Exploding Pagers Injure Hundreds in Lebanon

[TheVat]

Palestinians have distinct subgroups, so Gazans are not just homogeneous with Israeli Arabs.  That Israeli Arabs enjoy the rights of citizenship does not negate the repression of Gazans.  Gazans, and West Bankers, lack freedom and justice and free passage.  Is anyone here seriously going to try and give legitimacy to Likud Israel's actions because Israeli Arabs are doing fine?  Please.  

Edited September 21 by TheVat

[MigL]

41 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Palestinians have distinct subgroups, so Gazans are not just homogeneous with Israeli Arabs. 

No one said they were.
Israeli Arab citizens were being discussed within a specific context, which you chose to ignore, or simply haven't read preceding posts. Please ( do so ).

[TheVat]

6 hours ago, joigus said:

Members of the Knesset, bankers, entrepreneurs, etc. All of them Arabs. Almost none of them seem to be impelled to stab people to death on the street, blow themselves up, etc. Isn't that peculiar?

Why is that? Same ethnicity, same language, same traditions. Completely different behaviour.

 

Hope that clarified what I was responding to.

[MigL]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

Hope that clarified what I was responding to.

I apologize for my confusion.

Yet I don't see how your point negates Joigus' question.
Are you simply stating that Palestinians ( Gazans and West Bankers ) are not all bad; some are , but others are mostly innocent bystanders who get dragged into the violence ?
I would suggest that's just like Israeli citizens ( some of which are Palestinian ); a lot of them are innocent bystanders who get blown up in nightclubs, or raped/killed/kidnapped at music festivals, while others are raving idiots like Netanyahu.

And of course, both were elected to form the Government of their respective people; but while one Government doesn't give a sh*t about its people, the other is 'over-enthusiastically' attempting to make sure no more violence and kidnappings happen to theirs.
I leave it to you to decide which is which.

And I still don't understand how one side, trying to avoid killing innocent bystanders by specifically targettingHamas members using pagers, is a 'cowardly terrorist act'.
I should think it would be commended for not indiscriminately killing innocents, but I suppose people will jump at any excuse to label Israelis a terrorist group.

[TheVat]

About the time he was facing criminal indictments and losing popularity, one of the leaders decided he could rescue himself by setting up the conditions (including dropping border patrols in key areas) for provoking a war which would then require him as a Strong Defender and help turn the polls around.  I leave it to you to decide which leader that was.  

 

[StringJunky]

38 minutes ago, MigL said:

I apologize for my confusion.

Yet I don't see how your point negates Joigus' question.
Are you simply stating that Palestinians ( Gazans and West Bankers ) are not all bad; some are , but others are mostly innocent bystanders who get dragged into the violence ?
I would suggest that's just like Israeli citizens ( some of which are Palestinian ); a lot of them are innocent bystanders who get blown up in nightclubs, or raped/killed/kidnapped at music festivals, while others are raving idiots like Netanyahu.

And of course, both were elected to form the Government of their respective people; but while one Government doesn't give a sh*t about its people, the other is 'over-enthusiastically' attempting to make sure no more violence and kidnappings happen to theirs.
I leave it to you to decide which is which.

And I still don't understand how one side, trying to avoid killing innocent bystanders by specifically targettingHamas members using pagers, is a 'cowardly terrorist act'.
I should think it would be commended for not indiscriminately killing innocents, but I suppose people will jump at any excuse to label Israelis a terrorist group.

I can't believe you're a Netanyahu apologist. Him, Smotrich and Ben-Givr are my definition of evil.

[MigL]

I am not a Netanyahu apologist; I seriously dislike the man and wish the Israelis would get him out of office, but those types, like our own Trump, seem to have a considerable cult following, and a capacity for manipulating the electoral system to their advantage.
But I will not stoop to innuendos and conspiracy theories, such as starting a war, and having thousands of even your own people  killed, to avoid prosecution.
If there is actual proof of this, present it, otherwise Trump may decide to use the same tactic if re-elected.

And I do recall, several posts back, someone accusing the Israelis of killing Hamas' chief negotiator, who also happens to be a leader of Hamas ( a verified terrorist organization ) and being 'shocked' that they would do such a thing.
I guess if Putin went to the Ukraine to negotiate a territory for peace deal, the Ukrainians should treat him with respect ?

[dimreepr]

People only fight 'back' when they're on the wrong side of the cutlery, the people on the other side of the cutlery only fight to keep the cutlery in the 'right' hand's.

Meanwhile the cockroaches are getting fat, bc the human's can't share the food...

 

[joigus]

16 hours ago, MigL said:

Yet I don't see how your point negates Joigus' question.

Thanks for pointing this out. I asked a question that was never answered. What makes one guy become a victim of shootings and bombing, or your pants exploding, and the other the fortunate owner of a convenience store in Ramallah?

I must plead ignorance here. Let's hear the answers.

15 hours ago, TheVat said:

About the time he was facing criminal indictments and losing popularity, one of the leaders decided he could rescue himself by setting up the conditions (including dropping border patrols in key areas) for provoking a war which would then require him as a Strong Defender and help turn the polls around.  I leave it to you to decide which leader that was.  

 

This is a very good point. Has he taken advantage of the radicalisation of a big part of Israeli society? It is possible. It's hard to believe that he allowed October 7 to happen while being keenly aware of the dimensions of the upcoming slaughter. Maybe he didn't think it was going to be as big as it was. Maybe he miscalculated. Or maybe he's been a filthy Jewish supremacist since the get go. Maybe his only concern is holding on to power and he doesn't care how many lives are spent. I don't know. It doesn't seem likely to me, but it's not impossible.

I think it's more likely that he's increasingly been driven to do deals with that particular devil. I think it's possible that you're doomed to become devilish when rockets rain upon you for decades, when you are eagerly awaiting for the Olympics to start and you have to see your whole National team get slaughtered, when your brother's life has been taken when trying to rescue innocent civilians taken as hostages in Entebbe, etc. It might influence your views, I'm just saying.

A Spanish politician (Manuel Fraga) once said that politics makes very strange bed partners. Some people say it may have been Winston Churchill who first said it. In any case, that's what might be going on here.

The law of unintended consequences infiltrates all of this, IMO, and it's all too easy to demonise one part while lifting responsibility from the other. We just love binary logic.

[iNow]

18 minutes ago, joigus said:

Has he taken advantage of the radicalisation of a big part of Israeli society? It is possible.

He’s actively amplified it based on what we can see in his behavior and decision to ignore calls for different paths from his biggest allies. 

19 minutes ago, joigus said:

Maybe he miscalculated. Or maybe he's been a filthy Jewish supremacist since the get go.

Or maybe people go to extreme lengths to protect their self-interests and avoid letting go of power. 

[MigL]

18 minutes ago, joigus said:

This is a very good point. Has he taken advantage of the radicalisation of a big part of Israeli society? It is possible. It's hard to believe that he allowed October 7 to happen ...  It doesn't seem likely to me, but it's not impossible.

Even assuming we had definite proof that he did such a thing and allowed the massacre to happen, by reducing border patrols in the area and, in effect, left the door open, why would Hamas fire 5000 rockets into another location of Israel in order to divert IDF forces away from the area being targeted for the massacre of about 1200 people, the kidnapping of about 200, and the injuring of about 5000 music festival attendants?

"On the morning of October 7, 2023, Hamas led a simultaneous wave of assaults on Israeli civilian communities and military posts. The dawn attack began when Hamas launched over 5,000 rockets from Gaza into Israel, then used these strategic barrages as cover to breach the border. In this massive surprise onslaught on southern Israel"

From     Mapping the Massacres (oct7map.com)

Almost seems like they ( Hamas ) wanted the soldiers out of the way so they could specifically target civilians.
But also begs the question ...
If I leave my front door open and someone breaks in and kills my family members, am I the bad guy, or is it the ones who committed the murdering.
That seems a real stretch, to absolve Hamas of wrongdoing, and shift blame to Netanyahu, and also might make the argument for even more secure, impassable borders, never mind a so called 'concentration camp' fence.

[iNow]

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

seems like they ( Hamas ) wanted the soldiers out of the way so they could specifically target civilians.

Or to reduce losses from defensive countermeasures.

 

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

seems a real stretch, to absolve Hamas of wrongdoing

Nobody is doing that. Both can be valid in parallel (Hamas responsible and Bibi complicit in various ways)

[TheVat]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

That seems a real stretch, to absolve Hamas of wrongdoing

No one is doing this.  Again, as others note, it's not some binary thing.  Bibi can be corrupt and unscrupulous AND Hamas can be led by vicious and corrupt men who send their most zealous (sometimes sociopathic) soldiers to unleash terror on civilians.  Likud can have goals that are, functionally, ethnic cleansing AND Hamas can harbor those who have the same goals for Israel, going way beyond a reasoned two state solution.  What I am suggesting is that an extremist like Bibi gains leverage when his longterm oppression of Gaza/WB causes Hamas to morph towards its own most extreme version.  It gives him traction to pound the crap out of Gaza and lock down WB, and call it all self-defense.  And the US swallows this narrative whole.  

[MigL]

35 minutes ago, TheVat said:

No one is doing this.  Again, as others note, it's not some binary thing. 

Then why all the vitriol directed solely at Israel ?
Other than Joigus and I, not a single criticism has been directed at Hamas or Hezbollah ( or Iran, the puppet master ) in this thread.
If I can be accused of being a 'Netanyahu apologist' for pointing out that Israel is attempting to specifically target Hezbollah with the pager attack, and trying to remove an illegitimate ( no elections ) government ( Hamas ) whose sole purpose is the destruction of Israel, not to care for their people ( used as human shields, keep killing hostages and won't release them to get a cease-fire, etc ), surely then I can question who you guys are apologists for.

Edited September 22 by MigL

[iNow]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Other than Joigus and I, not a single criticism has been directed at Hamas or Hezbollah

Beyond being untrue, much of this is bc it’s taken as given that both are bad actors, whereas Israel is seen as having a moral high ground they’re failing to live up to. The response is also in obvious ways asymmetric and disproportionate. 

[MigL]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

The response is also in obvious ways asymmetric and disproportionate. 

And you don't think Hamas knew it would be ?
I do believe they were counting on it.

The deaths of their people is just a stepping stone to further their objective.
And instead of condemning them, some of us fall for the ruse, and condemn the consequences.

[CharonY]

On 9/21/2024 at 1:35 PM, MigL said:

And I still don't understand how one side, trying to avoid killing innocent bystanders by specifically targettingHamas members using pagers, is a 'cowardly terrorist act'.
I should think it would be commended for not indiscriminately killing innocents, but I suppose people will jump at any excuse to label Israelis a terrorist group.

I would be careful to assume that everyone critical of Israeli actions have the same stance. I think most (though likely not all) are alright with targeting terrorist leaders. While there is an ethical argument regarding killing in general, there is an underlying assumption that eliminating those threats will overall lead to less deaths and misery as a whole. The issue (to me at least) is how many collateral deaths are acceptable. 9/11 led to a proliferation of conflict in which almost any number of civilian deaths were justified as retaliation. This specific attack seems to be more targeted (hence my question) and while innocents were injured, it seems to be me at least less bad than bombing centers were Hamas are holed up with civilians. Sure, one can argue that Hamas is to blame (and they are) for using civilians as protection.  Conversely, I still there is a moral cost to make knowingly killing those civilians.

These are not simple issues where you can just point to some original sin to justify all associated costs. Each action (again, on either side) has a moral cost. And I do think that it is dangerous to justify, without limits, actions of any one side, just because the other is worse. Conversely, if one think that is justified, one has also to accept that without limits, these action will include the indiscriminate destruction of lives. We know that Hamas is fine with that. But I don't think that Israel should stoop down to that level. The reason why there are more expectations to Israel are, similar to the US, they are supposed to be the good guys.

I think interviews from the holocaust survivors provides much needed context, where they on the one hand see Israel as a refuge from persecution, yet at the same time see eerie similarities in the Palestinian plight.  There are a lot of articles, following events like 9/11, as well as in Europe after surge of antisemitic and anti-Muslim sentiments. Of course they are not uniform, but I do think that their experience and insights are critical on multiple levels e.g., https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2024/01/30/1227849885/a-holocaust-survivor-identifies-with-the-pain-of-both-sides-in-the-israel-hamas-

[iNow]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

you don't think Hamas knew it would be ?

I think many things, but wasn't commenting there about Hamas, their intentions, nor their understanding of response likelihoods before striking. 

4 hours ago, MigL said:

instead of condemning them

I condemn the actions of the 10/7 terrorists and those who keep attacking Israel and seeking its total destruction on other dates, too. 

I equally want innocent civilians across Gaza and elsewhere to stop paying the price for actions taken by leaders they didn't elect and don't support. Especially children, but not just the kids. 

I'm aiming for clarity on this reply. Hopefully I've achieved it. 

[MigL]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

I'm aiming for clarity on this reply. Hopefully I've achieved it. 

You have, but it wasn't needed.
Other posters on this thread have different positions, and it is them that I'm questioning.
( don't try to make everything about you, INow 😄 )

Edited September 22 by MigL

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

Other posters on this thread have different positions, and it is them that I'm questioning.

I strongly suspect their positions and your position overlap far more than you’re making it seem. 

[StringJunky]

The Zionist regime sees no boundaries. Mission creep? Where will it end?

Quote

An Israeli minister has called for the "Shia enemy population" of Lebanon to be kept away from the border of Israel, as his country's military steps up its attacks on its northern neighbour.

Writing on X, Minister of Diaspora Affairs Amichai Chikli said over the weekend that a buffer zone should be created in southern Lebanon.

He said that "even though it has a flag and even though it has political institutions", Lebanon "does not meet the definition of a country".

He also posted images of maps questioning the current borders of Syria and Lebanon, referencing the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916 that carved up the Levent into British and French spheres of influence.

"A renewed buffer zone, free of enemy population is the order of the hour and it is the right and most just thing to do both from a security point of view, both from a political and moral point of view," he added.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-minister-shia-enemy-population-away-borders?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Social_Traffic&utm_content=ap_w0zfxufab8

 

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

The Zionist regime sees no boundaries. Mission creep? Where will it end?

 

 

While there are true believers in this conflict, it does seem that from the top there are incentives to keep the conflict alive for as long as possible. It is well documented that Israel has supported Hamas at least since the 80s to undermine more secular forces in Palestine (https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/).  And obviously, the conflict is the only reasons for existence of Hamas. A win-win where everyone loses.

[TheVat]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

(from article Stringy posted) He said that "even though it has a flag and even though it has political institutions", Lebanon "does not meet the definition of a country".

One of those bits of rhetoric whose edge can be turned back on the speaker too easily.  And underscores the drift of Likud-dominated Israel away from being "the good guys."  Indeed, it's much like something Putin would say.  It's awkward for the US to be supporting this kind of mission creep with billions per year.

22 hours ago, CharonY said:

The reason why there are more expectations to Israel are, similar to the US, they are supposed to be the good guys.

The good guys with an extremely well funded military and the largest contingent of F-16s outside of the USAF.  Interesting how Palestinians often describe Hamas in the same way, because the average experience of Hamas, for most Palestinians, is civil service people who help them get a business license, or food ration cards, or all the other quotidian business of a government.  We see only the ruthless militants who hide in tunnels and come out to launch rockets or conduct murderous raids.  The complexity of the Palestinian relationship to Hamas is something that doesn't fit in a media sound bite.

[MigL]

6 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Mission creep?

How exactly.
The mission was always to get rid of all who wish to harm Israelis; no matter what country they're in.
Personally, I would give Iran an ultimatum; stop funding your proxy terrorist groups or you will suffer consequences. Israel has a fleet of LM F-35s, allowing them to strike Iran with impunity, as they have done before.

 

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

Israel has supported Hamas at least since the 80s

Yeah. And the US aided the Taliban in their struggle against the Soviets in the 80s.
Does that make them responsible for what the Taliban has morphed into ?
 

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

Interesting how Palestinians often describe Hamas in the same way,

A lot of Russians wold describe Putin's Government the same way, yrt he keeps sending their kids to die in the Ukraine.
A lot of North Koreans would say the same of their government.

What exactly is your point?

Maybe INow thinks I'm like a dog who won't let go of a bone, but when the discussion becomes one sided, I cannot let it go without presenting the other side.

Edited September 23 by MigL

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

Yeah. And the US aided the Taliban in their struggle against the Soviets in the 80s.
Does that make them responsible for what the Taliban has morphed into ?

To some degree, yes, but I would need to read up whether there is a direct to link to the current organization. I.e. how much of the support for the mujahedeen from the US, e.g. via operation cyclone, has influenced the subsequent formation of the Taliban (and one might also want to know whether the Taliban is a continuous entity, or whether there is some difference between the 90s Taliban and the current organization). IIRC there have been allegations that Bin Laden might have received support as part of the support for mujahedeen but I think the US rejected that notion. 

Otoh, the support from Netanyahu for Hamas just until shortly before the terror attack is well documented. I.e. there is a direct link to Hamas' capabilities and Israel's policies.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

Quote

Hamas has always publicly stated its commitment to eliminating the state of Israel. But each payout was a testament to the Israeli government’s view that Hamas was a low-level nuisance, and even a political asset.

As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state.
The official in the prime minister’s office said Mr. Netanyahu never made this statement. But the prime minister would articulate this idea to others over the years.

 

I remember vaguely another article describing that Hamas was functionally broke around 2012, and how eventually the money trickling in from Israel kept Hamas alive and safe from internal challenges.