Night FM Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 While my understanding of the Biblical text isn't all-encompassing, God seems to have given Adam and Eve different instructions after departing from the Garden of Eden. Some of these, such as requiring them to cover their nakedness may be easy to recall. God also did not give Adam and Eve permission to eat meat until after the fall of man, and prior to that they were presumably vegans, only being given permission to eat the fruit of the trees. Regarding childbirth, God instructed Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply" while in Eden, but after the Fall of Man, stated that childbirth would be a source of suffering (and if we skip to the New Testament, of course Paul stated that it would be better not to marry unless one could not avoid doing so). This implies that Eden was the ideal set of conditions for having children, and that, as a result of departing from Eden, childbirth would become a source of sorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJW Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 I apologise for the thread hijack, but I have a question: If Adam and Eve had not sinned, would they have eventually gone to heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 14 minutes ago, KJW said: I apologise for the thread hijack, but I have a question: If Adam and Eve had not sinned, would they have eventually gone to heaven? No because they were not baptized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 I have a question too. We are a science forum, and only deal with the scientific ramifications of religion. Wouldn't Night FM be better served asking these questions of his pastor/priest/rabbi/iman/etc. ? I, for one, am getting tired of faith based questions on a scientific, evidence based forum. There are more appropriate places for these types of inquiries. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 (edited) 9 hours ago, Night FM said: While my understanding of the Biblical text isn't all-encompassing, God seems to have given Adam and Eve different instructions after departing from the Garden of Eden. Some of these, such as requiring them to cover their nakedness may be easy to recall. God also did not give Adam and Eve permission to eat meat until after the fall of man, and prior to that they were presumably vegans, only being given permission to eat the fruit of the trees. Regarding childbirth, God instructed Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply" while in Eden, but after the Fall of Man, stated that childbirth would be a source of suffering (and if we skip to the New Testament, of course Paul stated that it would be better not to marry unless one could not avoid doing so). This implies that Eden was the ideal set of conditions for having children, and that, as a result of departing from Eden, childbirth would become a source of sorrow. I think it is important to read these Genesis stories as allegorical. If you try to take them literally you end up looking a prize idiot, seeing as they are contradictory in so many ways. The main Christian (and, I believe, Jewish) denominations have always seen them as allegorical, with a message behind them, rather than literal fact. It seems to me the story of the Fall is basically a way to explain why there is hardship in life, in spite of the apparently contradictory belief in a loving God who takes care of His creation. The ancient Greeks, for instance, had no such concept of a loving God. So for them the vicissitudes of life could be attributed to the gods fooling with humanity arbitrarily, for their own amusement. But Christianity and Judaism have this idea of a benign, personal God, which is a bit hard to reconcile with all the unpleasant aspects of life. Coming to the specifics, there is no suggestion in the bible, so far as I am aware, that childbirth would be a source of sorrow. It would be painful, sure, but the arrival of a child is assumed, generally in the bible, to be a source of delight and celebration. Edited October 12 by exchemist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 (edited) deleted Edited October 12 by Genady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joigus Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 8 hours ago, MigL said: I have a question too. We are a science forum, and only deal with the scientific ramifications of religion. Wouldn't Night FM be better served asking these questions of his pastor/priest/rabbi/iman/etc. ? I, for one, am getting tired of faith based questions on a scientific, evidence based forum. There are more appropriate places for these types of inquiries. I second the motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genady Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 37 minutes ago, joigus said: I second the motion. I don't like it either, but apparently there is no rule against it. OTOH, it is easy to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joigus Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 5 minutes ago, Genady said: I don't like it either, but apparently there is no rule against it. OTOH, it is easy to ignore. As I understand, the mods sometimes let the troll keep trolling long after the trolling behaviour has been spotted, as long as enough members find the topic interesting or worthy enough that they keep bringing up good-quality arguments, as is the case from Peterkin and exchemist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 (edited) 12 hours ago, Night FM said: This implies that Eden was the ideal set of conditions for having children, and that, as a result of departing from Eden, childbirth would become a source of sorrow. Everything would become a source of sorrow. Genesis 3: 16-19. Right away they started having kids, and the first one killed the second one. Nothing but trouble, kids! Gods are even more trouble. (What I find interesting in the Cain and Abel story is that there are other people in the world, who had to be restrained from killing the fratricide. You'd almost think there was a human society out there, with laws.) 11 hours ago, KJW said: If Adam and Eve had not sinned, would they have eventually gone to heaven? They wouldn't need to. They lived their whole lives - 130 years - in Paradise. So would their increasingly long-lived children have done so. Without sin, there is no need for damnation or redemption: no need for heaven and hell. 10 hours ago, MigL said: I, for one, am getting tired of faith based questions on a scientific, evidence based forum. I think they're fun. Edited October 12 by Peterkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 38 minutes ago, Peterkin said: Everything would become a source of sorrow. Genesis 3: 16-19. Right away they started having kids, and the first one killed the second one. Nothing but trouble, kids! Gods are even more trouble. (What I find interesting in the Cain and Abel story is that there are other people in the world, who had to be restrained from killing the fratricide. You'd almost think there was a human society out there, with laws.) They wouldn't need to. They lived their whole lives - 130 years - in Paradise. So would their increasingly long-lived children have done so. Without sin, there is no need for damnation or redemption: no need for heaven and hell. I think they're fun. They can be, but even I'm getting bored, especially with such a flawed premise 'did god intend', from a religious POV is utter bollox, since it gave us free will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night FM Posted October 21 Author Share Posted October 21 On 10/12/2024 at 9:00 AM, dimreepr said: They can be, but even I'm getting bored, especially with such a flawed premise 'did god intend', from a religious POV is utter bollox, since it gave us free will Giving free will and intending for people to use it in a certain way are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 13 hours ago, Night FM said: Giving free will and intending for people to use it in a certain way are two different things. She’s omniscient, so it’s not like it would be a surprise. And giving beings a sex drive and not telling them how babies are made seems like intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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