Is the problem of Hell actually a problem?

[MigL]

11 hours ago, zapatos said:

If I hate cats due to their nature and would torture any that were in my house, then I too would be a dick for purposely bringing a cat into my house knowing what was going to happen to it.

I don't mind you putting down religion and gods, but be careful what you say about cats 😁 .

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I don't mind you putting down religion and gods, but be careful what you say about cats 😁 .

For the record, this is Linus. 🥰

 

Edited August 29 by zapatos

[Phi for All]

25 minutes ago, zapatos said:

For the record, this is Linus. 🥰

 

So much suffering going on there! But the cat won't learn morality without torture, so bring out the feather wand!

[MigL]

This was a silly thread about the nonsense of religious beliefs, then it became real serious with people discussing the torture of cats 😮 .

[Peterkin]

16 hours ago, Night FM said:

You're talking about polytheistic deities which were conceived in the likeness of "powerful mortals".

Nope. All of 'em. There is nothing hypothetical about any of the gods people have worshipped. The bones of their sacrificial victims testify. Jehovah is the biggest hypocrite of all, according to his self-styled biographers. Of course, he was conceived in the likeness of a bigger, meaner, more powerful Abraham, so what can you expect but a loving father who kills his son to appease himself?   

16 hours ago, Night FM said:

the Biblical God is said to have created male and female in His own image,

He is said to have created man in his own image and fashioned woman from a mere sparerib. (This is the version Christians prefer. But the first version, the one that's most likely to have come from Chaldea of Genesis has him making lots of both, just as he made lots of other animals. They left it in, I suppose due to editor's oversight and later nobody dared to mess with the holy text.) 

But then, look at two fun-house mirrors showing two deformed images. Which reflects which? 

Priesthoods in different hierarchical societies invent the gods that best exemplify their own rulers, then add some embellishments  and magnify. Then they set the ruler's requirements into a code of religious tenets - divine laws to be obeyed on pain of the most horrendous punishments they could devise. Then imposed them on the people and forbade the teaching - or even suggestion - of any alternative ways of thinking. 

 

16 hours ago, Night FM said:

So unless there is some consistent attempt to define what makes a God (or a specific god) are to begin with, then I don't find generalized claims about "gods" productive.

That's all right. I can't think what it could possibly produce anyway

 

12 hours ago, Night FM said:

If a parent had foreknowledge that their child would grow up to be a serial killer, would they be immoral for giving birth to them?

Big time!

Edited August 29 by Peterkin

[dimreepr]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:46 PM, Peterkin said:

That's all right. I can't think what it could possibly produce anyway

It produces peace in the mind of a victim, so it has a value. 

When a vengeful God becomes to difficult to explain in terms of peace and love, one needs an antipode to explain the rest...

[MigL]

The Bible and other Religious scriptures are not just moral guidelines, they are also a means of control, to empower the rulers ( religious or otherwise ) and control immoral ancients who survived by strength and weapons.
The killing of offspring is not a moral guideline, but a means of control through a suggested punishment; same with the concept of heaven and hell.

People forget that these scriptures were written thousands of years ago, and reflect values of their times; notice the big difference in tone between old and new testaments. The old preaches 'an eye for an eye'. the new offers 'turn the other cheek' instead.

By all means, take the moral guidelines in the Bible that suggest you lead a good life that is compassionate and caring for others; disregard the rest as time reflecting nonsense.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

same with the concept of heaven and hell.

 

1 hour ago, MigL said:

By all means, take the moral guidelines in the Bible that suggest you lead a good life that is compassionate and caring for others; disregard the rest as time reflecting nonsense.

Thanks, I will... It makes me feel better; what's your excuse?

[swansont]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

 

Thanks, I will... It makes me feel better; what's your excuse?

!

Moderator Note

Just a reminder that not posting is an option

 

[Eise]

On 8/28/2024 at 3:36 PM, Eise said:

@Night FM: would you, personally, misbehave, when heaven and hell would not exist? If not, why? If yes, then I consider you as a morally bad person, because you only behave morally under the biggest threat possible. Do you really need that, just to be kind to others?

@Night FM: please answer my question.

31 minutes ago, swansont said:

!

Moderator Note

Just a reminder that not posting is an option

 

I agree, @dimreepr: give clear arguments, do not react with cryptic (and satirical) one-liners, or just let it be (speaking words of wisdom...)

Edited August 31 by Eise

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, Eise said:

@Night FM: please answer my question.

I agree, @dimreepr: give clear arguments, do not react with cryptic (and satirical) one-liners, or just let it be (speaking words of wisdom...)

Indeed, apologies to all, I buried my dog yesterday and the wake got out of hand (neither cryptic or a joke) ... 🙄

22 hours ago, MigL said:

The Bible and other Religious scriptures are not just moral guidelines, they are also a means of control, to empower the rulers ( religious or otherwise ) and control immoral ancients who survived by strength and weapons.

Indeed, they are also a means to find peace, a map of a path to contentment; politics muddy the water's by peddling fear; but who in their right mind would fear contentment.

Why, for instance, are contented people portrayed as 'sheeple'???

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why, for instance, are contented people portrayed as 'sheeple'???

It's not because they're contented (that would be cattle, anyway), it's because they are herded in a direction of the shepherd's choosing, not their own. 

I very much doubt the prospect of eternal hellfire gives people peace.

Doesn't seem to take it away, either, since the people who believe in it think it's for the unbelievers, not themselves, regardless of how deceitfully, cruelly and rapaciously they act. In the NT, those who didn't come up to snuff were 'cast out' while the good ones dwelt in the house of the Lord forever, but then the church fathers dredged up a couple of OT prophets who threatened final judgment and eternal torment for those Jehovah disliked. Many ancient religions have some kind of afterlife, more or less pleasant according to one's behaviour or station in life. The idea doesn't seem to have modified their behaviour any more than it does ours. 

So, ultimately, it makes no difference whatever.

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I buried my dog yesterday and the wake got out of hand

I'm very sorry for your loss and know exactly how you feel, having been there more than once. It should be a great consolation that you'll meet again in heaven - because I'm sure you are a good person. The prospect of being reunited with loved ones is perhaps the most persuasive argument for an afterlife, much more so than reward and punishment. 

[MigL]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, apologies to all,

Sorry for your loss; hasn't been an easy year for you.

No apologies are needed in my case.
I've gotten used to you, and I actually find it quite refreshing that you allow your personality to come through the screens of text.
Sometimes you get the impression that some are not the people their posts would indicate, instead you actually allow people to get to know you.

[TheVat]

5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I'm very sorry for your loss and know exactly how you feel, having been there more than once. It should be a great consolation that you'll meet again in heaven - because I'm sure you are a good person. The prospect of being reunited with loved ones is perhaps the most persuasive argument for an afterlife, much more so than reward and punishment. 

Where is Peterkin and what have you done with them??

🙂

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

Where is Peterkin and what have you done with them??

What? You don't think a curmudgeon can love a dog? Or perhaps that a confirmed atheist arrived at that conclusion without having considered readily available alternatives?

Edited September 1 by Peterkin

[TheVat]

4 hours ago, Peterkin said:

What? You don't think a curmudgeon can love a dog? Or perhaps that a confirmed atheist arrived at that conclusion without having considered readily available alternatives?

A wee joke.  You posted

6 hours ago, TheVat said:

The prospect of being reunited with loved ones is perhaps the most persuasive argument for an afterlife

which struck me as somewhat less skeptical than what I've seen in other posts from you.  I think you were kindly tossing Dim a bone there.  No pun intended, and I was sorry to hear he lost a faithful 4-legger friend.  

[Peterkin]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

which struck me as somewhat less skeptical than what I've seen in other posts from you.  I think you were kindly tossing Dim a bone there. 

No, I would not condescend to him. I was sincere. My mother was an independent believer - that is, she took from the doctrine what she considered good and disregarded the rest. Many self-identified Christians think that way, whether they say it or not. I was brought up in a mixed Christian family, attending both Catholic and Protestant churches - and finding much to appreciate in both. When I was old enough to read the Bible, I rather liked the Jesus character (very few others in either book, I have to admit) and thought he had some sensible things to say. (If only he hadn't been so childish as to curse that fig tree  and the pigs, I'd have admired him.) I liked many of the teachings. At that time, I didn't know that so-called Christians generally ignored them. 

I'm 100% sincere about the reunion argument being the most persuasive for eternal life. We don't obey the law because we fear punishment - nobody expects to be caught. We obey it because it makes sense. We want to go to Heaven, not to escape Hell or to be rewarded or to hang out with God, but simply to continue and have our best relationships and best earthly experiences continue.

That's a very seductive notion. Hard to give up. Long after you realize it's just another bogus carrot, the after-image lingers.    

 

Edited September 2 by Peterkin

[dimreepr]

22 hours ago, Peterkin said:

It's not because they're contented (that would be cattle, anyway), it's because they are herded in a direction of the shepherd's choosing, not their own. 

Again with negative emotive language, the shepherd is trying to keep them safe, so they can eat their fill of the best grass and sleep, without being eaten.

22 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I very much doubt the prospect of eternal hellfire gives people peace.

It does when it's the other guy that's suffering, especially if it's 'that' guy, he clearly deserves to (and I've got no other means to demonstrate how much he hurt me) for some reason...

22 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Doesn't seem to take it away, either, since the people who believe in it think it's for the unbelievers, not themselves, regardless of how deceitfully, cruelly and rapaciously they act. In the NT, those who didn't come up to snuff were 'cast out' while the good ones dwelt in the house of the Lord forever, but then the church fathers dredged up a couple of OT prophets who threatened final judgment and eternal torment for those Jehovah disliked. Many ancient religions have some kind of afterlife, more or less pleasant according to one's behaviour or station in life. The idea doesn't seem to have modified their behaviour any more than it does ours. 

You're conflating an awful lot of history here, but imagine for a second the fundamental message is, heaven can only be achieved here and now, while we're alive and hell is a concept designed to help you achieve that.

It doesn't have to be a 'brave new world' 'big brother' type scenario, it could just be a nice shepherd with an honest intent. 

[Peterkin]

19 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Again with negative emotive language, the shepherd is trying to keep them safe, so they can eat their fill of the best grass and sleep, without being eaten.

Why does the shepherd do this? Because he has a plan for them: to shear their fleece and slaughter their young. 

 

[dimreepr]

21 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I'm very sorry for your loss and know exactly how you feel, having been there more than once. It should be a great consolation that you'll meet again in heaven - because I'm sure you are a good person. The prospect of being reunited with loved ones is perhaps the most persuasive argument for an afterlife, much more so than reward and punishment. 

Thank you.

But, TBH, we've had our fun and what fun it 'was'; if I want to smile, I close my eye's and picture the time she ran gleefully into the canal bc it was covered by a blanket of duckweed, I almost pissed myself laughing as I fished her out...

Why wait for heaven...

 

5 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Why does the shepherd do this? Because he has a plan for them: to shear their fleece and slaughter their young. 

That's a conspiracy theory, designed to inspire fear; hell is a conspiracy designed to inspire peace.

But if we consider the shepherd as a metaphore for teacher, given that we're not sheep, then it makes more sense...

[Peterkin]

13 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That's a conspiracy theory, designed to inspire fear;

Lamb is not a metaphor; it is a meat humans consume. Wool is not a metaphor; it is a fabric humans wear to compensate for their own lack of fur. The shepherd does not teach his flock anything but obedience. It's not a conspiracy; it's not a theory; it's not an allegory: it is life as lived on this planet.

If the prospect of sending other people to eternal torment gives you peace, I repent of my earlier observation regarding your character.

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

Lamb is not a metaphor; it is a meat humans consume. Wool is not a metaphor; it is a fabric humans wear to compensate for their own lack of fur. The shepherd does not teach his flock anything but obedience. It's not a conspiracy; it's not a theory; it's not an allegory: it is life as lived on this planet.

Indeed and I am not a vegan, but I'm from traditional farming stock and we, quite often, take pride in how we take care of the farmed; but that's another topic entirely... 

11 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

If the prospect of sending other people to eternal torment gives you peace, I repent of my earlier observation regarding your character.

You do understand that I'm not literally sending anyone anywhere, right?

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

23 hours ago, Peterkin said:

I very much doubt the prospect of eternal hellfire gives people peace.

It does when it's the other guy that's suffering, especially if it's 'that' guy, he clearly deserves to (and I've got no other means to demonstrate how much he hurt me) for some reason...

 

[dimreepr]

What gives you peace?