Exploding Pagers Injure Hundreds in Lebanon

[MigL]

  On 9/18/2024 at 1:49 AM, TheVat said:

Cruel and cowardly as much of warfare now is.

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So, you can't specifically target the "bad guys' as that is cowardly, and you can't have collateral damage as that is cruel.
Doesn't give many alternative choices other than 'shut up and take it'.
not a good time to be an Israeli.

  On 9/18/2024 at 11:49 AM, StringJunky said:

That basically looks like an act of common garden terrorism on innocent people.

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See what I mean ?

 

'

[Phi for All]

  On 9/18/2024 at 6:36 PM, MigL said:

So, you can't specifically target the "bad guys' as that is cowardly, and you can't have collateral damage as that is cruel.
Doesn't give many alternative choices other than 'shut up and take it'.
not a good time to be an Israeli.

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This argument would hold more weight if we weren't witnesses to the lengths Israel has gone to in their cleansing efforts. Ever since its creation, Israeli policy has been to keep punching their neighbors in the face, then overreact when that neighbor punches back, hopefully gaining a little more territory in the process. It's Middle Eastern Jim Crow strategy, designed to oppress while subjugating. American conservatives taught them well, just keep your foot on their throats and tell everyone you have to keep kicking them or they'll hurt somebody.

[StringJunky]

  On 9/18/2024 at 6:36 PM, MigL said:

So, you can't specifically target the "bad guys' as that is cowardly, and you can't have collateral damage as that is cruel.
Doesn't give many alternative choices other than 'shut up and take it'.
not a good time to be an Israeli.

See what I mean ?

 

'

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I don't have the 'Founding Fathers' mentality, where invaders are pioneers struggling for "independence". 

[CharonY]

It is a bit of an issue when one really wants to have a good vs bad narrative where both sides are engaging in unethical behavior. It too frequently devolves into a race to the bottom rather than stepping back and condemning the paths (plural) taken. Worse, alternatives (improbable and difficult as they might be) get drowned out.

 

[StringJunky]

  On 9/18/2024 at 6:48 PM, Phi for All said:

This argument would hold more weight if we weren't witnesses to the lengths Israel has gone to in their cleansing efforts. Ever since its creation, Israeli policy has been to keep punching their neighbors in the face, then overreact when that neighbor punches back, hopefully gaining a little more territory in the process. It's Middle Eastern Jim Crow strategy, designed to oppress while subjugating. American conservatives taught them well, just keep your foot on their throats and tell everyone you have to keep kicking them or they'll hurt somebody.

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It's people like you that remind me that American foreign policy and independently-thinking Americans aren't the same. I feel the same way, as an English man, with my government. They are  the co-architects and willing stooges of the Israeli debacle that perpetuates the instability in the Middle East.
 

[iNow]

  On 9/18/2024 at 6:08 PM, CharonY said:

Huh, makes sense. I would ban cellphones from the lab, if I could. 

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If for no other reason than they're filthy and contaminated. 

[Sensei]

  On 9/17/2024 at 11:33 PM, toucana said:

The explosives were concealed next to the battery, with an embedded detonation switch that could be remotely triggered by a text message.

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Now the Jews and Israel are officially terrorist organizations..

 

[StringJunky]

  On 9/18/2024 at 9:02 PM, Sensei said:

Now the Jews Zionists and Israel are officially terrorist organizations..

 

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[MigL]

  On 9/18/2024 at 6:48 PM, Phi for All said:

This argument would hold more weight if we weren't witnesses to the lengths Israel has gone to in their cleansing efforts.

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Rationalize it any way you want.
Israel doesn't have a documented policy of 'exterminating' their neighbors, although they could, as the only nuclear capable 'superpower' in the area.
What about Hamas ?
What about Hezbollah ?
What about the former PLO ?
What about Egypt at one time ?
What about Iran ?
What about Syria ?

Just how many do you want me to list before you open your eyes and realize that you guys are the enablers that the actual terrorists ( which I attemped to list, but there are too many ) play, to gain sympathy for their cause and 'punish' Israel, and Jews, worldwide.

I hear plenty of condemnations from you guys.
Either they are overreacting, being too over-reaching in their retaliatory attacks and killing too many civilians, or they are cowardly terrorists who strike with surgical attacks to kill actual terrorists using outdated  20 year old technology.
I have yet to hear a single suggestion on how to acheive peace so that both sides don't have to worry about attacks.

Maybe you think Jews should just disappear off the face of the Earth and that would solve the problem.
Another guy with a weird mustache thought the same way about 85 years ago.

[StringJunky]

  On 9/18/2024 at 9:40 PM, MigL said:

Rationalize it any way you want.
Israel doesn't have a documented policy of 'exterminating' their neighbors, although they could, as the only nuclear capable 'superpower' in the area.
What about Hamas ?
What about Hezbollah ?
What about the former PLO ?
What about Egypt at one time ?
What about Iran ?
What about Syria ?

Just how many do you want me to list before you open your eyes and realize that you guys are the enablers that the actual terrorists ( which I attemped to list, but there are too many ) play, to gain sympathy for their cause and 'punish' Israel, and Jews, worldwide.

I hear plenty of condemnations from you guys.
Either they are overreacting, being too over-reaching in their retaliatory attacks and killing too many civilians, or they are cowardly terrorists who strike with surgical attacks to kill actual terrorists using outdated  20 year old technology.
I have yet to hear a single suggestion on how to acheive peace so that both sides don't have to worry about attacks.

Maybe you think Jews should just disappear off the face of the Earth and that would solve the problem.
Another guy with a weird mustache thought the same way about 85 years ago.

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I don't conflate Jews with Zionists. Zionists are a political grouping. It is not fair to lump Torah-respecting Jews that follow the true diasporic spirit of their faith and sense of global community with people who act like they are the New Aryans with an inalienable right to land they hadn't governed since 135AD.

[Phi for All]

  On 9/18/2024 at 9:40 PM, MigL said:

Rationalize it any way you want.
Israel doesn't have a documented policy of 'exterminating' their neighbors, although they could, as the only nuclear capable 'superpower' in the area.
What about Hamas ?
What about Hezbollah ?
What about the former PLO ?
What about Egypt at one time ?
What about Iran ?
What about Syria ?

Just how many do you want me to list before you open your eyes and realize that you guys are the enablers that the actual terrorists ( which I attemped to list, but there are too many ) play, to gain sympathy for their cause and 'punish' Israel, and Jews, worldwide.

I hear plenty of condemnations from you guys.
Either they are overreacting, being too over-reaching in their retaliatory attacks and killing too many civilians, or they are cowardly terrorists who strike with surgical attacks to kill actual terrorists using outdated  20 year old technology.
I have yet to hear a single suggestion on how to acheive peace so that both sides don't have to worry about attacks.

Maybe you think Jews should just disappear off the face of the Earth and that would solve the problem.
Another guy with a weird mustache thought the same way about 85 years ago.

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Do you support Zionism, MigL?

  On 9/18/2024 at 9:40 PM, MigL said:

Maybe you think Jews should just disappear off the face of the Earth and that would solve the problem.

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Why do you insist on these insulting strawmen? Please feel free to shove this "Maybe you think Jews" comment back up your ass where it came from.

[swansont]

  On 9/18/2024 at 9:02 PM, Sensei said:

Now the Jews and Israel are officially terrorist organizations..

 

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!

Moderator Note

Please take care not to malign an entire religion (in violation of rule 2.1) when your target is a political group. i.e. not all Jews are Israelis, and not all Israelis support their government’s actions.

 

[joigus]

  On 9/18/2024 at 6:36 PM, MigL said:

So, you can't specifically target the "bad guys' as that is cowardly, and you can't have collateral damage as that is cruel.
Doesn't give many alternative choices other than 'shut up and take it'.
not a good time to be an Israeli.

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It's not like there still are more than 100 innocent civilians kept as prisoners, raped, abused, undernourished, deprived of their medicines, under a death threat every single day since last October 7th, in Gaza; in some cases, executed for logistic expediency.

It's not like more than 80,000 Israelies have been displaced from their homes thanks to Hezbollah.

It's not like any Israeli Arab is culturally, ethnically, linguistically indistinguishable from a non-Israeli Arab from Gaza or the West Bank (aka 'Palestinian') but, for some magical reason, those are not being ethnically cleansed.

It's not like children are being trained by Hamas to torture and kill Israelies in special training camps, and in the specific case of Be'eri children were given torches to burn people alive in their panic rooms. Because, you know, it's more fun when a child commits murder.

It's not like Hamas has purposefully and systematically made civilian people and facilities blend in with military depos and headquarters and made guerrillas dress as ordinary guys, or as women in burkas.

It's not like the leaders of Hamas* themselves have said that the death of their children is a necessary sacrifice and those that die on behalf of the advancement of Islam are now in Paradise.

Oh, wait. It is. It is exactly like that.

Oh, yes. It is. Hamas and Hezbollah are cults (same as ISIL, ISIS, etc), steeped in 7th-century ideology post-processed as a political brand for the purposes of the advancement of the Islamic Republic of Iran to become the next Caliphate. They will never sit to negociate anything, mid or long term.

* Ismail Haniyeh: 

  Quote

Through the blood of the martyrs and the pain of the injured, we create hope, we create the future, we create independence and freedom for our people and our nation

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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/10/israeli-forces-kill-three-children-of-hamas-leader-ismail-haniyeh-in-gaza

[CharonY]

  On 9/18/2024 at 9:00 PM, iNow said:

If for no other reason than they're filthy and contaminated. 

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Well I banned them from use in our biosecure rooms for that reason. The contamination risk would be too high. But if I tried in BSL1 areas the fight would not be worth my energy.

[StringJunky]

  On 9/18/2024 at 10:59 PM, joigus said:

It's not like there still are more than 100 innocent civilians kept as prisoners, raped, abused, undernourished, deprived of their medicines, under a death threat every single day since last October 7th, in Gaza; in some cases, executed for logistic expediency.

It's not like more than 80,000 Israelies have been displaced from their homes thanks to Hezbollah.

It's not like any Israeli Arab is culturally, ethnically, linguistically indistinguishable from a non-Israeli Arab from Gaza or the West Bank (aka 'Palestinian') but, for some magical reason, those are not being ethnically cleansed.

It's not like children are being trained by Hamas to torture and kill Israelies in special training camps, and in the specific case of Be'eri children were given torches to burn people alive in their panic rooms. Because, you know, it's more fun when a child commits murder.

It's not like Hamas has purposefully and systematically made civilian people and facilities blend in with military depos and headquarters and made guerrillas dress as ordinary guys, or as women in burkas.

It's not like the leaders of Hamas* themselves have said that the death of their children is a necessary sacrifice and those that die on behalf of the advancement of Islam are now in Paradise.

Oh, wait. It is. It is exactly like that.

Oh, yes. It is. Hamas and Hezbollah are cults (same as ISIL, ISIS, etc), steeped in 7th-century ideology post-processed as a political brand for the purposes of the advancement of the Islamic Republic of Iran to become the next Caliphate. They will never sit to negociate anything, mid or long term.

* Ismail Haniyeh: 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/10/israeli-forces-kill-three-children-of-hamas-leader-ismail-haniyeh-in-gaza

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OK, all I'll say is you've drunk well on the Zionist Kool-Aid. Antizionist Jews and Muslims get on just fine. Zionism is the problem, not Judaism. I have devout Jewish and Muslim facebook friends that I share posts with every day. Lovely people. There is no religious disharmony between moderate Jews and Muslims. They are, after all, including Christianity, worshipping the same God and revering the same prophets, bar one. The disharmony is purely of Zionist construction and lies to support their maximalist political land grabbing aims in the Middle East. 

 Hamas, Hezbollah and the people of Gaza an West Bank are one united entity. The concentration camp-like conditions of Gaza and West Bank leave the armed resistance with no choice but to blend in with their families and neighbours, with the concomitant tragedies that they have to endure between them. They don't have the luxury of being able to fight their cause away from civilian centres, like the Zionists do. They do what they can with the negligible resources that they have. Zionists are dropping TWO THOUSAND POUND BOMBS on tents. FFS.

How many images like this, not hearsay, can you produce of Hamas-held hostages? I've got dozens, and more, on my hard drive like this. The sad reality for the Israeli hostages is that Netanyahu et al have sacrificed them as part of their 'Hannibal Directive' i.e. they are expendable.

 

Edited September 19, 2024 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

  On 9/18/2024 at 10:59 PM, joigus said:

It's not like there still are more than 100 innocent civilians kept as prisoners, raped, abused, undernourished, deprived of their medicines, under a death threat every single day since last October 7th, in Gaza; in some cases, executed for logistic expediency.

It's not like more than 80,000 Israelies have been displaced from their homes thanks to Hezbollah.

It's not like any Israeli Arab is culturally, ethnically, linguistically indistinguishable from a non-Israeli Arab from Gaza or the West Bank (aka 'Palestinian') but, for some magical reason, those are not being ethnically cleansed.

It's not like children are being trained by Hamas to torture and kill Israelies in special training camps, and in the specific case of Be'eri children were given torches to burn people alive in their panic rooms. Because, you know, it's more fun when a child commits murder.

It's not like Hamas has purposefully and systematically made civilian people and facilities blend in with military depos and headquarters and made guerrillas dress as ordinary guys, or as women in burkas.

It's not like the leaders of Hamas* themselves have said that the death of their children is a necessary sacrifice and those that die on behalf of the advancement of Islam are now in Paradise.

Oh, wait. It is. It is exactly like that.

Oh, yes. It is. Hamas and Hezbollah are cults (same as ISIL, ISIS, etc), steeped in 7th-century ideology post-processed as a political brand for the purposes of the advancement of the Islamic Republic of Iran to become the next Caliphate. They will never sit to negociate anything, mid or long term.

* Ismail Haniyeh: 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/10/israeli-forces-kill-three-children-of-hamas-leader-ismail-haniyeh-in-gaza

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I think it is clear that Hamas and Hezbollah are in fact terrorist organizations, and stating it as such won't incur any modnotes for that reason. However, this is should not mean that any actions conducted by Israel should be deemed ethical. I will note that Israel should not be necessarily singled out in principle in the question of what responses are considered appropriate and how much collateral damage (which ultimately just means innocent deaths) are warranted for what level of perceived security (see the USA as an example). But again, it seems like trying to figure who is worse and therefore more entitled to killing folks, a race to the moral bottom.

Now, there are uninformed folks who do glorify (to various degrees) Hamas actions, which is nothing but despicable, but again, that should not be a carte blanche for indiscriminate retaliation and other amoral actions (including actions in the West Bank. The conflict does not have a sole source and a sole perpetrator and one being the bad guy does not make the other one the good guy.

[MigL]

  On 9/18/2024 at 10:07 PM, Phi for All said:

Do you support Zionism, MigL?

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Notice I asked 6 questions, none of which were answered.

But I will answer yours.
No, I don't support Zionism; I support the right of people to live without the fear of being attacked, and, if they are, the right to retaliate such that those attacks are no longer possible.
Not a 'proportional response' ( whatever that means ), but the actual removal of the capability to attack in the first place.

That is my opinion and what I practice in life, and why I have never physically attacked anybody in my life, as that is their right also.
So I answered your question and told you where my opinion comes from; you answered none of my questions, and told me to shove my opinion.
Well done; you must be proud of yourself.

 

  On 9/19/2024 at 12:08 AM, StringJunky said:

Antizionist Jews and Muslims get on just fine.

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Really ?
That is certainly true in Israel.

Put a Jew, or Israeli, in Gaza.
Put a Jew, or Israeli, in Iran.
See how long they last. 

Edited September 19, 2024 by MigL

[TheVat]

  On 9/18/2024 at 9:40 PM, MigL said:

I have yet to hear a single suggestion on how to acheive peace so that both sides don't have to worry about attacks.

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Weird.  Ever since the forced dispossession of 700,000+ Palestinians in 1947-8, aka the Naqba, the native peoples of that region have offered a real simple suggestion.  Stop stealing people's land and kicking them out of their homes and razing their olive and fruit groves and systematically brutalizing them while forcing them into small enclaves of poverty.  Stop the endless cycles of reprisal and repression.  Allow a two state solution.  Stop calling people who want their homes back terrorists and vermin.  Stop carpet bombing and killing innocent civilians in vengeful and vicious ratios up to 40:1 to your own losses and then shrugging it off as collateral damage while you blame the victims.

Really not a big secret.  

  On 9/19/2024 at 1:44 AM, MigL said:

I support the right of people to live without the fear of being attacked, and, if they are, the right to retaliate such that those attacks are no longer possible.

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I am delighted to hear that you support the Palestinians in their ongoing struggle to gain those rights!  

[MigL]

  On 9/19/2024 at 2:10 AM, TheVat said:

Ever since the forced dispossession of 700,000+ Palestinians in 1947-8, aka the Naqba ...

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Absolutely right.
2000 years ago my people owned all of Europe, from a wall in Scotland to the middle East.
Then Germanic Vandals, Franks, Lombards, Normans and eventually even Muslims dispossessed my ancestral lands.
I should have the right to fire rockets indiscriminately at Germany, France, Eastern Europe, Scandinavian countries and the Middle East. Maybe brainwash some young suicide bombers, and rape, kill and kidnap people at their music festivals.

Just how far back do you go to justify violence ?

 

  On 9/19/2024 at 2:10 AM, TheVat said:

I am delighted to hear that you support the Palestinians in their ongoing struggle to gain those rights!  

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I do, but committing violence is never a right. Self defense, however, is.

  On 9/19/2024 at 1:44 AM, MigL said:

 I support the right of people to live without the fear of being attacked, and, if they are, the right to retaliate such that those attacks are no longer possible ... and why I have never physically attacked anybody in my life, as that is their right also.

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Because if I ever punched anyone in the face, I fully expect them to break my arm to prevent me doing so again.
Something Hamas, Hezbollah and even Iran ( as they furiously try to develop their own nukes ) should keep in mind.

Edited September 19, 2024 by MigL

[StringJunky]

  On 9/19/2024 at 1:44 AM, MigL said:

eally ?
That is certainly true in Israel.

Put a Jew, or Israeli, in Gaza.
Put a Jew, or Israeli, in Iran.
See how long they last. 

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There are up to 10 000 Iranian Jews living in Iran. Tehran has 25 functioning synagogues. Jews in Gaza is difficult to answer, since there are illegal settlers there,  but antizionist Jewish groups , like Naturei Karta, cordially associated with Hamas prior to Oct 7th. Moderate Muslims and Jews are not fundamentally or philosophically  opposed to each other, but Zionists are with both the others. Zionists, in fact, regard antizionist Jews as traitors.

  On 9/19/2024 at 3:13 AM, MigL said:

Absolutely right.
1000 years ago my people owned all of Europe, from a wall in Scotland to the middle East.
Then Germanic Vandals, Franks, Lombards, Normans and eventually even Muslims dispossessed my ancestral lands.
I should have the right to fire rockets indiscriminately at Germany, France, Eastern Europe, Scandinavian countries and the Middle East.

Just how far back do you go to justify violence ?

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The Nakba of 1948 is within living memory... and is on-going. Zionists are claiming territorial rights that they lost in 135AD to the Romans...your lot.... 1800+ years ago. You Italians have got a  lot to answer for. 😛 As Oliver Hardy said to Stan Laurel: "Look what a fine mess you've got us into!"

Edited September 19, 2024 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

  On 9/19/2024 at 3:13 AM, MigL said:

Absolutely right.
2000 years ago my people owned all of Europe, from a wall in Scotland to the middle East.

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You are aware that that these events are not that long ago and folks had (maybe still have) great parents with memories of that event? And that they still draw a direct line to their current situation (and issues such as illegal Israeli settlements certainly don't help the relationship). 

Also your example is a bit ironic as conflict within the empire even before the slow (hundreds of years) decline were rife with internal conflict of the conquered regions. And the successor states kept waging war for many years after that. During that time, the self identification of the people (including language and culture) have changed and their relationship to the Romans (either as successor or rivals) eventually diminished (after all, they could beat up Austrians now). I doubt that this is the timeline you are thinking about resolving it, though I hope.

 

Edit: crossposted with StringJunky.

Just an uninformed thought- I wonder how targeted this attack ultimately is. While any death of innocents is lamentable- at least in theory it doesn't sound like a mass-casualty attack. But again, I have not read much detail on it. 

 

[StringJunky]

  On 9/19/2024 at 3:48 AM, CharonY said:

Edit: crossposted with StringJunky.

Just an uninformed thought- I wonder how targeted this attack ultimately is. While any death of innocents is lamentable- at least in theory it doesn't sound like a mass-casualty attack. But again, I have not read much detail on it. 

 

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AFAIK, from reading, up until now, there was a more nuanced attack plan with specific conditions to be met before setting these devices off to maximize the effect of their main battle plan. It appears that they realized their adversaries were getting wind of something afoot, so they possibly cut their losses and went for what damage they could inflict instead. That's why I called it a 'common garden terrorist attack' earlier. The intended military objective was not achieved, it appears.

Edited September 19, 2024 by StringJunky

[iNow]

  On 9/19/2024 at 3:48 AM, CharonY said:

I wonder how targeted this attack ultimately is.

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It’s reasonably safe to assume that pagers and walkie talkies ordered by Hezbollah leadership for use by Hezbollah combatants to specifically communicate Hezbollah attack plans and tactics were primarily in the possession of Hezbollah members when they were detonated. 

Except for proceeding early for fear they were about to be discovered, this was probably one of the most precisely targeted attacks we’ve seen anywhere in decades.

 

Anyway, much like trans discussions, the exchanges above reminds us of the reason our enemies so often seek to inject these topics into daily conversation given the way they so easily lead friends and family to feud. 

X-posted with SJ

[exchemist]

  On 9/18/2024 at 9:40 PM, MigL said:

Rationalize it any way you want.
Israel doesn't have a documented policy of 'exterminating' their neighbors, although they could, as the only nuclear capable 'superpower' in the area.
What about Hamas ?
What about Hezbollah ?
What about the former PLO ?
What about Egypt at one time ?
What about Iran ?
What about Syria ?

Just how many do you want me to list before you open your eyes and realize that you guys are the enablers that the actual terrorists ( which I attemped to list, but there are too many ) play, to gain sympathy for their cause and 'punish' Israel, and Jews, worldwide.

I hear plenty of condemnations from you guys.
Either they are overreacting, being too over-reaching in their retaliatory attacks and killing too many civilians, or they are cowardly terrorists who strike with surgical attacks to kill actual terrorists using outdated  20 year old technology.
I have yet to hear a single suggestion on how to acheive peace so that both sides don't have to worry about attacks.

Maybe you think Jews should just disappear off the face of the Earth and that would solve the problem.
Another guy with a weird mustache thought the same way about 85 years ago.

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Conflating Jews with Israelis is an old trick of apologists for Israeli policy. I also note Godwin's Law is in operation. 

The war the IDF is operating in Gaza certainly looks a great deal like ethnic cleansing.

- They have herded almost the whole population up against the  border with Egypt, in the hope the Egyptians will let them in, having killed over 30,000 of them.

- They have tried to get the humanitarian operations of UNWRA stopped, by various means, including disinformation to smear it with complicity in the 7th Oct massacre.

- While this is going on, Israeli settlers have been given free rein to take over more land.

- There has been silence from the Israeli government about how Gaza should be governed once hostilities cease.

- And, far from getting serious about peace negotiations, Israel has actually assassinated the chief negotiator on the other side. 

So it is a fair inference that Israel seems to want the war to go on until the Palestinians in Gaza either give up and leave, or die. 

Edited September 19, 2024 by exchemist

[John Cuthber]

  On 9/18/2024 at 10:59 PM, joigus said:

It's not like there still are more than 100 innocent civilians kept as prisoners, raped, abused, undernourished, deprived of their medicines, under a death threat every single day since last October 7th, in Gaza; in some cases, executed for logistic expediency.

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Just checking.
Do you mean the prisoners held by criminals in Gaza, or do you mean the whole civilian population of Gaza which has been sealed off and strafed by the IDF?

"It's not like more than 80,000 Israelis have been displaced from their homes thanks to Hezbollah." 
Cough!

and so on.