Are transgender people born that way?

[Night FM]

I have heard conflicting arguments on this. Some arguments, even ones posited by trans advocates themselves have stated that identifying as transgender is essentially just a form of individual expression, which would imply that they aren't born that way. And since there is more than enough evidence that environmental factors such as media can influence people's behavior, exposure to media or social media which promotes identifying as transgender could influence people to engage in those behaviors who otherwise would not do so.

However, the other line of argumentation implies that some people are born with the inclination to identify as transgender, and that they may know this from a very young age. With the claim being made that arguing that transgender is merely a form of "individual expression" is something which opponents of trans rights do.

Edited October 13 by Night FM

[swansont]

47 minutes ago, Night FM said:

I have heard conflicting arguments on this.

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Moderator Note

Where? Who is making the arguments? This is in medical science - are these medical science arguments? Let’s see what science you’ve heard on the subject.

 

[Night FM]

Just now, swansont said:

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Moderator Note

Where? Who is making the arguments? This is in medical science - are these medical science arguments? Let’s see what science you’ve heard on the subject.

 

Is gender schema considered medical science here?

[swansont]

1 minute ago, Night FM said:

Is gender schema considered medical science here?

You posted this in medical science, so you’d better be discussing science.

[Night FM]

3 minutes ago, swansont said:

You posted this in medical science, so you’d better be discussing science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_schema_theory

According to Wikipedia, it is considered social psychology, so you tell me if it's considered medical science or should be elsewhere.

[swansont]

1 minute ago, Night FM said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_schema_theory

According to Wikipedia, it is considered social psychology, so you tell me if it's considered medical science or should be elsewhere.

What is it you want to discuss? Gender schema, or transgenderism? There might be some overlap, but AFAICT these are not the same thing.

[TheVat]

The specific causes of gender dysphoria remain unknown, and treatments targeting the etiology or pathogenesis of gender dysphoria do not exist.^[30] Evidence from studies of twins suggests that genetic factors play a role in the development of gender dysphoria.^[11][12] Gender identity is thought to likely reflect a complex interplay of biological, environmental, and cultural factors.^[13] Neurobiological basis of GD has been proven by the "distinct gray matter volume and brain activation and connectivity differences" in people with GD when compared to controls; and this "leads to the concept of brain gender".^[31]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria}

^{The article as a whole is useful in getting a sense that trangender is more than just a form of personal expression, i.e. that early neurogenesis, in utero, plays a causal role.}

 

[MigL]

Transgenderism is a condition usually arrived at through medical means, whether gender reassignment surgery or hormonal treatment.
The 'urge' to exchange gender is what some people may be born with; this 'struggle' sometimes leads to transgenderism ( or sometimes merely to cross-dressing 😄 )

[LuckyR]

The answer is "some are". There has been a consistent low number of gender dysphoric folks long before the term, treatments etc existed. Thus social media etc cannot be the cause of such cases historically. Of course currently, the percentage of the gender dysphoric has recently jumped, this additional number is almost certainly due to the trendiness of the concept within the culture, specifically on social media.

[swansont]

5 hours ago, LuckyR said:

this additional number is almost certainly due to the trendiness of the concept within the culture, specifically on social media.

Evidence, please.

[TheVat]

7 hours ago, LuckyR said:

Of course currently, the percentage of the gender dysphoric has recently jumped, this additional number is almost certainly due to the trendiness of the concept within the culture, specifically on social media.

Generally, any condition that has been considered a deviation and carried a burden of social shame, will often be suppressed or kept covert by people who experience it.  So, for sure, more awareness and social acceptance will lead to higher rates of reported GD.  When people can move from "there's something bad and shaneful about me," to "there's something different about me," they become more visible.  As my previous post/quote mentioned, the etiology of GD remains unclear, so it's also unclear if there are also environmental toxins (e.g. endocrine disruptors) that could be increasing the incidence of a neurological condition.

[dimreepr]

On 12/12/2024 at 7:05 AM, LuckyR said:

The answer is "some are". There has been a consistent low number of gender dysphoric folks long before the term, treatments etc existed. Thus social media etc cannot be the cause of such cases historically. Of course currently, the percentage of the gender dysphoric has recently jumped, this additional number is almost certainly due to the trendiness of the concept within the culture, specifically on social media.

Utter bollox (pun intended), this isn't like deciding to be <insert intolerance> bc the Jones' make it sound cool.

If someone decides to cut off an appendage to release themselves from themselves, then it's a much deeper process than what's available on daytime TV.

Imagine if the world could see your deepest and darkest cultural shame, whatever that is; and someone like you comes along and with no understanding of the pain involved, just point's and laugh's at you...

So, how does it feel?

[CharonY]

One could ask a different question: is gender identity innate for cis-gender folks? I.e., one could look at the broader population and try figure out when and how gender identity is established. If one e.g. identifies a genetic mechanisms for gender identity, then one could take a look at possible differences between cis- and trans-gender folks. However, there is decent likelihood that it is a developmental process (i.e. genes interacting with the environment) which would make the study more difficult. But then it also means that cis-gender identity is not innate.

Perhaps surprisingly, our knowledge of a genetic basis of gender somewhat sketchy. Twin studies suggest at least some genetic component, especially if one tries to link traits more quantitative (i.e., using grades of masculinity and femininity vs. binary measures). However, so far molecular studies, such as GWAS have only found suggestions with varying degrees of usually fairly low specificity.

There was a good review on this topic from a genomics consortium sometime 2018/19, though I cannot recall the citation of the top of my head. If there is interest I can likely dig it up.

[LuckyR]

On 12/12/2024 at 8:11 AM, TheVat said:

Generally, any condition that has been considered a deviation and carried a burden of social shame, will often be suppressed or kept covert by people who experience it.  So, for sure, more awareness and social acceptance will lead to higher rates of reported GD.  When people can move from "there's something bad and shaneful about me," to "there's something different about me," they become more visible.  As my previous post/quote mentioned, the etiology of GD remains unclear, so it's also unclear if there are also environmental toxins (e.g. endocrine disruptors) that could be increasing the incidence of a neurological condition.

Oh, you are accurately describing a portion of the recent increase in numbers, of course. But there are cultures where gender mismatch isn't considered negative (such as Samoan) and their historical observation of prevalence is well below that currently among young Western girls. So there's more to it than your comment. 

18 hours ago, dimreepr said:

If someone decides to cut off an appendage to release themselves from themselves, then it's a much deeper process than what's available on daytime TV.

Imagine if the world could see your deepest and darkest cultural shame, whatever that is; and someone like you comes along and with no understanding of the pain involved, just point's and laugh's at you...

So, how does it feel?

Even a simpleton understands that adolescent musings on this topic don't start with pondering surgery. 

Edited yesterday at 07:05 AM by LuckyR

[swansont]

4 hours ago, LuckyR said:

Oh, you are accurately describing a portion of the recent increase in numbers, of course. But there are cultures where gender mismatch isn't considered negative (such as Samoan) and their historical observation of prevalence is well below that currently among young Western girls. So there's more to it than your comment. 

When you’re asked for evidence of a claim, you’re expected to provide it, rather than continue making claims that lack supporting evidence.

[dimreepr]

5 hours ago, LuckyR said:

Even a simpleton understands that adolescent musings on this topic don't start with pondering surgery. 

[Peterkin]

On 10/12/2024 at 9:26 PM, Night FM said:

some arguments, even ones posited by trans advocates themselves have stated that identifying as transgender is essentially just a form of individual expression, which would imply that they aren't born that way.

Did 'they' actually say "just  a form of self-expression" - which you interpret as the same as deciding to get a tattoo?

Or did 'they' say "it's simply an expression of one's real self"? 

What the wording means to the speaker an what you would infer are not necessarily in the same realm of communication. 

On 10/12/2024 at 9:26 PM, Night FM said:

exposure to media or social media which promotes identifying as transgender could influence people to engage in those behaviors who otherwise would not do so.

What, like children who play cops and robbers grow up to be police officers or criminals?

[swansont]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

That’s not a rebuttal of the point, nor evidence that supports your contention 

[dimreepr]

19 hours ago, swansont said:

That’s not a rebuttal of the point, nor evidence that supports your contention 

I was just pointing and laughing...

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I was just pointing and laughing...

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Moderator Note

Putting more thought into your posts would look less like trolling. Do better, please.

 

[TheVat]

On 12/13/2024 at 9:33 AM, CharonY said:

Perhaps surprisingly, our knowledge of a genetic basis of gender somewhat sketchy. Twin studies suggest at least some genetic component, especially if one tries to link traits more quantitative (i.e., using grades of masculinity and femininity vs. binary measures). However, so far molecular studies, such as GWAS have only found suggestions with varying degrees of usually fairly low specificity.

I wonder if it will stay sketchy, due to the skewing factor of self-report.  There is so much social weight on how people fit in to a group, and what they tell themselves, that it is very hard to arrive at objective metrics of gender. (unlike metrics of biological sex, like ring finger/index finger ratio, hip/shoulder width, facial proportion, etc)  Seems like even subjecting large study populations to PET scans would have skewing problems.  

The only reliable metric I've found is propensity to put absurdly small amounts of a food in storage dish.  JK.