Atheism and suicide

[Night FM]

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303

CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients.

This article suggests that atheists are more likely to commit suicide. I see this as a negative aspect of atheism. Thoughts on this?

[iNow]

My thoughts are you need to leave or pursue your agenda somewhere else because you’re super boring. 

[swansont]

“Among the subjects who reported a religious affiliation (N=305), the specific denominations endorsed were Catholicism (41.0%, N=125), Protestantism (28.5%, N=87), Judaism (17.4%, N=53), and other (13.1%, N=40).”

N=371, so 66 were atheist/agnostic, or 17.8%

But 

“When Americans are asked to check a box indicating their religious affiliation, 28% now check 'none.' 

A new study from Pew Research finds that the religiously unaffiliated – a group comprised of atheists, agnostic and those who say their religion is "nothing in particular" – is now the largest cohort in the U.S. They're more prevalent among American adults than Catholics (23%) or evangelical Protestants (24%).”

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/24/1226371734/religious-nones-are-now-the-largest-single-group-in-the-u-s

So if this sampling was random, it seems like atheists are less likely to be depressed, and Catholics and Jews (2.4% of the population) are much more likely to be depressed.

If it’s not random then the study is horribly skewed

 

[CharonY]

51 minutes ago, swansont said:

“Among the subjects who reported a religious affiliation (N=305), the specific denominations endorsed were Catholicism (41.0%, N=125), Protestantism (28.5%, N=87), Judaism (17.4%, N=53), and other (13.1%, N=40).”

N=371, so 66 were atheist/agnostic, or 17.8%

But 

“When Americans are asked to check a box indicating their religious affiliation, 28% now check 'none.' 

A new study from Pew Research finds that the religiously unaffiliated – a group comprised of atheists, agnostic and those who say their religion is "nothing in particular" – is now the largest cohort in the U.S. They're more prevalent among American adults than Catholics (23%) or evangelical Protestants (24%).”

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/24/1226371734/religious-nones-are-now-the-largest-single-group-in-the-u-s

So if this sampling was random, it seems like atheists are less likely to be depressed, and Catholics and Jews (2.4% of the population) are much more likely to be depressed.

If it’s not random then the study is horribly skewed

 

There is some evidence that religiosity is associated with lower suicide risk, as most religions forbid suicide. The protective factor differed between religions, and I believe the strongest effect was found in Muslims. However, this is not the correct conclusion:

3 hours ago, Night FM said:

This article suggests that atheists are more likely to commit suicide.

The article suggest that in the study cohort, religiosity was associated with lower suicide rates, which is not equivalent to atheists in general conducting at a higher rate.

Longitudinal studies who look at large cohort, track suicide rates and then investigate the religious affiliation found contrasting results, and one of the largest ones that I know of (9 yr- over 1 mio folks) found no difference between religious and non-religious groups (https://doi.org/10.1192/bjp.bp.113.128694)

There are a few reasons why adherence to religions can have certain protective factors. For example, practicing Muslims do not consume alcohol, which can exacerbate mental health episodes. This would be the same for non-drinking atheists, of course.

Other effects that are difficult to disentangle are age, but also overall religiosity of the population (or cohort), as religions can have very different manifestations in difference societies (e.g. in theocracies).

[swansont]

13 minutes ago, CharonY said:

There is some evidence that religiosity is associated with lower suicide risk, as most religions forbid suicide. The protective factor differed between religions, and I believe the strongest effect was found in Muslims

There’s no guarantee that it’s the religion, though, and if one group had a dramatically lower risk for some other reason (so there’s a correlation without causality), it skews the results, especially if it’s in one of the over-represented groups in the study.

There’s also the note about suicide attempts being under-reported in the religious, owing to the stigma, which can also skew the results.

[CharonY]

30 minutes ago, swansont said:

There’s no guarantee that it’s the religion, though, and if one group had a dramatically lower risk for some other reason (so there’s a correlation without causality), it skews the results, especially if it’s in one of the over-represented groups in the study.

There’s also the note about suicide attempts being under-reported in the religious, owing to the stigma, which can also skew the results.

Yes absolutely, there is just a general finding of association, and the speculation of potential protective elements. I am obviously not an expert on this subject, but the few studies I came across didn't delve much into details or spent much effort into identifying confounding factors (the only one I came across was alcohol and substance use).

Also, one could speculate that quite a few mechanisms available to struggling folks, are based on religious organizations (more so in the past). One argument made especially in earlier studies suggested that the community afforded by being member of a parish to play a factor, but some studies, including the linked one, found no such correlation.

[Peterkin]

14 hours ago, Night FM said:

This article suggests that atheists are more likely to commit suicide. I see this as a negative aspect of atheism. Thoughts on this?

Another article concluding the opposite. And that's not taking into account the role of zealotry and martyrdom.

I would further speculate that depression is only one reason for people to contemplate suicide; there are practical and rational reasons, such as painful terminal illness, lack of hope for improvement or relief of an untenable situation, guilt over having done irreparable damage, reluctance to be a burden on and source of sorrow to loved ones, avoidance of imprisonment, torture or public humiliation.

Many religious people are prevented by fear of damnation from seeking the obvious escape from unnecessary suffering; many caregivers are similarly hampered by their own religious beliefs so that they actively thwart any attempt by their charges; many lawmakers are still ruled by old religious dicta and make assisting a suicide illegal. Atheists are not bound by the 'God's will' bullshit, and therefore free to make their own decisions about their own lives.  

[TheVat]

Paging Abraham Wald!   Note the OP article title: Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt.

So statistically we have survivorship bias - just like with Wald's ww2 combat planes being the sample that made it back home.

We have no reports from those who succeeded at offing themselves.   For all we know, they did the job properly partly because they were filled with religious confidence that a better afterlife awaited them.  Dead people tell no tales.

12 hours ago, swansont said:

There’s also the note about suicide attempts being under-reported in the religious, owing to the stigma, which can also skew the results.

Yet another skew.  

And this,

Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children...

Younger, yes, as religious affiliation rises with age.  

Yup, "horribly" skewed was about right.

[iNow]

13 hours ago, CharonY said:

One argument made especially in earlier studies suggested that the community afforded by being member of a parish to play a factor

This was my first thought, as well. The sense of belonging to a community is more likely to be a protective factor than the religion itself. I'd like to see a study comparing religious affiliation alongside things like being a member of a book club, or sports franchise, or poker circle for example. Feeling socially connected has enormous benefits, lower suicide rates quite likely to be one of them. 

[CharonY]

4 hours ago, iNow said:

This was my first thought, as well. The sense of belonging to a community is more likely to be a protective factor than the religion itself. I'd like to see a study comparing religious affiliation alongside things like being a member of a book club, or sports franchise, or poker circle for example. Feeling socially connected has enormous benefits, lower suicide rates quite likely to be one of them. 

Yes, but the (rough) studies looking at folks with regular church attendance did not really see that (but in some studies the effects i found). My reading is that it might have an effect, but the effect size is small and there are many confounders who can erase any effects.

[LuckyR]

On 10/20/2024 at 3:51 PM, Night FM said:

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303

CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients.

This article suggests that atheists are more likely to commit suicide. I see this as a negative aspect of atheism. Thoughts on this?

This is a crappy study. The "atheist" group was less likely to be married, less likely to have children, had fewer family ties, were younger and had higher levels of aggression and impulsivity and most importantly had higher chance of substance abuse. Any of these would explain the higher suicide risk aside from religiosity.

 

Garbage in, garbage out.

[TheVat]

Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovere'd country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?

[Jason_Dix]

In my opinion, atheism and suicide have nothing to do with each other.
Religion is the main and very effective lever of influence and control over the masses of people who blindly believe in the incorporeal power and unprecedented miracles described in the book. And it all happened 2000 years ago. It seems to me that this is more like the documentation of the first Islamicists and psychologists who realized that not only a flock of sheep but also a flock of people can be controlled with a word and a stick, since at that time high intelligence was manifested in a minority of the population. 
And suicide is the result of a mental disorder. 

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, Jason_Dix said:

In my opinion, atheism and suicide have nothing to do with each other.
Religion is the main and very effective lever of influence and control over the masses of people who blindly believe in the incorporeal power and unprecedented miracles described in the book. And it all happened 2000 years ago. It seems to me that this is more like the documentation of the first Islamicists and psychologists who realized that not only a flock of sheep but also a flock of people can be controlled with a word and a stick, since at that time high intelligence was manifested in a minority of the population. 
And suicide is the result of a mental disorder. 

This strikes me as a flawed line of argument.

First of all, only one religion, Christianity,  was founded 2000years ago. Surely you need to consider religion in general, not just Christianity?

Secondly, I have no idea why you refer to the "the first Islamicists and psychologists". There were no psychologists in the ancient world. And why focus on "Islamicists", when nearly all of the other major religions of the world are far older than Islam? 

Thirdly, your idea that religion was developed as a means of control of the population, while it may some have truth in it, needs more justification in my view. There were and are a variety of power structures in society, religious authority being only one of them. It seems more likely to me that religion originally developed as a way to help people come to terms with the vicissitudes of life. You see this not only in the teachings of the Abrahamic religions but also in religions such as Buddhism, which does not seem have a religious hierarchy exerting control in the way that, for example, Christianity did historically. I suspect what happened is that in some religions, religious authorities grew up as the theology became more sophisticated and that these then became, in addition to their earlier function as theological experts, a source of power over society.

I certainly do not buy the notion you seem to suggest that a group of clever individuals sat around and dreamt up the idea of inventing a religion, in order to exert control over society. 

Fourthly, there is no evidence that people in the ancient world were any less intelligent than modern mankind. 

Edited December 31, 2024 by exchemist

[TheVat]

6 hours ago, exchemist said:

Fourthly, there is no evidence that people in the ancient world were any less intelligent than modern mankind. 

Indeed.  Possibly the opposite.  Being able to build one's own home and furnishings and tools, memorize long passages of narratives and poems, keen observation of weather patterns and other patterns and relations in nature, identify and locate hundreds of botanical sources of food, medicine, and artisanal materials, etc.  Modern technology and digital culture permits levels of obtuseness that probably wouid have been life-threatening to a hunter-gatherer.

 

[gawdzillasama]

On 10/20/2024 at 5:51 PM, Night FM said:

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303

CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients.

This article suggests that atheists are more likely to commit suicide. I see this as a negative aspect of atheism. Thoughts on this?

"Thoughts" would necessarily indicate that agenda driven articles fail the "unbiased" metric. 

[gawdzillasama]

Atheists believe this is all we get. It's possible that one's life is so shit that non-existence is favorable, but rationally that removes any chance of things changing. 

[swansont]

31 minutes ago, gawdzillasama said:

Atheists believe this is all we get. It's possible that one's life is so shit that non-existence is favorable, but rationally that removes any chance of things changing. 

That implies belief in a supreme being is required to believe in reincarnation, or mysticism (multiple planes of existence). I don’t see why that is true.

[gawdzillasama]

Is that's what you like, go with it. But don't put my name on it. 

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, gawdzillasama said:

Is that's what you like, go with it. But don't put my name on it. 

Was that in response to me?

I didn’t put your name on it, but you said “atheists believe” like there’s some strict doctrine beyond non-belief in gods.

[gawdzillasama]

Don't add anything to my statements. I say what I mean. That will be the end of that diversion. 

[swansont]

9 hours ago, gawdzillasama said:

Don't add anything to my statements. I say what I mean. That will be the end of that diversion. 

I didn’t add anything. I pointed out an implication, which suggests the statement is not true. You can retract it or defend it.

[gawdzillasama]

You said "that implies...". Don't rework my words, use your own. This might help  you.

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?q=fallacies poster&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fthethinkingshop.org%2Fcdn%2Fshop%2Fproducts%2FFallaciesPoster_HighRes_1080x.jpg%3Fv%3D1581331579&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fthethinkingshop.org%2Fproducts%2Flogical-fallacies-wall-poster&docid=OgQtivY1SfWpTM&tbnid=ROVfwqfIvZEAfM&vet=12ahUKEwiX7b_U39SKAxXy4MkDHZH9C-8QM3oECB0QAA..i&w=1080&h=720&hcb=2&ved=2ahUKEwiX7b_U39SKAxXy4MkDHZH9C-8QM3oECB0QAA

[TheVat]

13 hours ago, gawdzillasama said:

Is that's what you like, go with it. But don't put my name on it. 

Confusing.  Atheists believe there's no supreme being.  So if you say they believe this life is 

 

14 hours ago, gawdzillasama said:

Atheists believe this is all we get.

It does assert they ALSO believe there is no other plane of existence post mortem.  But that's not required of atheists.  To give a silly example (just for purpose of illustration), an atheist could postulate that we have a soul that just naturally exists, 21 grams of organized exotic matter which detaches from our synaptic endings at death and then joins up with some interstellar mycelial network, the great space fungus of heavenly contemplation.  No deity needed.

[gawdzillasama]

Nothing confusing about it.