Harris vs Trump;

[Peterkin]

5 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

In 2020, it was about Trump. In 2024, Democrats tried to make it about Trump again, but the country had moved on to another prevailing backstory.

I'm pretty sure most laymen can understand tax exemptions and support for trade unions. No, they tried to make it about an improved future... and unfortunately, that vision of future included tolerance and women's autonomy.  Plus, it started too late to counteract the toxic waste already so thick on the ground. 

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I'm pretty sure most laymen can understand tax exemptions and support for trade unions. No, they tried to make it about an improved future... and unfortunately, that vision of future included tolerance and women's autonomy.  Plus, it started too late to counteract the toxic waste already so thick on the ground. 

I am not sure that most would understand- even if they understand the mechanism, they might not feel that they relate to their situation and their worries. At least not without educating folks regarding the links.

Simpler (untrue) stories resonate more with folks. For example, for many folks struggling with money there is a simple narrative that has worked almost every time:

-  You are struggling because the elites are screwing you.

- They steal your money and divert the money that is yours to [undeserving group]

-  The elites are also dissolving the fabric of our society by promoting [feminism, LGBTQ issues, anything that you don't like or are at least suspicious about]

- I will fight for you against the elites by and punish the elites and [undeserving group]. Highlight the punishing part.

Sharing and intensifying fears of folks validates them and they feel seen. It doesn't help if folks say, look, it isn't immigrants, it is weak unions. That is too abstract. A horde of brown people stealing their money, food and women? Now that is tangible.

I am sorry to say, but it seems that best target that folks can successfully cater to with minima effort is:

Quote

"...people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know ... morons." 

The only prerequisite is that you have no shame and are willing to lie. And that does not seem to be much of a burden nowadays.

[TheVat]

My question is:

How was the 2016 election free of voter fraud, the 2020 rife with voter fraud, and the 2024 election miraculously free of voter fraud?

Wait, sorry, the 2024 election was rife with fraud - a few days ago, Trump was tweeting that law enforcement should be sent to Philadelphia, Detroit and Milwaukee because election crime was happening right then! - until the wee hours of Wednesday, November 6, when it all vanished.  That's even more miraculous!  

 

Harris' problem was the classic too little too late.  We needed a primary, one where the victor would have a laser focus on pocketbook issues, a relentless counterpoint to Trumpian harebrained economics that could hold steady all through spring and summer.  As others noted, barnstorm Main Street, keep meeting with workers and let them know you feel their economic pain and very clearly state specific solutions - don't spend so much time on what an asshole your opponent is or how much you will elevate the ideals of equality and civil rights and helping the oppressed.  Those are important, but as Bill Clinton used to remind us, when it comes to a campaign, "it's the economy, stupid."  

[zapatos]

My take on the election is that it didn't matter who the Democratic candidate was, when they started, who endorsed them, the clarity of their message, etc. What mattered was that a majority of the voters wanted Trump. He was going to win no matter who or what the Democratic candidate was. Any message from the Democrat that would appeal to Trump voters would alienate Democratic voters.

Trump represents what the majority of Americans have become, or more likely, always were.

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

As others noted, barnstorm Main Street, keep meeting with workers and let them know you feel their economic pain and very clearly state specific solutions - don't spend so much time on what an asshole your opponent is or how much you will elevate the ideals of equality and civil rights and helping the oppressed.  Those are important, but as Bill Clinton used to remind us, when it comes to a campaign, "it's the economy, stupid."  

I don't think that specific solutions even presented clearly will help if it does not address what the voter think it should address. And it is not the economy as such. Most folks have no idea how the economy is. And studies have shown that the worries of folks regarding the economy can even be disconnected to their actual own economic situation. There is a reason why folks are more worried about the border than anything else, regardless of the actual impact on economy and crime.

And folks want their fears validated and addressed.

54 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Any message from the Democrat that would appeal to Trump voters would alienate Democratic voters.

And that is the issue. The Democrats actually went there and addressed border issues. But that again was not the point. If they wanted those "undecided" voters, they would had to be punitive and cruel about it. It doesn't even matter if it solves the issue, but if they saw that someone punished those undesirables, that might have been enough. But of course, that would have alienated a vast segment of Democratic voters.

It is a lose-lose situation.

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

am not sure that most would understand- even if they understand the mechanism, they might not feel that they relate to their situation and their worries. At least not without educating folks regarding the links.

I can't afford to start a business. This candidate offers to help me; that candidate wants to deport the only workers I could afford. 

I can't afford to buy a house. this candidate offers to build more houses and help with the down payment; that candidate doesn't.

We have another baby coming; I don't know how we'll cope without the wife's income. This candidate offers me a tax exemption, that one doesn't.

It ain't rocket science. The media largely ignored it and sanesplianed Trump's 'weave' in a way that sounded good to the gullible.

36 minutes ago, CharonY said:

And folks want their fears validated and addressed.

Yes. And one of those fears is losing control of their wimmin.

38 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It is a lose-lose situation.

Yup, and it will continue to be, unless and until something quite drastic happens.    

[iNow]

Anti incumbency and electorate rebellion against inflation is a global issue right now. Look at UK who’s on like their 3rd PM in 2 years. It’s not just Americans angry and looking to tear stuff down. It’s everywhere. 

Also, a VP hasn’t been elected into the POTUS slot for almost 200 years. It was Martin Van Buren the last time it happened. 

Harris did a lot right and ran a good campaign in the 107 days she had to do so. Her team also made many mistakes and didn’t communicate in ways the masses needed her to on the economy. 

People are tired of eggs being expensive, they blame Biden, and she was loyal to him and didn’t separate herself enough. She even fumbled a question on the View about “what would you have done differently,” and she replied “I can’t really think of anything.” Game. Set. Match.

Trump meanwhile said whatever people wanted to hear and reminded us all of the old joke: How do you know when a politician is lying? Their lips are moving. Nobody cared. They felt he was more authentic by being unashamedly a liar.

White uneducated women and Hispanic males broke for Trump and that alone is sufficient to explain the outcome. The toxic manosphere culture only further amplified it. 

24 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

The media largely ignored it

More to the point, people largely ignored the media. 

[MigL]

In 2020 Republicans got 73 Million votes and Democrats got 81 Million.
In 2024 ( votes are still being counted so just estimates ) Republicans got 74 Million, or almost the same as 2020, but Democrats got 69 Million.
Why did 14 Million Democrats fail to vote in this election ???

D Trump has been election campaigning for the last 4 years.
K Harris started in the middle of August, a couple of months ago.

And America would rather be run by an idiot than a competent woman.

What other reasons for the loss do you need ...

[iNow]

7 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why did 14 Million Democrats fail to vote in this election ???

Some didn’t vote. Some voted for 3rd parties. Some voted Trump. Some of Joe Biden’s voters weren’t democrats in the first place. Doesn’t matter. Just found your premise misguided. 

[TheVat]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

I don't think that specific solutions even presented clearly will help if it does not address what the voter think it should address. And it is not the economy as such. Most folks have no idea how the economy is. And studies have shown that the worries of folks regarding the economy can even be disconnected to their actual own economic situation. There is a reason why folks are more worried about the border than anything else, regardless of the actual impact on economy and crime.

It's never the economy as such.  It is that people think they have an idea of how the economy is.  Americans love playing amateur economist.  And if a candidate can link that idea to high prices and  brown invaders stealing their jobs and using up all the housing, or radical leftists locking up all that oil God gave America and leaving them shivering in the cold, then that candidate is tweaking their amygdala bigly.  Some sense the manipulation and get so fed up with politicians they opt to stay home.  Others don't and embrace whoever is putting the fear in them as a father-protector.  

The border issue is economic, in the minds of many Americans.  They link migrants with an invasion of people who will rob the country, not help grow it.  Some of my ancestors, on the Irish side, were subjected to this same toxic equation.  The demagogue never tires of reformulations of the basic equation.

Sláinte!

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

And if a candidate can link that idea to high prices and  brown invaders stealing their jobs and using up all the housing, or radical leftists locking up all that oil God gave America and leaving them shivering in the cold, then that candidate is tweaking their amygdala bigly.

I think it is the reverse, folks think that already. There is no need to link the ideas up really, just support and leverage it. And this is the only thing that Trump actually can do shamelessly.

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I can't afford to start a business. This candidate offers to help me; that candidate wants to deport the only workers I could afford. 

You can't afford to start a business because the elites are overregulating everything. I am going to fix it so that you can afford it.

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I can't afford to buy a house. this candidate offers to build more houses and help with the down payment; that candidate doesn't.

Houses are so expensive because foreigners are taken them all. I will fight them and you will be able to afford beautiful houses.

3 hours ago, Peterkin said:

We have another baby coming; I don't know how we'll cope without the wife's income. This candidate offers me a tax exemption, that one doesn't.

I will make such a great economy, the best economy where your wife can stay home and does a woman's true job. And you will be able to support them. I will protect you from the evil elites who will screw you over and the foreigners who are taking all the good jobs (if you want to appears smart you can also claim that foreigners are suppressing all your wages, but be careful with those big words).

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

White uneducated women and Hispanic males broke for Trump and that alone is sufficient to explain the outcome. The toxic manosphere culture only further amplified it. 

And what I am really afraid of is that even with college education, critical thinking skills are diminishing. Still better than no education, but the effect by be lower (or I might be wrong, and just disillusioned).

[npts2020]

16 hours ago, swansont said:

For example, I saw ads saying Harris would cut taxes for the middle class. How is that not in “layperson’s terms”?

And living in Pennsylvania, I saw more tv ads telling me Harris is going to raise my taxes. Why people believe one source over another seems to have more to do with repetition than it does substantiation. Digging into matters deep enough to separate reality from projection takes actual time and energy, something a large percentage of the voting population appears unwilling/unable to do. One example (of many I could cite), is that none of the Trump supporters I talk with about "energy independence" realize the US is producing more oil than any country in the history of the planet or that we are one of the biggest exporters of oil (#4 actually) in the world (OTOH only China imports more oil than the US but the US is still a net exporter). Also, few of them seem to give any weight to the argument that we need to stop using fossil fuels ASAP (for reasons anyone frequenting this forum already know about; climate change, finite supply, environmentally destructive to obtain, etc) rather than increasing the use of them. 

That brings me to the denizens of this forum, some of the most intelligent and grounded individuals I get to interact with, who don't seem to understand that we are not a majority (maybe not even a plurality) of Americans. There is a reason why a great (award winning) series like "Cosmos" never reaches 2,000,000 viewers but "American Idle" can get over 38,000,000 viewers on a good night. I would bet the majority of people here reading this would rather spend their time watching the former than the latter but that is just the impression I get from the short 15 years of being a member here. In general, I think we would rather talk about the state of the world or the latest scientific discovery than who is dating who or yesterday's football game. That's why we bother participating in this forum instead of spending the time watching the latest viral Tik-Tok video. Unfortunately, when I leave my closest circle of friends or this forum, unless I specifically bring up a topic, the conversations seem to be mere politeness and rarely increase my understanding of the world around me and I would expect (but could be wrong) this to be commonplace among not only our members but all people. If true, it means most of the information considered by many (if not most) individual to be "factual" comes from mass media, especially tv. Because of the problems with mass media, enumerated (not pushing for real answers, unequal treatment of candidates, etc) by others in this thread, is why I thought Trump would win (even though I still thought he would lose the popular vote). Ms. Harris sealed the deal when a dissatisfied electorate is told that she wouldn't have done anything different from the actions that caused (in the minds of many of those voters, anyway) that dissatisfaction.

[dimreepr]

20 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

Democrats did not ignore the GOP strategy; they used to wrong tools to combat it. They thought that disdain over Trump, a rosy picture of the situation and a plan not expressed in layperson’s term would be sufficient to win them the election. They underestimated the power of negative thinking and ignored the people's perception that all was not well with America. Instead of grand events preaching to the converted, Harris should have gone to meet with regular folks in rural areas, ask them how it goes, explain her plan and tell them that she is open to hearing them. I think it's called barnstorming or something to that effect. 

What could they do? 

It's like trying explain why Sisyphus is actually in heaven, to a child with a fear of rocks; people (by which I mean our culture) are taught to fear an uncertain future, Sisyphus knows exactly what he'll be doing tomorrow and he, oh so, nearly succeeded today, 'still' he thinks 'there's always tomorrow' and gets his head down for forty winks. 😉

Edited November 9 by dimreepr

[swansont]

2 hours ago, npts2020 said:

And living in Pennsylvania, I saw more tv ads telling me Harris is going to raise my taxes

I saw one like that (probably the same one) which also said crime was up (another lie) and called Biden’s economic policies “disastrous” (arguably another lie)

Propaganda works. Too many aren’t engaged enough to get the facts, or don’t think Trump will do what he’s promised to do, or don’t understand how they will be affected (e.g. the “China will pay the tariffs” nonsense)

And there are still men who will not vote for a woman

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, npts2020 said:

Why people believe one source over another seems to have more to do with repetition than it does substantiation. Digging into matters deep enough to separate reality from projection takes actual time and energy, something a large percentage of the voting population appears unwilling/unable to do.

Yes, I see this all the time. Also single-issue voters who, if it's not about their pet peeve, don't hear what they're told, and if it is, hear only whoever promises to fix their issue, whatever else they might wreck in the process.

Interesting point about about 'Cosmos'. The 1980 series with Carl Sagan was very popular. The 2014 version, even though it had cartoons and shiny special effects, didn't capture so many imaginations. There was a huge cultural and technological shift in the intervening period. Not the least of its effects was the accelerated dumbing-down of the population. This was a concerted political and economic reaction to the first three decades of the 20th century, when public education, libraries and culture had the support of governments and philanthropists. A well-informed populace is too difficult to manipulate.  

So, we're all getting burned, drowned or blown away.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Yes, I see this all the time. Also single-issue voters who, if it's not about their pet peeve, don't hear what they're told, and if it is, hear only whoever promises to fix their issue, whatever else they might wreck in the process.

Interesting point about about 'Cosmos'. The 1980 series with Carl Sagan was very popular. The 2014 version, even though it had cartoons and shiny special effects, didn't capture so many imaginations. There was a huge cultural and technological shift in the intervening period. Not the least of its effects was the accelerated dumbing-down of the population. This was a concerted political and economic reaction to the first three decades of the 20th century, when public education, libraries and culture had the support of governments and philanthropists. A well-informed populace is too difficult to manipulate.  

So, we're all getting burned, drowned or blown away.

Not everyone...

[toucana]

16 hours ago, TheVat said:

It's never the economy as such.  It is that people think they have an idea of how the economy is.  Americans love playing amateur economist.  And if a candidate can link that idea to high prices and  brown invaders stealing their jobs and using up all the housing, or radical leftists locking up all that oil God gave America and leaving them shivering in the cold, then that candidate is tweaking their amygdala bigly.  Some sense the manipulation and get so fed up with politicians they opt to stay home.  Others don't and embrace whoever is putting the fear in them as a father-protector.  

The border issue is economic, in the minds of many Americans.  They link migrants with an invasion of people who will rob the country, not help grow it.  Some of my ancestors, on the Irish side, were subjected to this same toxic equation.  The demagogue never tires of reformulations of the basic equation.

Sláinte!

MAGA supporters misunderstand how trade tariffs work so badly that many of them think tariffs are a tax paid by China. This Meidas Touch video includes a clip by YT comedian and activist Walter Masterton in which he explains to a young Trump supporter that trade tariffs are in fact a tax paid by US importers which they will then pass on to US consumers in the form of raised retail prices - which was apparently a Damascene revelation to that young entrepreneur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI_3aZxvrEk

In another clip, a US importer points out there is practically nothing you can buy on shop shelves that doesn’t contain (or rely on) raw materials and precursors imported from abroad. Everything will be affected, everything will cost more. Some of Trump’s most enthusiastic supporters are said to be Gen-Z gamers who will shortly find out that gaming consoles like their beloved PS5 or Nintendo Switches will cost up to  40% more.

Mark Cuban (of Shark Tank fame) has some sobering words for those who think that the economic consequences of trade tariffs won’t be happening for some time. In reality they are already happening -  right now ! Quite a few business employees will shortly discover that they won’t be receiving any Xmas bonuses this December, as US importers adopt defensive positions:

[swansont]

I think if democrats hadn’t overestimated the effect of Trump’s troubles — thinking he wouldn’t be a viable candidate — and underestimate the lameness of the press, they might have tried to tie things like inflation to him. They may have held back because of the thought that they could work with republican.

They need to get a LOT better at hanging blame on republicans, discard silly notions of bipartisanship, and not save republicans from any disastrous decisions they make. People will be hurt, but that’s not avoidable now, and I have no sympathy for people who voted for whatever happens (and non-voters, who sinned by omission). Ignorance, as they say, is no excuse.

[LaurieAG]

[zapatos]

16 minutes ago, LaurieAG said:

I'm unsure where Bernie is coming from. The Democrats address the issues of the working class, health care and wealth inequality much better than the Republicans do.

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

I'm unsure where Bernie is coming from. The Democrats address the issues of the working class, health care and wealth inequality much better than the Republicans do.

And especially as helping the working class form the Trump campaign was a) trust us bro, and b) we'll deport everyone taking your jobs.

[npts2020]

4 hours ago, zapatos said:

I'm unsure where Bernie is coming from. The Democrats address the issues of the working class, health care and wealth inequality much better than the Republicans do.

He is talking about current Democratic Party leadership. What have Democrats done to promote unions? AFAIK the auto workers strike during the most recent election was the first time Joe Biden ever showed up on a picket line. In addition, he supported NAFTA (even though people like Ross Perot described exactly what would happen) and the failed Trans Pacific Partnership. I am only using Biden as an example because his record is far from unique amongst Democrats. Then you have the mass media, who constantly tells voters there is only 2 choices for President regardless of their qualifications or policy positions so where are voters going when they feel like one party hasn't been helping them?

Edited November 10 by npts2020
clarification

[Alex_Krycek]

Trump is whoever you want him to be.  He's a shapeshifter, a cult of personality.

Remember MAGA dwells in an alternative facts multiverse.  

[StringJunky]

Looking at the distribution of seats, so far, in both sides of Congress there appears to be plenty of room for potential gridlock in getting policies through. The differences in numbers are, as usual, quite fine.

The drubbing in the electoral college for president doesn't translate to a free rein in Congress, does it?

Looks like more of the same historical need to get stuff passed nationally by cross-aisle negotiation. I'm sure there'll be plenty of rebels on the GOP side...as usual.

Edited November 10 by StringJunky