Is money and wealth evil?

[swansont]

1 hour ago, nec209 said:

So you saying people did not have that much money

I said nothing of the sort. I commented on terminology. I’m saying the Church does not speak out about millionaires and billionaires being sinful because there is no concept of millionaires. You’re viewing this incorrectly; in a way that obscures the actual answer.

Does the Bible comment on being rich? Yes. Does it comment on wanting wealth? Yes.

It says the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. It tells you not to covet other peoples’ belongings. That the greedy won’t get into heaven. You can’t serve both God and money.

[nec209]

7 minutes ago, swansont said:

I said nothing of the sort. I commented on terminology. I’m saying the Church does not speak out about millionaires and billionaires being sinful because there is no concept of millionaires. You’re viewing this incorrectly; in a way that obscures the actual answer.

Does the Bible comment on being rich? Yes. Does it comment on wanting wealth? Yes.

It says the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. It tells you not to covet other peoples’ belongings. That the greedy won’t get into heaven. You can’t serve both God and money.

What do you mean by no concept. Do you mean millionaires and billionaires is english word and there no translation? In that language there no word millionaires and billionaires? Or at that time there was no millionaires and billionaires on earth?

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, nec209 said:

What do you mean by no concept. Do you mean millionaires and billionaires is english word and there no translation? In that language there no word millionaires and billionaires? Or at that time there was no millionaires and billionaires on earth?

I can’t find the word iPad in the Bible for the same reason you can’t find the word billionaire in the Bible. 

Does this comparison help you understand?

[nec209]

12 minutes ago, iNow said:

I can’t find the word iPad in the Bible for the same reason you can’t find the word billionaire in the Bible. 

Does this comparison help you understand?

So in the Bible there is no reference to the amount of money all they say in the Bible is wealth and money? With a sorta of fuzzy construct how to read the Bible and make sense of it.

But this bring up a big question may be at that time there was not many millionaires and billionaires on earth like today and that why the Bible does mot have the word millionaires or billionaires?

 

Edited August 17 by nec209

[iNow]

I can explain it for you, but I can’t understand it for you. 

Cleopatra was one among many rulers who were exceedingly wealthy before the Bible was even written. 

The better question is why give a shit what the Bible says? Why not take your cues from Harry Potter?

[nec209]

23 minutes ago, iNow said:

I can explain it for you, but I can’t understand it for you. 

Cleopatra was one among many rulers who were exceedingly wealthy before the Bible was even written. 

The better question is why give a shit what the Bible says? Why not take your cues from Harry Potter?

There is reason iPad or nintendo is not in the Bible because that did not exist at the time.

What I’m trying find out why the word million or billion is not in Bible because.

1  at the time no one had that amount of money?

2 very little people had that amount of money so they did not use that word in the Bible?

3 Inflation is very high today so at time some one having 1,000 would be million today and some one having 50,000 would be billion today.

 

Edited August 17 by nec209

[iNow]

Yeah. Never mind. 

[MigL]

@nec209
You are basing your arguments on religious texts ( the Bible ) and doctrine, which we don't do here.
What we do is discuss the scientific aspects of religions.

If you wish to discuss any particular religion's concepts of 'good; and 'evil' as well as other moral aspects, I might suggest a religious forum would be more suitable.

[nec209]

48 minutes ago, MigL said:

@nec209
You are basing your arguments on religious texts ( the Bible ) and doctrine, which we don't do here.
What we do is discuss the scientific aspects of religions.

If you wish to discuss any particular religion's concepts of 'good; and 'evil' as well as other moral aspects, I might suggest a religious forum would be more suitable.

So member posted text here saying money and wealth is not sin and other member was showing me text saying rich person harder to get in haven.

I said this does not make sense one part is conservative and other part is liberal the reply was.

Which is why you can’t use the Bible as a reliable reference. It’s an anthology where different authors give conflicting instructions. 

Okay I get it the Bible is confusing and not scientific because it is confusing one text conservative and other text liberal.

So the Bible could be both conservative and liberal it up to reader to pick part that for their political views. That the problem with the Bible.

Sorry I was trying to find the position of God, Jesus, Bible and church from political science point of view.

Has lot of people in the far left people who are not christians view slavery, monarchy, rulers, homeless, poor, poverty, rich, millionaires, billionaires, class hierarchy, money and wealth as evil and sinful. And if they subscribe to God a non christians God that hates those things.

But seems the church and christians are more conservative and that why I was trying find from political science point of view the political stand on this.

Yes I understand some priest and popes were left and others far right. But from reading it seems the church is not really concern about this and more conservative.

Witch means God and Jesus is more conservative as that what the church is teaching.

[swansont]

10 hours ago, nec209 said:

What do you mean by no concept. Do you mean millionaires and billionaires is english word and there no translation? In that language there no word millionaires and billionaires? Or at that time there was no millionaires and billionaires on earth?

What’s the biggest number you can get to in Roman numerals?

[MigL]

God, and Jesus, are not 'conservative' or 'liberal'.
Neither is the bible.

You cannot have a scientific discussion about Religion or the Bible; science is based on evidence, Religion is based on 'faith', no evidence needed.
Neither can you discuss Religion in terms of Politics, although Religion often gets politicized, with political movements claiming God is on their side, in order to justify oppression, wars, etc.

This thread should have been shut down long ago, as one side is arguing with evidence, the other with faith ...
( I would be even more strict than Swansont as a moderator 😄 )

[nec209]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

God, and Jesus, are not 'conservative' or 'liberal'.
Neither is the bible.

You cannot have a scientific discussion about Religion or the Bible; science is based on evidence, Religion is based on 'faith', no evidence needed.
Neither can you discuss Religion in terms of Politics, although Religion often gets politicized, with political movements claiming God is on their side, in order to justify oppression, wars, etc.

This thread should have been shut down long ago, as one side is arguing with evidence, the other with faith ...
( I would be even more strict than Swansont as a moderator 😄 )

But I see people discussing this all the time on political forums where some people say they are left and others say they are more right. 

On some political forums they say the church is very conservative well some far left people on far left forums say some priests where very left but the church was very far right.

I think you looking way and I say way too much into Bible what it is saying and not what the church is teaching.

I read on other forums the Old Testament is very far right. But the new testament lighter and more left.

I understand the church studies the Bible taking both conflicting views and come up with their own view what to teach.

Also does not say why lot of christians in the US are very far right. And lot of republicans party in the Deep South and Midwest are very religions but are very far right on economics.

I hear this all the time from republicans a conservative in the US that poor people and homeless people are too lazy to work and get job and should not get any money. And yet lot of christians are conservative and vote that way.

 

Edited August 17 by nec209

[KJW]

2 hours ago, nec209 said:

Also does not say why lot of christians in the US are very far right.

As I see it, the left tends to be atheistic or at least secular in attitude. Also, leftist liberalism tends to be viewed as decadent and against the word of God by Christians. Furthermore, communist regimes tend to ban religions, regarding them as the "opium of the people".
 
 

[MigL]

8 hours ago, nec209 said:

Also does not say why lot of christians in the US are very far right.

It is not a causation but a correlation.
The same uneducated, southern, 'white trash', rednecks who are easily taken in by D Trump/Republican lies and disinformation, are also easy prey for organized Religion. 

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, KJW said:

As I see it, the left tends to be atheistic or at least secular in attitude. Also, leftist liberalism tends to be viewed as decadent and against the word of God by Christians. Furthermore, communist regimes tend to ban religions, regarding them as the "opium of the people".
 

Indeed, the question has nothing to do with god; so why is it still in the wrong forum?

[swansont]

23 hours ago, KJW said:

As I see it, the left tends to be atheistic or at least secular in attitude. Also, leftist liberalism tends to be viewed as decadent and against the word of God by Christians.

And yet in the US, the policies of the left arguably align better with the tenets of Christianity. Helping the weak, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, welcoming to immigrants, as opposed to the money-grubbing and fear-mongering policies of the right.

[nec209]

23 hours ago, KJW said:

As I see it, the left tends to be atheistic or at least secular in attitude. Also, leftist liberalism tends to be viewed as decadent and against the word of God by Christians. Furthermore, communist regimes tend to ban religions, regarding them as the "opium of the people".
 
 

 

Here is a discussion with Jesus about wealth and money. Again the text is very muddy and not clear but seems Jesus was more concern about greed than rich people. If you where rich but not greedy with money and had faith with God was okay in God eye.

The Bible and Jesus is not clear giving both liberal and conservative views. Looking at the christians forums they don’t seem to be concern about being rich. When question is ask is it sin to be rich.

 

As you can see the discussion with Jesus was very muddy and not clear. 

 

Riches have nothing directly to do with entrance into the kingdom of heaven, but the love of wealth does. [/B]The spiritual loyalties of the kingdom are incompatible with servility to materialistic mammon. Man may not share his supreme loyalty to a spiritual ideal with a material devotion.

163:2.11 (1803.2)Jesus never taught that it was wrong to have wealth. He required only the twelve and the seventy to dedicate all of their worldly possessions to the common cause. Even then, he provided for the profitable liquidation of their property, as in the case of the Apostle Matthew. Jesus many times advised his well-to-do disciples as he taught the rich man of Rome. The Master regarded the wise investment of excess earnings as a legitimate form of insurance against future and unavoidable adversity. 

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-163-ordination-seventy-magadan

5. Counseling the Rich Man
132:5.1 (1462.2)A certain rich man, a Roman citizen and a Stoic, became greatly interested in Jesus’ teaching, having been introduced by Angamon. After many intimate conferences this wealthy citizen asked Jesus what he would do with wealth if he had it, and Jesus answered him: “I would bestow material wealth for the enhancement of material life, even as I would minister knowledge, wisdom, and spiritual service for the enrichment of the intellectual life, the ennoblement of the social life, and the advancement of the spiritual life. I would administer material wealth as a wise and effective trustee of the resources of one generation for the benefit and ennoblement of the next and succeeding generations.”

132:5.2 (1462.3)But the rich man was not fully satisfied with Jesus’ answer. He made bold to ask again: “But what do you think a man in my position should do with his wealth? Should I keep it, or should I give it away?” And when Jesus perceived that he really desired to know more of the truth about his loyalty to God and his duty to men, he further answered: “My good friend, I discern that you are a sincere seeker after wisdom and an honest lover of truth; therefore am I minded to lay before you my view of the solution of your problems having to do with the responsibilities of wealth. I do this because you have asked for my counsel, and in giving you this advice, I am not concerned with the wealth of any other rich man; I am offering advice only to you and for your personal guidance. If you honestly desire to regard your wealth as a trust, if you really wish to become a wise and efficient steward of your accumulated wealth, then would I counsel you to make the following analysis of the sources of your riches: Ask yourself, and do your best to find the honest answer, whence came this wealth? And as a help in the study of the sources of your great fortune, I would suggest that you bear in mind the following ten different methods of amassing material wealth:"Read On"
https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-132-sojourn-rome

https://truthbook.com/jesus/matadormus-the-rich-young-man/
 

 

 

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, the question has nothing to do with god; so why is it still in the wrong forum?

Looking at the text it seem God was more concern that people help the poor and needy than rich people. Has God is okay that some people are really rich and wealthy. But wants people to turn to God and help the poor and needy.

This probably why the Church stands on millionaires and billionaires in the world is not sinful.

[swansont]

All of your links lead back to SFN

In any event, this is cherry-picking. I can come up with lots of Bible verses that do not say anything about wealth. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

The Urantia book was written in the last century. Is it Christian canon? You talk of the church - what church uses it?

How does one become wealthy if there is no desire to become so?

[nec209]

18 minutes ago, swansont said:

All of your links lead back to SFN

In any event, this is cherry-picking. I can come up with lots of Bible verses that do not say anything about wealth. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

The Urantia book was written in the last century. Is it Christian canon? You talk of the church - what church uses it?

How does one become wealthy if there is no desire to become so?

That is odd because when I read link above I can see the URL going to other website but when I click on it well it takes me back here.

I thought you wanted me to find Bible verses on wealth? Has that is what we are talking about money and wealth?

[KJW]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

And yet in the US, the policies of the left arguably align better with the tenets of Christianity.

I don't agree. For example, it was a conservative Supreme Court that recently overturned Roe v. Wade.

 

 

3 hours ago, swansont said:

Helping the weak, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, welcoming to immigrants, as opposed to the money-grubbing and fear-mongering policies of the right.

Yes, there is that. But what it means is that Christianity doesn't align itself properly along left/right political lines. For one thing, there is this whole "obedience to God" aspect of Christianity that does not sit well with the left. For example, the members of science forums tend to be leftist, but science forums are rather unfriendly places for anyone promoting Christianity.
 

 

[nec209]

13 minutes ago, KJW said:

I don't agree. For example, it was a conservative Supreme Court that recently overturned Roe v. Wade.

 

 

Yes, there is that. But what it means is that Christianity doesn't align itself properly along left/right political lines. For one thing, there is this whole "obedience to God" aspect of Christianity that does not sit well with the left. For example, the members of science forums tend to be leftist, but science forums are rather unfriendly places for anyone promoting Christianity.
 

 

Yes but how did the Conservative Party get so removed from the Christianity?

Okay so this is the strange and odd part the Conservative Party is extremely rooted with Christianity. Lots of the Conservatives in the Deep South and Midwest are very very religious. Lots of congressman and senators are evangels in the Deep South and Midwest.

But how did Conservative Party get so removed from the Christianity?

And yet in the US, the policies of the far left and I say the far left because the liberals in the US are centrist right compared to Europe and Canada are arguably align better with Christianity. Helping the weak, feeding the hungry, helping the poor and homeless healing the sick and universal healthcare and dealing evils of capitalism.

So what happen to the Conservative Party? How did it get like this so removed from these things? But branded has Christianity party. That the christians vote for and love.

Edited August 18 by nec209

[iNow]

Seems to fit 

[swansont]

34 minutes ago, KJW said:

I don't agree. For example, it was a conservative Supreme Court that recently overturned Roe v. Wade.

So? Abortion is not a big deal in the Bible. 

2 hours ago, nec209 said:

That is odd because when I read link above I can see the URL going to other website but when I click on it well it takes me back here.

You pasted some other link using the text

2 hours ago, nec209 said:

I thought you wanted me to find Bible verses on wealth? Has that is what we are talking about money and wealth?

Bible verses, sure. Urantia is not the Bible.

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, nec209 said:

 

Here is a discussion with Jesus about wealth and money. Again the text is very muddy and not clear but seems Jesus was more concern about greed than rich people. If you where rich but not greedy with money and had faith with God was okay in God eye.

The Bible and Jesus is not clear giving both liberal and conservative views. Looking at the christians forums they don’t seem to be concern about being rich. When question is ask is it sin to be rich.

 

As you can see the discussion with Jesus was very muddy and not clear. 

 

Riches have nothing directly to do with entrance into the kingdom of heaven, but the love of wealth does. [/B]The spiritual loyalties of the kingdom are incompatible with servility to materialistic mammon. Man may not share his supreme loyalty to a spiritual ideal with a material devotion.

163:2.11 (1803.2)Jesus never taught that it was wrong to have wealth. He required only the twelve and the seventy to dedicate all of their worldly possessions to the common cause. Even then, he provided for the profitable liquidation of their property, as in the case of the Apostle Matthew. Jesus many times advised his well-to-do disciples as he taught the rich man of Rome. The Master regarded the wise investment of excess earnings as a legitimate form of insurance against future and unavoidable adversity. 

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-163-ordination-seventy-magadan

5. Counseling the Rich Man
132:5.1 (1462.2)A certain rich man, a Roman citizen and a Stoic, became greatly interested in Jesus’ teaching, having been introduced by Angamon. After many intimate conferences this wealthy citizen asked Jesus what he would do with wealth if he had it, and Jesus answered him: “I would bestow material wealth for the enhancement of material life, even as I would minister knowledge, wisdom, and spiritual service for the enrichment of the intellectual life, the ennoblement of the social life, and the advancement of the spiritual life. I would administer material wealth as a wise and effective trustee of the resources of one generation for the benefit and ennoblement of the next and succeeding generations.”

132:5.2 (1462.3)But the rich man was not fully satisfied with Jesus’ answer. He made bold to ask again: “But what do you think a man in my position should do with his wealth? Should I keep it, or should I give it away?” And when Jesus perceived that he really desired to know more of the truth about his loyalty to God and his duty to men, he further answered: “My good friend, I discern that you are a sincere seeker after wisdom and an honest lover of truth; therefore am I minded to lay before you my view of the solution of your problems having to do with the responsibilities of wealth. I do this because you have asked for my counsel, and in giving you this advice, I am not concerned with the wealth of any other rich man; I am offering advice only to you and for your personal guidance. If you honestly desire to regard your wealth as a trust, if you really wish to become a wise and efficient steward of your accumulated wealth, then would I counsel you to make the following analysis of the sources of your riches: Ask yourself, and do your best to find the honest answer, whence came this wealth? And as a help in the study of the sources of your great fortune, I would suggest that you bear in mind the following ten different methods of amassing material wealth:"Read On"
https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-132-sojourn-rome

https://truthbook.com/jesus/matadormus-the-rich-young-man/
 

 

 

Looking at the text it seem God was more concern that people help the poor and needy than rich people. Has God is okay that some people are really rich and wealthy. But wants people to turn to God and help the poor and needy.

This probably why the Church stands on millionaires and billionaires in the world is not sinful.

God didn't right the bible, people did...

Besides god doesn't need the money, therefore the question is for 'poeple' of all faith's and antifaith's and everyone in between; god would have to make a new Jesus in order to, vicariously, join the conversation.

Jesus said love your neighbours, he didn't stipulate an earnings bracket; in fact, I think he felt sorry for the rich, and not because they're evil... 😉 (look it up)

[nec209]

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

God didn't right the bible, people did...

Besides god doesn't need the money, therefore the question is for 'poeple' of all faith's and antifaith's and everyone in between; god would have to make a new Jesus in order to, vicariously, join the conversation.

Jesus said love your neighbours, he didn't stipulate an earnings bracket; in fact, I think he felt sorry for the rich, and not because they're evil... 😉 (look it up)

I think it was pointed out text from Bible showing being rich is not sin and other text saying Jesus saying being rich person harder to get to haven so points to many conflicting text.

That why one member said 

Which is why you can’t use the Bible as a reliable reference. It’s an anthology where different authors give conflicting instructions. 

 

So I’m sure what else is there to discuss in this thread now.