1. Sub Quantum Echo Particles...(SQEP's) & Sub Quantum Echo Particle Kinetic Resonance Flux

[swansont]

1 minute ago, Imagine Everything said:

Hey Swansont, hope you're well.

Thanks for that. It makes a more sense now.

Can I ask, does it go all the way from K -> Z ? Or would Z live in the realm of undiscovered heavier elements?

I'm assuming without knowing better that these shells are filled the initial 2 & then they have 8 electrons before needing to have another shell for more electrons?

There are theoretically an infinite number of shells, but they tend to switch to numbers when you have excited states. In physics I rarely used this lettering convention, and in chemistry you’re often only worried about the occupation of the lowest states, but (as you note) we haven’t identified anything that goes that far. 

[Imagine Everything]

Thanks

What is the physics term for these shells called?

[Mordred]

Electron shell is the physics name 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_shell

[Imagine Everything]

Thanks Mordred

[studiot]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

You can call it either one, just like a helium nucleus is also known as an alpha particle

 

It is good to have another member of the staure of swansont making comments here.

 

5 hours ago, Imagine Everything said:

Sorry that wasn't as dumb as it might have sounded, I mean nucleus with the proton with the  electron orbiting. I imagine without an electron orbiting it would simply be a free proton?

Just a few points to add.

 

The electron has an electric charge of -1   and the proton has an electric charge of  +1

Hydrogen has one electron and one proton; helium has two electrons and two protons.

So the hydrogen ion (the atom with the electron removed) has a charge of +1

Helium has two electrons and two protons

The the helium ion (alpha particle) with two electrons removed has an electric charge has a chrage of +2

 

As swansont noted the hydrogen ion (which is very common in chemistry and responsible for acid - alkali reactions)
doesn't remain alone for very long before it is attached to something else.
In water for instance it attaches to the nearest water molecule to form what is called the hydroxonium ion.
This ion therefore has a +1 charge with a chemical symbol H₃O⁺

As regards shells.

There are two shell theories.

There is an electron shell theory, which is what you have been discussing.

And there is a nuclear (or proton) shell theory to explain how the nucleus fits together.

 

As regards the electron shell theory, it is probably best to take a simpler approach as in the attachments.

Chemical reactions occur between some of the electrons of the participating atoms and molecules.
The atoms are regarded as trying to get to a configuration of a nearby noble or inert gas.

This configuration is called the core configuration .

The extra electrons are the one or ones that participate in chemical reactions and chemical bonding.

But the wrinkle is that the 'shells' have a substructure, labelled s, p, d , e and f These are called orbitals.

and the energy levels of these do not follow in a nice sequence because we now know that the shape of these subshells and indeed the shells themselves are not arranged in nice expanding spherical shells.
Wiki has some nice pictures.
There is some ovelap.

 

Also I have been avoiding responding about Newton's cradle until you have finished wandering around the galaxy.

It is rather complicated but an excellent introduction to several ideas we have yet to look at, including what is called the coefficient of restitution.
Really the analysis depends upon this as to whether it is regarded a elastic or inelastic or something inbetween.

 

 

 

Edited November 15 by studiot

[Imagine Everything]

Thanks Studiot

In the pages you scanned, is the 'core' the nucleus?

And all the elements listed on the left are the elements that make the named cores?

Can you also tell me the signs used for boundary condition, state & quantum tunneling please.

 

Edited November 15 by Imagine Everything

[studiot]

18 minutes ago, Imagine Everything said:

Thanks Studiot

In the pages you scanned, is the 'core' the nucleus?

And all the elements listed on the left are the elements that make the named cores?

 

No, most definitely not.

The nucleus is about protons (and neutrons)

Ions, chemical reactions and bonding is about electrons.

The nuclear structure does not change in the formation of ions or in other chemical reactions or or chemical bonding.

 

The tables I posted are about the electron structure.

 

The core is the electron structure of the inert gas. See the title of the table.

Remember we mentioned these gases in a more simple way some posts back.

So it works like this.

Look at the top of the first table to the first 'block'

There are just two elements in the 1s shell  hydrogen and helium.

This shell has only room for 2 electrons.

We have already said that hydrogen has 1,  and helium has 2 electrons.

Helium is the first inert gas.

The second block is Lithium (Li) to Neon (Ne)

Neon is the second inert gas and note the core is labelled Helium core.

That means that these 8 elements (yes including the inert neon) have a full 1 shell plus extra electrons in the 2 shell, but no electrons in 3 shell.

Repeat Neon has a full 2 shell but not electrons in the 3 shell.

The next block - sodium (Na) to Argon (Ar) works the same way populating the 3 shell (but not fully since there is now another subshell labelled 3d).
This block is labelled to have a neon core

 

Does this help ?

 

[Imagine Everything]

7 minutes ago, studiot said:

Does this help ?

 

Probably, I will re read it a few times to try and understand it better.

I miss stuff sometimes, (can't see the woods for the trees as it were)  science  can be a quite mystifying & immensely confusing lol

I'm also a bit confused as to why it goes 1s, 2s, then 2p, 3s, 3p etc

Why isn't it all s's? Have I missed or not seen something somewhere?

Edited November 15 by Imagine Everything

[studiot]

41 minutes ago, Imagine Everything said:

Probably, I will re read it a few times to try and understand it better.

I miss stuff sometimes, (can't see the woods for the trees as it were)  science  can be a quite mystifying & immensely confusing lol

I'm also a bit confused as to why it goes 1s, 2s, then 2p, 3s, 3p etc

Why isn't it all s's? Have I missed or not seen something somewhere?

It's good that you are puzzling it.

That is a step towards working a bit out for yourself which you have now done a couple of times.

I try to leave some easy bit like that but I never object to you asking like this if you need more.

 

The first shell (no 1) has only s one 's' subshell; no p, d e or f 

The second shell (no 2) has one 's' subshell and actually 3 'p' subshells; no d e or f

The third shell (no3) has one s subshell, 3 'p' subshells and 5 'd' subshells; no e or f

 

If you look at the left hand page -  fig 16  - this is not only an energy diagram of the relative energies of these subshells it also shows you how many there are in each main shell (count the circles).

 

The text also describes the standard method on writing these., where it syas 1s²2s² 2p⁶ etc;  the superscript is the number of electrons in the subshell  eg there are 6 electrons in the 3 number p subshells in each main shell.

Sorry I don't have time for pictures now as to how these numbers arise, other than to say it is because of the shape of the subshells, perhaps next time.

Edited November 15 by studiot

[Imagine Everything]

2 hours ago, studiot said:

Sorry I don't have time for pictures now as to how these numbers arise, other than to say it is because of the shape of the subshells, perhaps next time.

This made me smile, thanks Studiot, I think I kind of understand the 1s2, 2s2, 3s2 (sorry for the lazy writing there)..still learning this part but I'm sorry, why isn't called 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s..I don't understand the named shell sequence. My head is looking for the pattern but doesn't understand it.

If s means shell , what does p mean  And e, f, d etc

I understand the orbital part i think just not why it is called p or e or d or f.

Atm my head is thinking that this is like saying a numerical count (not science related) 1, 2, 3, 4 r, s, t, u, 7, 8, 9, 10 instead of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

 

[studiot]

5 hours ago, Imagine Everything said:

This made me smile, thanks Studiot, I think I kind of understand the 1s2, 2s2, 3s2 (sorry for the lazy writing there)..still learning this part but I'm sorry, why isn't called 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s..I don't understand the named shell sequence. My head is looking for the pattern but doesn't understand it.

If s means shell , what does p mean  And e, f, d etc

I understand the orbital part i think just not why it is called p or e or d or f.

Atm my head is thinking that this is like saying a numerical count (not science related) 1, 2, 3, 4 r, s, t, u, 7, 8, 9, 10 instead of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

 

This site draws better pictures than I do and answers a few more questions as well.

 

https://byjus.com/chemistry/shapes-of-orbitals/

[Imagine Everything]

7 hours ago, studiot said:

This site draws better pictures than I do and answers a few more questions as well.

 

https://byjus.com/chemistry/shapes-of-orbitals/

Thank you

 

Q6

What does P orbital stand for?

The s, p, d, and f, respectively stand for sharp, primary, diffuse and fundamental. The letters and words refer to the visual impression left by the spectral lines’ fine structure that occurs because of the first relativistic corrections, particularly the spin-orbital interaction.

Now it makes sense though I also now have more orbital understanding to do.

 

Can nucleai and their electrons be seen as states and if so, does that mean they each also have their own boundary conditions?

Can nucleons be seen as states with boundary conditions of their own?

 

Edited November 16 by Imagine Everything

[Mordred]

A state can be any set of variables or functions that describe a system but must apply only to the system without any previous history such as  path taken previous temperature, energy level etc

A state will evolve in time but it is set at whatever moment in time it's being examined at.

It can be any particle or combination of particles including atoms or any field treatment. 

Now that automatically has a boundary condition that boundary being time dependent (the state condition depends on how evolves over time)

Whatever other boundary conditions depends on what the state system is describing by those variables or math functions.

Mathematically these are constraints on the valid ranges the mathematics of the state are accurate. 

Simple example a state is like a math set but with equations and variables etc. So say the equation only is accurate for a given range

(3,4,5,,6) only that is a constrained set hence has a boundary condition. However if no additional constraint range can be infinite (,except time dependency)

In thermodynamics and physics it's useful to define closed states and  conserved states. A conserved system must be closed. Studiot is more practiced at classical thermodynamic systems and that's one of the better stepping stones to learning states as well as thermodynamics.

As it teaches the same requirements for what is needed for a state to be conserved 

We do however standardized symbology to go with states

\(|\vec{a}\rangle\) is initial vector field a (ket)

\(\langle \vec{a}|\) is after state vector a (bra)

The above is called Dirac Bra-ket notation you have a transpose (an operand or function between the bra and ket

\[\lange \vec{a}|transpose|\rangle|]

Now that's a quick and dirty on bra-ket notation 

Common states

\(|\phi\rangle\)  = scalar field ie magnitude only 

(\|\psi\rangle\) is often a complex conjugate field such as a spinor field

 

Edited November 16 by Mordred

[Imagine Everything]

Thanks Mordred

 

I read somewhere that someone (Einstein was it?) wondered if an atom worked similar to a solar sytem. Sorry I can't remember exactly, anyway I'm looking more intensely now at these orbits, electron shells, tetraquarks, quarks and stuff and can't help but wonder if our universe is merely a giant version of all these things that exist at their tiniest form.

What if it was seen universally instead of locally (solar system)

Expansion causes expansion causes expansion as it were. I'm not just thinking about universe expansion but the expansion of everything within and including the universe.

Hmm...What I think I'm trying to say is that hyperthetically speaking, maybe our solar mass is just a huge electron?, maybe DM is just a huge expanse of the space between the electron and the nucleus?, maybe the planets or such like are merely huge protons or similar?, I don't know nearly enough to explain this properly but does that make any sort of sense?

Like maybe the things that are seemingly created, are not neccessarily what they appear to be, they are just another building block on the road to recreating the small into the giant sizes of themselves?

 

I also saw on a science programme that we should theoretically have binary solar masses but for some reason we don't.

Wouldn't that be the equivalent of the first 1s or K shell? Though I don't know what the nucleus would be in that scenario.

This could also be the answer? to the question: What is the point of the universe?

The answer could be there is no point, it just is what it is , just self replicating and replicating and replicating...

hmm...no doubt one of my more zanier imaginations

 

Edited November 16 by Imagine Everything

[Mordred]

No problem we cross posted as I was adding details to my last post.

Your referring to the orbitals in the old Bohr model of the atom that's been replaced by the electron shell layout where electrons form probability clouds such as those subshell images on the previous wiki-link.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_shell

See the dumbbell arrangements etc in the image  in that link the old orbit like a solar image isnt accurate the shell system is 

 

Edited November 16 by Mordred

[Imagine Everything]

57 minutes ago, Mordred said:

No problem we cross posted as I was adding details to my last post.

Your referring to the orbitals in the old Bohr model of the atom that's been replaced by the electron shell layout where electrons form probability clouds such as those subshell images on the previous wiki-link.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_shell

See the dumbbell arrangements etc in the image  in that link the old orbit like a solar image isnt accurate the shell system is 

 

Thanks

[Imagine Everything]

I'm getting to understand the shells a bit better now, hopefully I'll remember

 

If K(1s) L(2s,2p) M(3s,3p,3f) and so on have a math definite of 2n². (did I say that correctly?)

Is it also true in reverse not with electrons but with quarks?

It's very confusing and seemingly very busy in these shells and their orbits.

So when you talk of half spin, does that literally mean an electron in a subshell is only orbiting half of it's orbit?

Also, I'm a little confused by the s orbital

Why doesn't it also have w? going from the top left diagonal to the bottom right diagonal?

This scientist is talkign about the octet rule and says that it usually means the outermost shell (the electron shell?) can have a maximum of 8 electrons, but the diagram shows 2 electrons on the outermost shell when the subshell m can have up to 18.

Does this mean that even if the 2n² applies that even if a subshell can have up to 18+ electrons, it can't if it is the outermost shell.

Am I right in calling the outermost shell the electron shell?

Do isotopes only go downwards by neutrons 6/8 6/6 6/4 for example (Pro/Neu)

Edited November 17 by Imagine Everything

[Mordred]

On this I would prefer either Studiot or Swansont reply my knowledge on atoms from a chemistry point of view is too rusty. Typically when I deal with atoms it's more in dealing with its ionization and the related mathematics in so far as spectographic readings and related  QM/QFT equations which your not ready for 

Not that I'm ignoring you I just think you would served by others more familiar particularly on the more classical examinations.

However that being said here is a couple of details. The number of protons of the nucleus determines the number of electrons for a neutral atom. However each shell can only contain a maximum number of electrons Following your \(2n^2\) rule. I will do this in a format I'm more familiar with in terms of how a spectroscopist would examine the atom.

Each n level is called a shell, and historically, observational spectroscopists named the n = 1 level the K shell, the n = 2 level the L shell, the n = 3 level the M shell, the n = 4 level the N shell, etc.

n is the principle quantum number

l is the angular momentum

m is the magnetic quantum number

For a given shell, n, each angular momentum state, l, is called a subshell.

The subshells are also described by spectroscopic notation,

“s” for l = 0, “p” for l = 1, ”d” for l = 2, and “f” for l = 3. These respectively stand for “sharp”, “principle”, “diffuse”, and “fundamental”.

A given subshell, nl, for example n = 1 with l = 0, is denoted “1s”. For n = 2 and l = 1, the state is denoted “2p”. The magnetic quantum number is not included in the spectroscopic notation. As an example, there is only a single 1s state (m = 0) and there are three 2p states (m = −1, 0, +1).

the applies as well for the Schrodinger model of the atom.

So the shells themselves are denoted by the principle quantum number each shell can have subshells which include the angular  momentum quantum number "l"

the outer shell can have fewer than the maximum by the 2n^2 rule if the total number of electrons equals the number of protons.

When ionization occurs there is a transition of the electron to change shells or lose an electron leaving fewer electrons than the number of protons.

That atom is now ionized.

The spin of a particle is intrinsic and do not change due to its location or atomic configuration.

electrons always have spin + or -1/2.

bosons typically always have spin 1 with the exception of Higgs boson spin 0 or theoretical graviton spin 2 ( never confirmed or observed|

quarks will have a spin value of some multiple of 1/3 ie 2/3 etc.

Those do not change they are intrinsic to  those particles.. but DO not think of quantum spin as a spinning ball that is wrong Spin is a complex conjugate of the principle quantum numbers so for example spin 1/2 requires a 720 degree rotation to return to its original state. Where as a ball only requires 360 degrees for example..

I don't know if your ready for this yet but under the Schrodinger model the spin orbit couplings  which gives a new quantum number J.  where J=(S+L). has the form where s=1/2 so J will be multiples of 1/2 ie 3/2 for example BUT DO NOT CONFUSE J with spin.

Different quantum number

\[g_n=\sum^{n-1}_{L=0}(2s+1)(2L+1)=2n^2\]

the 2n^2 relation is from the old Bohr or Rutherford model of the atom. The above equation applies for the Schrodinger atom model. Now this goes a bit more detailed under what is called the Dirac model.

in The Dirac model we have  an expansion of quantum numbers.

n=principle

L= angular momentum

J= total angular momentum (also called the Orbital azimuthal angular momentum ie the Z axis)

\(m_L\) is the orbital magnetic 

\(m_J\) is the total magnetic

\(m_s\) is the spin.

Hope that helps.

For other readers all the above will relate to an energy diagram called a Grotian diagram

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotrian_diagram

this takes all the above numbers of the Dirac model and equates the relevant energy terms into a diagram. This diagram also shows the transitions and transition levels.

If you study Grotian diagrams you will hit a new term called doublet and singlets.

Doublet

Lyman Doublets=\(\begin{cases}nP_{1/2}-1S_{1/2}\\nP_{3/2}-1S_{1/2}\end{cases}\) this is mainly for the Grotian diagrams so don't worry about it for now. Most people that don't do Spectrograph's won't know this detail. However in regards to Grotian diagrams they are directly involved in the selection rules

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_rule

as you can see from that link that takes a considerable amount of study to fully understand.

example the above applies to 

Raman series

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raman_spectroscopy

and Balmer series

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balmer_series

and Lyman series

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyman_series

to name a FEW there a lot of different series depending on the atoms involved

It is the above that allows us to use Spectrograph's to determine the composition of stellar objects such as Stars, plasma, atoms,  molecules etc as well as their electron configuration.

Preliminary to the above being Moseley's Law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moseley's_law

which required corrections from the Rutherford model to the Schrodinger model. It is one of the major pieces of evidence that the Bohr/Rutherford model was wrong.

Moseley's Law uses the Bragg equation from Chemistry but historically Mosely was also involved in the layout of the periodic table as a good portion of his work led to the modern day periodic table layout. Previous To Moseley's Periodic table atoms were arranged according to atomic mass (Mendeleev's Periodic table)

side note for the x ray scatterings you also need Braggs law

LOL welcome to a crash course on how we know atomic structure, via spectrographic  studies as well as how the Modern day periodic table got developed

 

Edited November 19 by Mordred

[Imagine Everything]

7 hours ago, Mordred said:

On this I would prefer either Studiot or Swansont reply my knowledge on atoms from a chemistry point of view is too rusty. Typically when I deal with atoms it's more in dealing with its ionization and the related mathematics in so far as spectographic readings and related  QM/QFT equations which your not ready for 

Not that I'm ignoring you I just think you would served by others more familiar particularly on the more classical examinations.

However that being said here is a couple of details. The number of protons of the nucleus determines the number of electrons for a neutral atom. However each shell can only contain a maximum number of electrons Following your 2n2 rule. I will do this in a format I'm more familiar with in terms of how a spectroscopist would examine the atom.

Each n level is called a shell, and historically, observational spectroscopists named the n = 1 level the K shell, the n = 2 level the L shell, the n = 3 level the M shell, the n = 4 level the N shell, etc.

n is the principle quantum number

l is the angular momentum

m is the magnetic quantum number

For a given shell, n, each angular momentum state, l, is called a subshell.

The subshells are also described by spectroscopic notation,

“s” for l = 0, “p” for l = 1, ”d” for l = 2, and “f” for l = 3. These respectively stand for “sharp”, “principle”, “diffuse”, and “fundamental”.

A given subshell, nl, for example n = 1 with l = 0, is denoted “1s”. For n = 2 and l = 1, the state is denoted “2p”. The magnetic quantum number is not included in the spectroscopic notation. As an example, there is only a single 1s state (m = 0) and there are three 2p states (m = −1, 0, +1).

the applies as well for the Schrodinger model of the atom.

So the shells themselves are denoted by the principle quantum number each shell can have subshells which include the angular  momentum quantum number "l"

the outer shell can have fewer than the maximum by the 2n^2 rule if the total number of electrons equals the number of protons.

When ionization occurs there is a transition of the electron to change shells or lose an electron leaving fewer electrons than the number of protons.

That atom is now ionized.

The spin of a particle is intrinsic and do not change due to its location or atomic configuration.

electrons always have spin + or -1/2.

bosons typically always have spin 1 with the exception of Higgs boson spin 0 or theoretical graviton spin 2 ( never confirmed or observed|

quarks will have a spin value of some multiple of 1/3 ie 2/3 etc.

Those do not change they are intrinsic to  those particles.. but DO not think of quantum spin as a spinning ball that is wrong Spin is a complex conjugate of the principle quantum numbers so for example spin 1/2 requires a 720 degree rotation to return to its original state. Where as a ball only requires 360 degrees for example..

I don't know if your ready for this yet but under the Schrodinger model the spin orbit couplings  which gives a new quantum number J.  where J=(S+L). has the form where s=1/2 so J will be multiples of 1/2 ie 3/2 for example BUT DO NOT CONFUSE J with spin.

Different quantum number

 

gn=∑L=0n−1(2s+1)(2L+1)=2n2

 

the 2n^2 relation is from the old Bohr or Rutherford model of the atom. The above equation applies for the Schrodinger atom model. Now this goes a bit more detailed under what is called the Dirac model.

in The Dirac model we have  an expansion of quantum numbers.

n=principle

L= angular momentum

J= total angular momentum (also called the Orbital azimuthal angular momentum ie the Z axis)

mL is the orbital magnetic 

mJ is the total magnetic

ms is the spin.

Hope that helps.

For other readers all the above will relate to an energy diagram called a Grotian diagram

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotrian_diagram

this takes all the above numbers of the Dirac model and equates the relevant energy terms into a diagram. This diagram also shows the transitions and transition levels.

If you study Grotian diagrams you will hit a new term called doublet and singlets.

Doublet

Lyman Doublets={nP1/2−1S1/2nP3/2−1S1/2 this is mainly for the Grotian diagrams so don't worry about it for now. Most people that don't do Spectrograph's won't know this detail. However in regards to Grotian diagrams they are directly involved in the selection rules

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_rule

as you can see from that link that takes a considerable amount of study to fully understand.

example the above applies to 

Raman series

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raman_spectroscopy

and Balmer series

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balmer_series

and Lyman series

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyman_series

to name a FEW there a lot of different series depending on the atoms involved

It is the above that allows us to use Spectrograph's to determine the composition of stellar objects such as Stars, plasma, atoms,  molecules etc as well as their electron configuration.

Preliminary to the above being Moseley's Law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moseley's_law

which required corrections from the Rutherford model to the Schrodinger model. It is one of the major pieces of evidence that the Bohr/Rutherford model was wrong.

Moseley's Law uses the Bragg equation from Chemistry but historically Mosely was also involved in the layout of the periodic table as a good portion of his work led to the modern day periodic table layout. Previous To Moseley's Periodic table atoms were arranged according to atomic mass (Mendeleev's Periodic table)

side note for the x ray scatterings you also need Braggs law

LOL welcome to a crash course on how we know atomic structure, via spectrographic  studies as well as how the Modern day periodic table got developed

 

Thanks for your reply as always Mordred and the links,

Didn't mean to stray in chemistry really, just watching Khan Academy lectures on atoms, electrons, shells, unified atomic mass unit, isotopes and isobars so far. And then re watching them.

You are indeed right, there is an awful lot I don't understand however there is also some which I now do understand, a bit anyway.

And if I'm honest, it looks like I could spend a year or more? just trying to get to grips with electrons, shells, subshells, spins, the difference/equivilence between chemistry and physics at this level.

Good news is that I do have time to do this, so with time I hope to understand a lot more of this and perhaps even put together an equasion of my own at some point trying to explain what I see in this 3rd state idea.

(I still haven't come across anything that tells me it can't work yet, though it has come close a couple of times)

I do know a few symbols now & what they represent & mean, though I am yet to be knowledgable enough to put them together.

But hey, 3 months ago, I knew nothing. I just need to study it again & again & again & again.

Thank you, all of you.

 

 

 

[studiot]

8 hours ago, Mordred said:

When ionization occurs there is a transition of the electron to change shells or lose an electron leaving fewer electrons than the number of protons.

There is a wealth of good useful information in your post, but I think you need to reconsider this bit.

 

An ion is formed by the addition to or subtraction of one or more electrons from a neutral atom or another ion.

This is more than just jumping from shell to shell this is a complete dissociation from or association into the atom or of the electrons.

The moving elctron can be free or can be part of another atom or ion before the ionisation.

Note since you can add to or subtract electrons from ions as well as atoms you can in fact start with a neutral atom and end with an ion or the other way round you can start with an ion and end with a neutral atom.

 

Shell to shell transitions result on the absorption or emission of a photon of EM radiation.

[Mordred]

6 hours ago, studiot said:

There is a wealth of good useful information in your post, but I think you need to reconsider this bit.

 

An ion is formed by the addition to or subtraction of one or more electrons from a neutral atom or another ion.

This is more than just jumping from shell to shell this is a complete dissociation from or association into the atom or of the electrons.

The moving elctron can be free or can be part of another atom or ion before the ionisation.

Note since you can add to or subtract electrons from ions as well as atoms you can in fact start with a neutral atom and end with an ion or the other way round you can start with an ion and end with a neutral atom.

 

Shell to shell transitions result on the absorption or emission of a photon of EM radiation.

Agreed with the above its one of the reasons it's often easier to learn more from the classical treatment angles than it is from the physics side such as via Shrodinger and Hartree-Fock or via Spectrography.

Lol molecular ionization spectography is incredibly tricky it's one side of it that I am extremely out of practice on lmao. It's also something I rarely if ever deal with.

I can't recall the last time I ever dealt with molecules in  chemistry or physics lol. That's where you or others would be far suited than myself to describe. +1 for that reminder though lol

Edited November 19 by Mordred

[Imagine Everything]

On 11/15/2024 at 1:47 PM, studiot said:

Hydrogen has one electron and one proton; helium has two electrons and two protons.

So the hydrogen ion (the atom with the electron removed) has a charge of +1

I'm a little hmm lost perhaps or it's a little back to front in my head atm....

H is 1P/1E but if it lost the electron then doesn't that just become a free P?

Or are free protons described as H ions?

I see a lot of double descriptions for things as I learn stuff.

6 hours ago, studiot said:

Shell to shell transitions result on the absorption or emission of a photon of EM radiation.

Is this a chemistry thing? as in the valance electrons (I assume it would be the outer shell that was changed electron speaking) and whichever way it happened, emmission or absorbtion, attaracted by a like minded atom 40ų to 40ų (is that the right symbol for amu?) for instance, wouldn't that mean the electron shell it left or came to would then be unstable and become an isotope?

Or have I got it a bit back to front?

Is an ion the loss or gain of an electron and an isotope is the loss or gain of a neutron?

15 hours ago, Mordred said:

Each n level is called a shell, and historically, observational spectroscopists named the n = 1 level the K shell, the n = 2 level the L shell, the n = 3 level the M shell, the n = 4 level the N shell, etc.

n is the principle quantum number

l is the angular momentum

m is the magnetic quantum number

For a given shell, n, each angular momentum state, l, is called a subshell.

So K,L,M,N is the physics term. 1,s, 2s, 3s, is the chemistry term?

And reading what you wrote here, does each shell behave in this manner and if so going forward, does each subshell have angular momentum and is angular momentum the same as an orbit, just a different name for orbit?

15 hours ago, Mordred said:

gn=∑L=0n−1(2s+1)(2L+1)=2n2

And hmm, I'm going to try ask a question about this please.

The bracketed equasions? is that the chemistry and physics meaning of the same subshell?

And have you called that 2L because it goes like this...1K, 2L, 3M, 4N....?

And would that also end up as 1Ks, 2Ls, 2Lp, 3Ms, 3Mp, 3Md etc or have I got this all mixed up trying to make sense of it?

19 minutes ago, Imagine Everything said:

gn=∑L=0n−1

Could you please explain in words the meaning of these symbols.

Im going to take a guess that the first n in gn is the subshell.

But Ik what the g is or the next bit, oh and why is the next bit in brackets? Is that just to illustrate to shell types somehow?

[studiot]

4 hours ago, Imagine Everything said:

I'm a little hmm lost perhaps or it's a little back to front in my head atm....

H is 1P/1E but if it lost the electron then doesn't that just become a free P?

Or are free protons described as H ions?

I see a lot of double descriptions for things as I learn stuff.

Is this a chemistry thing? as in the valance electrons (I assume it would be the outer shell that was changed electron speaking) and whichever way it happened, emmission or absorbtion, attaracted by a like minded atom 40ų to 40ų (is that the right symbol for amu?) for instance, wouldn't that mean the electron shell it left or came to would then be unstable and become an isotope?

Or have I got it a bit back to front?

Is an ion the loss or gain of an electron and an isotope is the loss or gain of a neutron?

So K,L,M,N is the physics term. 1,s, 2s, 3s, is the chemistry term?

And reading what you wrote here, does each shell behave in this manner and if so going forward, does each subshell have angular momentum and is angular momentum the same as an orbit, just a different name for orbit?

And hmm, I'm going to try ask a question about this please.

The bracketed equasions? is that the chemistry and physics meaning of the same subshell?

And have you called that 2L because it goes like this...1K, 2L, 3M, 4N....?

And would that also end up as 1Ks, 2Ls, 2Lp, 3Ms, 3Mp, 3Md etc or have I got this all mixed up trying to make sense of it?

Could you please explain in words the meaning of these symbols.

Im going to take a guess that the first n in gn is the subshell.

But Ik what the g is or the next bit, oh and why is the next bit in brackets? Is that just to illustrate to shell types somehow?

 

Like many things in science,  shells and quantum theory was not discovered all at once.

 

Mordred has already noted that the original information came in the late 19th / early 20th century when they discovered spectroscopic lines.
This means that close examination of the light given off by heated elements appeared as several  series of fine lines called spectral lines. The lines were closely related as to colour, which means wavelength or frequency of the light.

In effect a frequency spectrum appeared rather like a modern barcode.

An early worker of this was Barkla who named these as K L M N etc. Note Barkla worked with X rays not visible light and he originally named the spectral series A and B.

 

Quote

Why do the electron shells begin being named with K, L, M, N, and not with A, B, C?

The names of the electron shells come from a fellow named Charles G. Barkla, a spectroscopist who studied the X-rays that are emitted by atoms when they are hit with high energy electrons. He noticed that atoms appeared to emit two types of X-rays. The two types of X-rays differed in energy and Barkla originally called the higher energy X-ray type A and the lower energy X-ray type B. He later renamed these two types K and L since he realized that the highest energy X-rays produced in his experiments might not be the highest energy X-ray possible. He wanted to make certain that there was room to add more discoveries without ending up with an alphabetical list of X-rays whose energies were mixed up.

As it turns out, the K type X-ray is the highest energy X-ray an atom can emit. It is produced when an electron in the innermost shell is knocked free and then recaptured. This innermost shell is now called the K-shell, after the label used for the X-ray. Barkla won the 1917 Nobel Prize for Physics for this work.

https://education.jlab.org/qa/historyele_02.html

 

Neils Bohr originally worked with only the A and B later renamed K and L in his theory.

Further work produced the Schrodinger wave equation and its solutions employing 3 quantum numbers. A fourth quantum number (spin) was introduced in by Ulenbeck and Goudschmidt.
The quantum numbers were labelled with small letters  n , l , m and s  (see attachment)
Pauli introduced his exclusion principle that in one atom no two electrons can have the same set of quantum numbers

Quantum numbers are simple integers or halves and there is a relationship between them which limits possible values.

These possible values combined with the Pauli exclusion limit the total number of electrons in a shell.

The K L M N naming fell out of fashion because the  quantum numbers are actually used in calculations so

the principal quantum number gives the shell number

K shell corresponds to the principal quantum number, n being 1

L shell corresponds to the principal quantum number, n being 2

K shell corresponds to the principal quantum number, n being 3

etc

Now having shell 1, shell 2, shell 3 etc

The subshells were distinguished further by using lower case letters

s subshell corresponds to the secondary quantum number, l being 0

p subshell corresponds to the secondary quantum number, l being 1

d subshell corresponds to the secondary quantum number being 2

 

Further refinements came with the change of name from orbits or shells to orbitals.

 

Here are some more easily readable extracts from the book that first took me to university in 1968.

Note carefully page 32 which lists possible sublevels as a result of the pauli principle.

 

[Mordred]

I wouldn't worry too much about this formula but to answer you questions

\[g_n=\sum^{n-1}_{L=0}(2s+1)(2L+1)=2n^2\]

\(g_n\) is the maximum number of electrons states for the shell where n is just a shell identifier ie n=1 for shell 1. If its shell two then n=2. 

\(\sum\) is a summation the lower value is the minimal value in this case its stating no angular momentum L  the n-1 is the upper bound and this gets rather complex as the n-1 indicates its a telescoping series under Calculus. Which is  term that is best left for much later.

However wiki shows an example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summation

 

Edited November 20 by Mordred

[Imagine Everything]

7 hours ago, Mordred said:

I wouldn't worry too much about this formula but to answer you questions

 

gn=∑L=0n−1(2s+1)(2L+1)=2n2

 

gn is the maximum number of electrons states for the shell where n is just a shell identifier ie n=1 for shell 1. If its shell two then n=2. 

∑ is a summation the lower value is the minimal value in this case its stating no angular momentum L  the n-1 is the upper bound and this gets rather complex as the n-1 indicates its a telescoping series under Calculus. Which is  term that is best left for much later.

However wiki shows an example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summation

 

Thanks as always, just trying to see if I can make any sense of things like this yet.

Appreciate it.

 

Thanks also Studiot, I'll have a read when I have more time later on.

Have a good day.

Edited November 20 by Imagine Everything