Where does atheist morality come from?

[swansont]

12 minutes ago, Night FM said:

I'd argue that there are plenty of arguments in the Bible against slavery, so if some are cherry-picking parts of it while ignoring the whole then that's on them.

And yet slavery was supported by Bible followers. 

If that book can be used to support and deny slavery, just think what other things it can be used to support or deny, based on the wants of the individual? How can it be a moral guide if that’s possible?

[Night FM]

20 minutes ago, swansont said:

And yet slavery was supported by Bible followers. 

If that book can be used to support and deny slavery, just think what other things it can be used to support or deny, based on the wants of the individual? How can it be a moral guide if that’s possible?

Not sure. How can evolution be used to support Nazism and social Darwinism?

[iNow]

5 hours ago, Night FM said:

How can evolution be used to support Nazism and social Darwinism?

Evolution is a mechanism by which genes get selected. It is not being posited as a source of morality (though I did previously provide you with a potential mechanism that morality gets selected for in local contexts). 

Evolution happens. It is true. It is established fact. The Bible is a collection of allegories. You may as well be comparing bananas and staplers. 

6 hours ago, Night FM said:

That's basically a conspiracy theory.

Suggesting that the intent behind rules being propagated by religions is rather often a desire for power and control is most decidedly NOT a conspiracy theory. 

[exchemist]

13 hours ago, Night FM said:

 

There's nothing within Christianity or the Bible that says similar principles can't exist elsewhere. If anything the ubiquitous of them argues in favor of them being universal. Likewise, the Bible says that sin is "common to man", so I'd argue this further substantiates the idea of universal principles of right and wrong behavior.

And while I'm not an expert on Buddhism, whether or not it specifically invokes a God, it more or less argues in favor of ultimate truths about how people should or shouldn't behave.

Right, but there are examples of social groups (e.x. drug cartels) who have little to no respect for these rules, and this type of behavior would be easier to justify by holding a purely materialist worldview. Your argument seems to hinge on the idea that "most people don't" commit extremely atrocious crimes, but, in theory, they could justify doing so much easier from a particular worldview.

OK but then I'm not sure what you are now arguing. If you accept there are "universal principles" that Mankind tends to observe regardless of religion then they would also tend to be observed by those, such as Buddhists or atheists, who do not believe in a God or gods.  

To your second point, a drug cartel is not really a "social group".  However there is indeed evidence that religion has a role to play in reducing crime. This 2014 study for instance, showed a significant beneficial effect of religion on youth crime: https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/41333/chapter/352355230?login=false

I quote the 1st para of the Conclusion:

This chapter provides evidence that religious influences are consequential in crime reduction. The vast majority of studies reviewed document the importance of religious influences in protecting youth from harmful outcomes as well as promoting beneficial and prosocial outcomes. The beneficial relationship between religion and crime reduction is not simply a function of religion’s constraining function or what it discourages (e.g., opposing drug use or delinquent behavior) but also a matter of what it encourages (e.g., promoting prosocial behaviors).

 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:36 AM by exchemist

[MSC]

On 10/10/2024 at 9:02 PM, iNow said:

It doesn’t need to since norms and mores are context / group dependent.

Exactly; secular ethical norms can be derived from biology, physiology and physics. Commonalities within the context of our existence as living beings on a wacky rock hurtling through space that could fly into another rock and end it all at any point. 

10 hours ago, iNow said:

Suggesting that the intent behind rules being propagated by religions is rather often a desire for power and control is most decidedly NOT a conspiracy theory. 

That's literally humans MO in everything they do most of the time so definitely not a conspiracy theory imo. 

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

This chapter provides evidence that religious influences are consequential in crime reduction. The vast majority of studies reviewed document the importance of religious influences in protecting youth from harmful outcomes as well as promoting beneficial and prosocial outcomes. The beneficial relationship between religion and crime reduction is not simply a function of religion’s constraining function or what it discourages (e.g., opposing drug use or delinquent behavior) but also a matter of what it encourages (e.g., promoting prosocial behaviors

Promoting prosocial behaviors, modeling good behavior, protecting from need desperation, educating in a framework for how to think about right and wrong; these are the things at the heart of effective crime reduction strategies. Some prisons have reduced recidivism with philosophy and ethics courses for inmates. 

I wouldn't say it is the religious influences specifically but whether or not those influences contain what I mentioned above, as it isn't hard to find religious influences where none of that happened and youth were taken advantage of and abused instead of helped. Some churches and religious groups do amazing work but others are no better than the gangs themselves. 

[exchemist]

45 minutes ago, MSC said:

Exactly; secular ethical norms can be derived from biology, physiology and physics. Commonalities within the context of our existence as living beings on a wacky rock hurtling through space that could fly into another rock and end it all at any point. 

That's literally humans MO in everything they do most of the time so definitely not a conspiracy theory imo. 

Promoting prosocial behaviors, modeling good behavior, protecting from need desperation, educating in a framework for how to think about right and wrong; these are the things at the heart of effective crime reduction strategies. Some prisons have reduced recidivism with philosophy and ethics courses for inmates. 

I wouldn't say it is the religious influences specifically but whether or not those influences contain what I mentioned above, as it isn't hard to find religious influences where none of that happened and youth were taken advantage of and abused instead of helped. Some churches and religious groups do amazing work but others are no better than the gangs themselves. 

Oh indeed. I suspect the point here is that religion offers a way to appeal to the better nature of these youths, guiding them towards prosocial attitudes and behaviour, in a way they probably find fairly natural and acceptable, culturally.

Some people think religious teaching is all about forbidding things and retribution, but of course it isn't at all like that really. 

 

 

[dimreepr]

52 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Oh indeed. I suspect the point here is that religion offers a way to appeal to the better nature of these youths, guiding them towards prosocial attitudes and behaviour, in a way they probably find fairly natural and acceptable, culturally.

Some people think religious teaching is all about forbidding things and retribution, but of course it isn't at all like that really. 

 

 

Indeed +1

But we also have to acknowledge that morality is a subset of ethics and we have to accept that nihilism, without a god type brake, can eat into a reasonable societal law...

[LuckyR]

The idea that an Iron Age text contains valuable wisdom that isn't common knowledge in the Modern era, is sentimentality masquerading as logic. One can point to prohibitions on murder in said text, but it's not required. What about not eating pork? Is that important? Not shaving your beard? Important?

 

Would anyone currently use Iron Age medical practices? Or Iron Age marital advice?

[iNow]

5 hours ago, LuckyR said:

Would anyone currently use Iron Age medical practices? Or Iron Age marital advice?

I wouldn’t even use Iron Age iron. Our smelting and forging processes are far superior today. 

[exchemist]

5 hours ago, LuckyR said:

The idea that an Iron Age text contains valuable wisdom that isn't common knowledge in the Modern era, is sentimentality masquerading as logic. One can point to prohibitions on murder in said text, but it's not required. What about not eating pork? Is that important? Not shaving your beard? Important?

 

Would anyone currently use Iron Age medical practices? Or Iron Age marital advice?

Well I suppose the Roman Empire at the time of Christ could be said to be an Iron Age civilisation, but I think the term is generally restricted to pre-history, i.e. before there were written records. 

[dimreepr]

8 hours ago, LuckyR said:

The idea that an Iron Age text contains valuable wisdom that isn't common knowledge in the Modern era, is sentimentality masquerading as logic. One can point to prohibitions on murder in said text, but it's not required. What about not eating pork? Is that important? Not shaving your beard? Important?

Two things can be true at once...

[LuckyR]

9 hours ago, exchemist said:

Well I suppose the Roman Empire at the time of Christ could be said to be an Iron Age civilisation, but I think the term is generally restricted to pre-history, i.e. before there were written records. 

Well the Old Testament is generally felt to have been written from about 1200 BCE to 165 BCE, which is during the Iron Age (1200 BCE to 539 BCE). 

10 hours ago, iNow said:

I wouldn’t even use Iron Age iron. Our smelting and forging processes are far superior today. 

Exactly. 

[exchemist]

8 hours ago, LuckyR said:

Well the Old Testament is generally felt to have been written from about 1200 BCE to 165 BCE, which is during the Iron Age (1200 BCE to 539 BCE). 

 

But Christians are not Jews. Christianity is defined by the New Testament, put together between 50 and 100AD or thereabouts.  

[dimreepr]

13 hours ago, LuckyR said:

Well the Old Testament is generally felt to have been written from about 1200 BCE to 165 BCE, which is during the Iron Age (1200 BCE to 539 BCE). 

Exactly. 

What makes you think that we're smarter than them?

We haven't evolved a greater intelligence, all we've done is evolve our understanding, based on their's; don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... 😉

[J.C.MacSwell]

I'm not sure we are any more "moral" than many of the ancients that developed our religions. We just have more information to point at where they erred in some of their assumptions in the narratives they used to get their ideas across.

I suspect most had a moral compass prior to the establishment of any current religion...and I suspect most bent it a bit when it suited them...

[dimreepr]

13 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I'm not sure we are any more "moral" than many of the ancients that developed our religions. We just have more information to point at where they erred in some of their assumptions in the narratives they used to get their ideas across.

I suspect most had a moral compass prior to the establishment of any current religion...and I suspect most bent it a bit when it suited them...

Indeed, when all things are considered and both sides of the equation are cancelled out, what remains are the politics...

[LuckyR]

On 10/14/2024 at 5:19 AM, dimreepr said:

What makes you think that we're smarter than them?

We haven't evolved a greater intelligence, all we've done is evolve our understanding, based on their's; don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... 😉

Humans aren't inherently "smarter", but we're currently way more experienced, with a knowledge base orders of magnitude greater in size.

Edited 3 hours ago by LuckyR

[Sensei]

I learned that thousands of priests in Russia, thousands of imams in Muslim states and thousands of rabbis in Israel pray for the victory of their own country and the death of people from the opposite side. They pray for prosperity for their country, and everything bad for their opponents.  Where is their "morality"? Where is their "religiosity"?

 

ps. If everything is fine in neighboring countries, it's also better in your country because you don't have immigrants and/or expatriates in the country in a large quantity. So in order to solve the "immigrant problem" you don't "build a wall" you just build them factories etc. etc. and employ them in them while they are still in their home country..

Edited 3 hours ago by Sensei