rakuenso Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 anyone know a reaction with aluminum foils that can be done with common household chemicals to yield powdered aluminum?
Alchemist Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 powdered aluminum is made by crushing aluminum to (powdered)dust. Not by a chemical reaction!!
H2SO4 Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 stick some aluminum foil in a ball mill. And come back in a few weeks.
xeluc Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 I've tried it. It's about impossible to do by chemical means. Aluminum is just too reactive...
budullewraagh Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 perhaps you could try thermal decomposition of the tartarate salt?
latentheat Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 perhaps you could try thermal decomposition of the tartarate salt? If that works it would likely result in really, disturbingly fine powder.
woelen Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 If that works it would likely result in really, disturbingly fine powder. No, it does not work. You'll end up with aluminium oxide.
budullewraagh Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 it works with lead tartarate. you end up with nanodust. could you explain how the Al oxide is formed?
jdurg Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 Aluminum is a HELLUVA lot more reactive than lead is. As a result, the particles are so fine that they immediately react with oxygen and you form aluminum oxide instead of aluminum metal. Lead metal is non-reactive enough where the lead metal that's formed won't oxidize immediately.
woelen Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 Aluminum is a HELLUVA lot more reactive than lead is. As a result, the particles are so fine that they immediately react with oxygen and you form aluminum oxide instead of aluminum metal. Lead metal is non-reactive enough where the lead metal that's formed won't oxidize immediately. Given this explanation, you could try in vacuum or in an inert atmosphere, where there is no oxygen. I think it is even stronger. Even in an inert environment, I expect that aluminium oxide is formed. The tartrate ion contains quite some oxygen and because of the strong electropositive nature of aluminium I expect that the oxygen will bind to the aluminium, as soon as the tartrate decomposes. A similar difference can befound between HgC2O4 and MgC2O4 (mercury and magnesium oxalate). On heating, the Hg-salt gives CO2 and metallic Hg, the Mg-salt (and also the Ca-salt) gives CO, CO2 and MgO or CaO, even in an inert atmosphere.
budullewraagh Posted October 2, 2005 Posted October 2, 2005 i thought you were going to bring up atmospheric oxidation, which would occur especially at the temperatures required for thermal decomposition. in an inert atmosphere, however, i really dont think there would be oxidation, but hey, it's my word vs yours. if you want to experiment, go for it
xeluc Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 Thing is, can this guy provide an inert atmosphere for your method to work?
jdurg Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 In that case, you'd be best off going to a paint store and buying the bottles of powdered aluminum that many of them carry. (Actually, I should have said 'art' store instead of paint store).
xeluc Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 i've a budget o f $15 lol... @Jdurg Thanks! I'll try that. Would like. Pat Catans be good? What's a store I could use?
budullewraagh Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 "Thing is, can this guy provide an inert atmosphere for your method to work?" yes, if he wishes to buy a tank of argon, CO2, helium, or whatev
rakuenso Posted October 3, 2005 Author Posted October 3, 2005 CO2? meaning i can just get a flask and breath in my nose and exhale some CO2 into the flask? XD
ebola Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 Your breath still contains a whole lotta leftover oxygen which your lungs couldn't absorb. Wouldn't be a great idea to do that. Try using a helium baloon. It does contain some noble gases. Just what are you going to do with this powder?
rakuenso Posted October 3, 2005 Author Posted October 3, 2005 lol i was kidding but anyways, well lots of things ; )
budullewraagh Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 "Try using a helium baloon. It does contain some noble gases." namely helium
jdurg Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 Some of those helium tanks, however, have a bit of oxygen put in there due to the fact that people like to breathe in helium to alter their voice, but forget that they're displacing oxygen at the same time. So some helium tank fillers put a bit of oxygen in there so people won't pass-out from inhaling a balloon.
YT2095 Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 I must have a really good tank here then, a few breathe of that and you`re on yer back! as for buying the alu powder from an art shop, Some (not all) add a coating of oil on the alu powder, it stops oxidation, you need to add lighter petrol to this (enough to cover it) stir well and then filter it OUTSIDE! you`ll still have a very Tiny coating, but alot less than before. the petrol evaporates leaving the trace.
rthmjohn Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 Is it even possible to prepare powdered aluminum in a ball mill? What grinding media would you have to use?
YT2095 Posted October 3, 2005 Posted October 3, 2005 it is, and takes ages! I used quartz stones (yes I collected them off a mates gravel driveway)
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