How "civilized" are people?

[Night FM]

Basically, I believe that if all laws and social institutions disappeared, that people would potentially behave in much more barbaric ways than they do in everyday life. Not necessarily everyone, but many would, and there is ample evidence that "ordinary" people can act in uncivilized ways under specific circumstances.

This is why I don't totally buy into atheist arguments that, unlike theists, they don't do "good out of fear", because the reality is that many secular institutions, such as the laws of one's nation or state, play a role in how they behave, even if they take it for granted. If there was no perceived consequence for murder, people would be more likely to murder than they currently are, whether the social rules against murder come from the law or from the Bible.

This isn't even a line of thought that comes specifically from "religion" as often claimed, and can be sourced to thinkers such as Freud, who posited that the invention of civilization "sublimated" our more primal impulses.

[exchemist]

3 hours ago, Night FM said:

Basically, I believe that if all laws and social institutions disappeared, that people would potentially behave in much more barbaric ways than they do in everyday life. Not necessarily everyone, but many would, and there is ample evidence that "ordinary" people can act in uncivilized ways under specific circumstances.

This is why I don't totally buy into atheist arguments that, unlike theists, they don't do "good out of fear", because the reality is that many secular institutions, such as the laws of one's nation or state, play a role in how they behave, even if they take it for granted. If there was no perceived consequence for murder, people would be more likely to murder than they currently are, whether the social rules against murder come from the law or from the Bible.

This isn't even a line of thought that comes specifically from "religion" as often claimed, and can be sourced to thinkers such as Freud, who posited that the invention of civilization "sublimated" our more primal impulses.

Your emphasis on fear is misplaced, in my view. You ignore the appeal to people's better nature that is found, both in civil society and, even more strongly, perhaps,  in religion.

It is perverse to claim that religion is all about retribution for wrongdoing. The basic message of the Christian gospels is to love your neighbour. Christ set an example through his behaviour. Similar sentiments encouraging altruism are to be found in other religions. It may be that your exclusivist Calvinism is all about retribution, but that is not true of most religion.

Secular society also sets great store by people's sense of "the right thing to do". Most people comply with laws because they realise at some level that we need rules of behaviour in order to get along. People have quite a string instinct to help one another, as a matter of fact. We saw this vividly during the Covid pandemic, for example. A lot of people are looking for an excuse to make friends and be nice, not by any means only people with strong religious faith.

On the other hand, one can certainly have forces that encourage selfish or hateful behaviour towards others. Trump's appeal, for instance, is largely because he makes it seem normal to hate other people and actually encourages it. He empowers people to cast aside their civilised constraints and indulge in an orgy of hatred. So yes, I would agree there can be kind of "Lord of the Flies" effect, leading to a descent into savagery. A lot is to do with the prevailing mood and with the example set by key figures. (Orwell recognised this phenomenon with the "Two Minutes Hate" sessions organised by IngSoc in "1984".)    

Edited October 22 by exchemist

[KJW]

It's been my experience that most people are good. But there are certainly a***holes out there that spoil it for everyone else. It's probably not fair to judge humanity as a whole based on the relatively few a***holes who cause problems. On the other hand, it's wise not to forget that not everyone is a good person and that one needs to keep their wits about them.

 

[iNow]

5 hours ago, Night FM said:

I believe that if all laws and social institutions disappeared, that people would potentially behave in much more barbaric ways

And you’re welcome to believe any ridiculous ignorant thing you want. That is your right. 

[Genady]

5 hours ago, Night FM said:

if all laws and social institutions disappeared, [] people would potentially behave in much more barbaric ways than they do in everyday life.

This assumption is wrong.

 

5 hours ago, Night FM said:

people can act in uncivilized ways under specific circumstances

- under specific extreme circumstances, such as when their or their families' lives are in danger, they are extremely starved, frightened, etc. And, even in these situations, most people will act "civilized".

Edited October 22 by Genady

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Do you have any evidence to support your conjecture, or any mainstream scientific basis for it?

 

6 hours ago, Night FM said:

Basically, I believe

!

Moderator Note

It doesn’t matter what you believe. Posting that is just soapboxing. What matters is what you can show, based on actual occurrences or mainstream psychology/sociology/anthropology.