Harris vs Trump;

[TheVat]

There is a lot of gloom over things that could go wrong in the coming years, but I will admit I fail to see how Trump can actually implement his deportation plans, at least at the level he has promised his fear-sodden voters.  It is actually incredibly difficult and expensive to find and round up people, and even more so to ship them back to nations that may well close all ports of entry and refuse to take them back.  Moving, what, 11 million people is expensive.  Putting them all in internment camps while you wait to figure out where to send them, even more expensive.  And then there are all those economically essential labor jobs that those people do, sometimes for wages that native born Americans would find unacceptable.  Point is, like most harebrained vague plans, there is a lot of handwaving and pandering but no practical way to implement it.  Not to get too dark here, but there is a reason that Hitler's regime quickly landed on a different approach than expelling their undesirables from the country.  We'd better hope our Constitution holds up better than the Weimar one did.  

@MSC, real estate is reasonable in places like Saskatchewan, but I can't recommend the winters there.  If I were thinking Canada-ward, I'd probably be looking more at British Columbia.  But you might have to buy land and start out just dragging a prefab barn onto it and putting in utilities, floors, etc.  yourself.  Or just stay here - we can definitely use a few true Scotsmen.  Just don't eat our pets, please!  

[Genady]

At least, our votes have helped one D Senator and one D Representative.

[CharonY]

16 minutes ago, TheVat said:

There is a lot of gloom over things that could go wrong in the coming years, but I will admit I fail to see how Trump can actually implement his deportation plans, at least at the level he has promised his fear-sodden voters. 

The deportation was ever a deception. It was built around the non-existing surge of criminal immigrants.

What is likely going to happen is aggressive ICE enforcement as under his previous presidency, more aggressive policing of the borders and similar "virtue signaling" efforts. But it is not a thing he really cares about beyond vague ideological aspects. There will be a number of civil rights issue by entangling law enforcement, border security, immigration and potentially the military.

16 minutes ago, TheVat said:

@MSC, real estate is reasonable in places like Saskatchewan, but I can't recommend the winters there.  If I were thinking Canada-ward, I'd probably be looking more at British Columbia.  But you might have to buy land and start out just dragging a prefab barn onto it and putting in utilities, floors, etc.  yourself.  Or just stay here - we can definitely use a few true Scotsmen.  Just don't eat our pets, please!  

Canada is currently limiting (or re-aligning) immigration. And real estate is very expensive in the more populated areas.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

The deportation was ever a deception. It was built around the non-existing surge of criminal immigrants.

What is likely going to happen is aggressive ICE enforcement as under his previous presidency, more aggressive policing of the borders and similar "virtue signaling" efforts.

As you’re suggesting, it’s likely to be less about criminal activities solely among illegal undocumented residents and probably more likely to display as the execution of mass raids and civil rights abuses against “undesirables” by a police state directed and unconstrained by the desires and whims of a small handful of folks with power. Enemies lists getting crossed off etc. 

Edited November 6 by iNow

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

Europe needs to step up, which they likely won't.  Especialy with pro-Russian right wingers waiting.  Also above I forgot to rant about sexism. We are a bunch of dum dums.

That was what we discussed a few times. I feel that appealing to moderates has not been a great strategy. And she might even lose the popular vote. The way folks perceive and feel about things has changed and what we perceive as the norm is gone.

I'm not sure after every vote is counted she will have lost the popular vote but it hardly matters.

She ran a decent campaign, Trump ran his worst and least honest so far, and this is the result.

Not sure what to think never mind say.

[MigL]

I hope the 'checks and balances' are robust enough to last the 4 years.

[CharonY]

7 minutes ago, MigL said:

I hope the 'checks and balances' are robust enough to last the 4 years.

That is unfortunately the big issue for me. The first term was built laziness and greed and things moved along even against his wishes. For example, they provided support to Puerto Rico after delays, despite he being against it (incredible that folks already seemed to have forgotten that). It was only when there was a real challenge that things fell apart really dramatically during COVID-19 (again, no idea how folks keep forgetting that).

This time around, folks around him realized that they can undermine the checks and balances to their advantage and if they are even moderately competent, they may achieve that.

[Night FM]

Honestly, all of the incendiary rhetoric against Trump himself rather than actual issues and policies likely didn't help the Democratic party in the long run.

[swansont]

39 minutes ago, Night FM said:

Honestly, all of the incendiary rhetoric against Trump himself rather than actual issues and policies likely didn't help the Democratic party in the long run.

Oh, please. Stop with the trolling.

[iNow]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusation_in_a_mirror

Accusation in a mirror (AiM) (also called mirror politics,^[1] mirror propaganda, mirror image propaganda, or a mirror argument) is a technique often used in the context of hate speech incitement, where one falsely attributes one's own motives and/or intentions to one's adversaries.^[2][3][4] It has been cited, along with dehumanization, as one of the indirect or cloaked forms of incitement to genocide, which has contributed to the commission of genocide, for example in the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide, and the Armenian genocide. By invoking collective self-defense, accusation in a mirror is used to justify genocide, similar to self-defense as a defense for individual homicide.^[4][5][6]

The Office of the UN Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide (OSAPG) defines mirror politics as a "common strategy to create divisions by fabricating events whereby a person accuses others of what he or she does or wants to do", and includes it as a factor in their Analysis Framework on Genocide, when analyzing whether a given situation poses a risk of genocide

[Night FM]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

Oh, please. Stop with the trolling.

I stand by that. My perception is that there was far too much rhetoric directed against Trump himself, such as rhetoric related to his personal life, and not enough which focused on why his actions while in office were flawed.

As an example, I've seen intelligent criticism of the border wall and how it did not live up to what most people expected, but that was lost in much of the rhetoric, such as rhetoric merely trying to associate the border wall proposal with "racism".

3 hours ago, iNow said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusation_in_a_mirror

Accusation in a mirror (AiM) (also called mirror politics,^[1] mirror propaganda, mirror image propaganda, or a mirror argument) is a technique often used in the context of hate speech incitement, where one falsely attributes one's own motives and/or intentions to one's adversaries.^[2][3][4] It has been cited, along with dehumanization, as one of the indirect or cloaked forms of incitement to genocide, which has contributed to the commission of genocide, for example in the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide, and the Armenian genocide. By invoking collective self-defense, accusation in a mirror is used to justify genocide, similar to self-defense as a defense for individual homicide.^[4][5][6]

The Office of the UN Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide (OSAPG) defines mirror politics as a "common strategy to create divisions by fabricating events whereby a person accuses others of what he or she does or wants to do", and includes it as a factor in their Analysis Framework on Genocide, when analyzing whether a given situation poses a risk of genocide

I'm assuming you're saying that Trump did the same thing. That's totally possible, but I haven't perceived the same level of incendiary rhetoric leveled against any particular Democratic candidate, especially that which involves fearmongering about fascism. I recall some extreme rhetoric against Hillary, but it was on the outlier side of things (e.x. Alex Jones). To me, it seems like half of America thinks Trump is a fascist, and that this line of rhetoric has been popular in more mainstream media outlets since 2016.

He could be a fascist. I'm not denying that fascist regimes do come into power, but I don't trust the rhetoric and I'll wait until more measurable actions happen before coming to such a conclusion.

Edited November 7 by Night FM

[toucana]

4 hours ago, Night FM said:

I stand by that. My perception is that there was far too much rhetoric directed against Trump himself, such as rhetoric related to his personal life, and not enough which focused on why his actions while in office were flawed.

As an example, I've seen intelligent criticism of the border wall and how it did not live up to what most people expected, but that was lost in much of the rhetoric, such as rhetoric merely trying to associate the border wall proposal with "racism".

I'm assuming you're saying that Trump did the same thing. That's totally possible, but I haven't perceived the same level of incendiary rhetoric leveled against any particular Democratic candidate, especially that which involves fearmongering about fascism. I recall some extreme rhetoric against Hillary, but it was on the outlier side of things (e.x. Alex Jones). To me, it seems like half of America thinks Trump is a fascist, and that this line of rhetoric has been popular in more mainstream media outlets since 2016.

He could be a fascist. I'm not denying that fascist regimes do come into power, but I don't trust the rhetoric and I'll wait until more measurable actions happen before coming to such a conclusion.

 

Were you asleep during president Trump’s first term in 2017 when he attempted to block all muslims from entering USA, and began ranting to his aides about migrants coming from ‘sh&ithole’ countries’, and demanding to know why America wasn’t prioritising the arrival of blue-eyed blond haired people from Scandinavian countries like Norway ?

Were you under a rock on another planet on January 6th 2021 when Trump incited a violent lynch mob to attack the Capitol in an attempt to hang his own VP, after Mike Pence refused to subvert the constitution and throw out the results of the 2020 presidential election ?

Did you have your fingers firmly in your ears during the recent final Trump rallies this year when he referred to Kamela Harris as a ‘b*tch’ -  or were you perhaps watching another channel when Trump’s rally at the Madison Square Garden NY  on October 27 was being broadcast - appropriately enough on the 85th anniversary of the infamous swastika bedecked  Nazi mass rally organised by the German American Bund at the same venue in 1939 ?

Did you perhaps miss seeing Trump and his allies smirking and clapping along as ‘comedians’ and other surrogates told viciously anti-semitic jokes, made racist comments about Latino-Americans, and referred to Kamala Harris as the ’antichrist’, and characterised her as a “whore “ with ‘pimp handlers’ ?

Just curious…

[swansont]

7 hours ago, Night FM said:

My perception is

Perceptions are not facts

[Luc Turpin]

I reiterate, the politics of fear won over the politics of reason in this election.

And as evidenced by many recent posts in this thread, it still has its grip on us.

The fear of Trump being elected has been replaced by the fear of what will he do in his second term!

He’s got us!

But, there must be a way out of all of his madness controlling us!

Finally, resistance to change also played a key role in the election.

And nostalgia!

Edited November 7 by Luc Turpin

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

there must be a way out of all of his madness controlling us!

For instance?

[Luc Turpin]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

For instance?

Ignoring him, if that is even possible!

Or does a psychological strategy already exists for dealing with this kind of situation, but we are unaware of its existence?

I have more questions than answers!

 

What would happen if people, proponents and opponents, got tired and stopped reacting to his constant barrage of incendiary remarks?

I am fabulating, I suppose!

[MSC]

13 hours ago, Night FM said:

Honestly, all of the incendiary rhetoric against Trump himself rather than actual issues and policies likely didn't help the Democratic party in the long run.

Trump rarely ever spoke about his policies, Democrats spoke about their policies until they were blue in the face. Enhanced child tax credits, federal legalisation of marijuana, help paying down deposits for American families and an increase in house building across the United States. 

Did anybody here, ever once see any news headline that was anything like "Harris promises X" because I didn't? I had to wake through stories to get her policy's but they were there. What the hell happened to reporting? Not once was a policy itself made a headline as far as I could see. 

I'm beginning to realize as well that I must have been blindsided by my own algorithms. It's scary that even with conscious effort to aggregate trustable sources of information the bias these things build up in you doesn't stop. I thought as well that by keeping tabs on certain alt right sources I'd at least know what they were thinking. 

Maybe Biden just shouldn't have dropped out. 

[CharonY]

2 minutes ago, MSC said:

I'm beginning to realize as well that I must have been blindsided by my own algorithms. It's scary that even with conscious effort to aggregate trustable sources of information the bias these things build up in you doesn't stop. I thought as well that by keeping tabs on certain alt right sources I'd at least know what they were thinking. 

Algorithms and lack of critical thinking have changed information processing, certainly in the young and also in the older folks. Heck, any policy that the Trump campaign put out were quickly explained to be somewhere between silly and harmful (e.g. replacing income tax with tariffs). It is clear that folks do not actually care about information anymore. Perhaps ironically we are using technology to validate our feelings (regardless how detached from reality they might be)and I am afraid that this is a trend that we are unable to reverse.

The worst thing is that I see it even (or especially) in young, educated folks, which points at an overall worse trend.

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

But, there must be a way out of all of his madness controlling us!

There was...

It's going to be a difficult time for the satirical, they have fallen on stoney ground...

[MSC]

56 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Algorithms and lack of critical thinking have changed information processing, certainly in the young and also in the older folks. Heck, any policy that the Trump campaign put out were quickly explained to be somewhere between silly and harmful (e.g. replacing income tax with tariffs). It is clear that folks do not actually care about information anymore. Perhaps ironically we are using technology to validate our feelings (regardless how detached from reality they might be)and I am afraid that this is a trend that we are unable to reverse.

The worst thing is that I see it even (or especially) in young, educated folks, which points at an overall worse trend.

I think maybe something we lack, being as inclined to study nature thoughtfully as we are, is an experiential gap where we kind of are unaware of how much of a hole that can fill within a person the impact that has on what motivates them, that would normally be occupied by escapism. They say ignorance is bliss but I think it's more accurate to say that the ignorant seek bliss. If you're smart enough to derive some satisfaction by confronting, accepting and pragmatically making use of an uncomfortable truth, you'll never understand the people who live for the bliss of believing a comfortable lie.

What this means, is that honestly the majority of the time people engage with these devices, they aren't engaging to access the wellspring of human knowledge and become informed, they are bored and trying to escape reality, playing games, listening to emotionally engaging influencers speaking simply about simple things. 

Fun. These devices are being used as toys, not tools. Then companies make tools of us through the toys. 

Edited November 7 by MSC

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MSC said:

What this means, is that honestly the majority of the time people engage with these devices, they aren't engaging to access the wellspring of human knowledge and become informed, they are bored and trying to escape reality, playing games, listening to emotionally engaging influencers speaking simply about simple things. 

The way I describe them are dopamine machines. If folks feel bored, anxious or just not entertained, their reflex is to go to the device (if they are not already on it) and basically find something that makes them feel better. It is a constant distraction and they are barely able to sit through boredom in order to get a job done. It saps a lot, if not all of the mental capacity of folks and also colors their expectation of training and learning.

The fact that many of the younger generation are simply not equipped to learn anymore (as I mentioned in another thread) is the biggest issue as that limits potential remedies.

 

Edit:

A couple of articles suggest that one big issue is that the GOP was successful because they played heavily on predominantly white identity politics, whereas Dems tried to avoid identity and tried to focus on policies.

[MSC]

5 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

What would happen if people, proponents and opponents, got tired and stopped reacting to his constant barrage of incendiary remarks?

That will be very difficult because it's hard to ignore the president of the United States and some would say dangerous to do so, no matter what that is. I do hear you though, I'm still processing everything.

[TheVat]

14 hours ago, Night FM said:

He could be a fascist. I'm not denying that fascist regimes do come into power, but I don't trust the rhetoric and I'll wait until more measurable actions happen before coming to such a conclusion.

That fellow who just knocked that woman down and ripped off her clothes while she screamed for help...he could be a rapist.  I'm not denying that rapists do come into women,  but I don't trust the rhetoric and I'll wait until more measurable actions like full penetration happen before coming to such a conclusion.

 

[Luc Turpin]

1 hour ago, MSC said:

That will be very difficult because it's hard to ignore the president of the United States and some would say dangerous to do so, no matter what that is. I do hear you though, I'm still processing everything.

Agreed! very difficult to ignore.

I am still processing everything myself.  Here are a few loose-fitting thoughts about the whole matter: First, my doubts about the outcome of this election began when polls were showing a tie between Harris and Trump while the latter was carrying so much negative baggage along with him in the campaign. The Madison Square Garden thing was a disaster for Republicans with no consequence in poling. Why was that? I could not pin it down and it bothered me. But it started dawning on me when an exit poll survey indicated that 72% of voters were dissatisfied or angry about the direction of the country and 67% called the economy bad or poor. So here are a few questions: Why were Democrats so up beat about the state of the union while the people of the union were definitely not? Were they too focussed on what Trump was saying and doing, which was a distraction; too focussed on pundits and experts while forgetting about the voters themselves? You can argue until you are blue in the face that the economy is not so poor, but that counts for nothing if voters feel differently about it. Also, why were Republicans talking about towns across the U.S. that have lost their economic base over the last 10-20-30 years and not Democrats? This negative context might help us understand why some people feel threatened by immigrants. Are they racists or just worried about their own well being? To summarize, it is as if one party was talking about the "real things" that mattered to people while the other was talking about matters important to their own party. A battle of technocrat thinkers against Joe blow from the street, and it ended up a brawl won by the latter.

A race that should not have even been close, but lost because of not listening to the people.

Edited November 7 by Luc Turpin

[sethoflagos]

7 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

I reiterate, the politics of fear won over the politics of reason in this election.

Possibly.

Or maybe post-covid inflation, a large section of society felt that they had more money in their pockets under the previous administration.