]

The right can never miss with prejudice and greed. Feed the fears and offer bribes. 

So, who needs a planet to live on tomorrow, if we can oppress a minority and make a couple of bucks today? 

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Unrestricted access vs no access? I suspect both would be minority positions in Canada.

Very likely. It's been slow, hard slog even to let expensive useless old people die when they want to.

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

In favour of what, exactly? Unrestricted access vs no access? I suspect both would be minority positions in Canada.

But obviously those numbers describe neither.

On the data sheet the question was indicated as: "Every woman who wants an abortion should be able to have one". In all groups, except US Republicans the majority (56-96%) were in favour. But as mentioned, Canadian Conservatives are more aligned with US Independents on this issue.

In another poll (Ipsos, 2020) there were also finer grained options, I have graph below. You can see that the least restrictive option is still in the majority in Canada (59%). I believe I have seen a similar poll around 2020-22 phrasing it specifically around restrictions (something like there should be no restrictions in the access to abortions) and there was a close majority for this option, too (~52%). Unfortunately I forgot which poll it was and I cannot find the data table right now, either. Though I think the phrasing of "whenever a woman wants one" is reasonably close to being unrestricted.

 

 

 

[LaurieAG]

10 hours ago, MigL said:

True.
While Canada has fringe far right, and fringe far left, in the US most of the Republican party, other than a handful, are the far right. And I'm talking about the political parties, not the orientation of the general population.
Canada's three major parties are essentially 'centrist', while America's are now center to far right.
I can similarly name many Democrats who are considerably 'right wing'.

LOL, it's a bit different down under.

Around 20 years ago in my state we had a politician who was supposed to be far right who won a safe seat (poorest area in the state) that had been left wing for over 50 years, partly because the previous left wing politician was a convicted child molester. The left wing government fixed her up big time and locked her up in jail several years later but unfortunately they had to release her after 11 weeks because the state Supreme court said the charges and conviction were contrived political BS. But the left wingers weren't satisfied with just locking up a so called right wing politician so they also locked up the states Chief Magistrate and it took 12 weeks before the state Supreme court said the charge was contrived political BS. Funny thing is the state paid the Chief Magistrate a million dollars compensation but wouldn't pay the politician a cent. This was all going on just after the states left wing lawyer Premier introduced clause 8 if the Imperial Bill of Rights 1688 into our state Constitution so that no sitting politician could be impeached outside of parliament and also introduced laws so that they couldn't be impeached inside state parliament either. This was all to protect one crooked left wing politician who, after he lost his seat, was later charged and convicted for receiving 300,000 dollars in corrupt payments. Gee did the left wing politicians really look after their corrupt mate. While he was supposed to lose his multi million dollar politician payout when he finished his sentence a later left wing government forgot to do the paperwork so he got the full multi million payout minus the $300,000 he received in corrupt payments.

We used to be 10 years behind the US but now we're 10 years ahead.

[CharonY]

Just wanted to add to my post above that the poll I was thinking about was likely this one:

Majority of Canadians are completely pro-choice (52%) but a significant segment (41%) is considered in-beween and a small minority (8%) is completely pro-life.

https://angusreid.org/abortion-canada-faith-pro-choice-pro-life/

[TheVat]

Interesting the latest page of Harris v Trump is mostly Canadians chatting about Canadian politics.  I think Canada has reason for anxiety about the exporting of MAGA craziness.  The politics of fear has seductive appeal when there is social turbulence in the world.  Society's problems aren't complex and systemic, they are just groups of bad people.  Or, as I recently learned, masturbation.  Apparently, Project 2025 includes a plan to ban all porn.

https://www.npr.org/2024/11/01/nx-s1-5168877/2024-election-pac-trump-porn-sites

 

[CharonY]

Unfortunately, the US election has global reach. As I learned, even leaving the country does not help.

[J.C.MacSwell]

13 hours ago, CharonY said:

On the data sheet the question was indicated as: "Every woman who wants an abortion should be able to have one". In all groups, except US Republicans the majority (56-96%) were in favour. But as mentioned, Canadian Conservatives are more aligned with US Independents on this issue.

In another poll (Ipsos, 2020) there were also finer grained options, I have graph below. You can see that the least restrictive option is still in the majority in Canada (59%). I believe I have seen a similar poll around 2020-22 phrasing it specifically around restrictions (something like there should be no restrictions in the access to abortions) and there was a close majority for this option, too (~52%). Unfortunately I forgot which poll it was and I cannot find the data table right now, either. Though I think the phrasing of "whenever a woman wants one" is reasonably close to being unrestricted.

 

 

 

Thanks CY. Interesting that the health, age and viability of the fetus isn't reflected in any of the categories. I think the poll would come out quite differently if it had been, and then aggregated in those 5 categories. 

Despite that poll indicating otherwise I don't think a majority of Canadians would be okay with abortion on demand for a healthy fetus just prior to potential birth in all cases, even if the demand would be considered an unlikely occurrence.

[TheVat]

14 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Despite that poll indicating otherwise I don't think a majority of Canadians would be okay with abortion on demand for a healthy fetus just prior to potential birth in all cases, even if the demand would be considered an unlikely occurrence.

Don't think abortion prior to birth has been legal anywhere - both Roe v Wade and Casey v PP (the US landmark cases) set abortion rights at pre-viability and not after.  But post-viability abortion has been the straw man used by the right-wing to demonize pro-choice policy.  

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Don't think abortion prior to birth has been legal anywhere - both Roe v Wade and Casey v PP (the US landmark cases) set abortion rights at pre-viability and not after.  But post-viability abortion has been the straw man used by the right-wing to demonize pro-choice policy.  

It is really not really reasonable. If folks carry the child to the point where they are viable, it would be extraordinary rare for them to suddenly decide to end the pregnancy.

Almost all abortions happen within the first trimester and I suspect that the majority of folks (especially women) take that into account to some degree in their answers. Asking whether you support abortion just before birth is simply not a realistic question (and quite leading), especially as the medical provider at best might just induce birth (or just wait a few days).

 

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Don't think abortion prior to birth has been legal anywhere - both Roe v Wade and Casey v PP (the US landmark cases) set abortion rights at pre-viability and not after.  But post-viability abortion has been the straw man used by the right-wing to demonize pro-choice policy.  

 

 

14 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It is really not really reasonable. If folks carry the child to the point where they are viable, it would be extraordinary rare for them to suddenly decide to end the pregnancy.

Almost all abortions happen within the first trimester and I suspect that the majority of folks (especially women) take that into account to some degree in their answers. Asking whether you support abortion just before birth is simply not a realistic question (and quite leading), especially as the medical provider at best might just induce birth (or just wait a few days).

 

 

Why then do the Democrats not make it clear that they don't support it?

That, despite the relative rarity, is foremost in what they are being accused of.

I'm surprised Trump, the way he exaggerates hasn't accused Democrats of being in favour of killing babies after they're born...oh wait...he has...

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

 

 

Why then do the Democrats not make it clear that they don't support it?

That, despite the relative rarity, is foremost in what they are being accused of.

I'm surprised Trump, the way he exaggerates hasn't accused Democrats of being in favour of killing babies after they're born...oh wait...he has...

The issue is that such distinction becomes a gish gallop of arguments. You will end up spending more time justifying your position, while the other side can heap inane claims on you. This just gives another vector of attack while ceding ground.

As case in point, Dems do have introduced bills and have said that repeatedly that they want to protect abortion rate until fetal viability. Later abortions can be restricted, provided that provisions are added (e.g. if pregnancy can endanger the mother). But based on your comment, it seems that post-birth abortions are a way more common knowledge than the details put out by Dems.

Edit: I should add, these limits are not decided by Dems, but largely follow existing court rulings, most notably Roe and there is some disagreement on when exactly viability is reached (though I think it could be determined by attending physicians).

From what I understand in Canada, there is not legal restriction on abortion. However, there are regulations, either by health authorities or professional bodies which basically implement limits.

 

 

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

43 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The issue is that such distinction becomes a gish gallop of arguments. You will end up spending more time justifying your position, while the other side can heap inane claims on you. This just gives another vector of attack while ceding ground.

As case in point, Dems do have introduced bills and have said that repeatedly that they want to protect abortion rate until fetal viability. Later abortions can be restricted, provided that provisions are added (e.g. if pregnancy can endanger the mother). But based on your comment, it seems that post-birth abortions are a way more common knowledge than the details put out by Dems.

Edit: I should add, these limits are not decided by Dems, but largely follow existing court rulings, most notably Roe and there is some disagreement on when exactly viability is reached (though I think it could be determined by attending physicians).

From what I understand in Canada, there is not legal restriction on abortion. However, there are regulations, either by health authorities or professional bodies which basically implement limits.

 

 

 

Right. One that could lead to a reasonable compromise if both sides were willing to debate it...but it seems they would just be taken advantage of if they tried.