What are the best fields of science for the renewable energy field?

[JohnDBarrow]

Is chemistry the best scientific discipline for a person interested in a renewable energy career that is technically oriented?  I have a special interest in emerging renewable energy technologies and advancing wide-spread human uses of renewable energy in various forms including ocean wave generated electricity. I have a special interest in eliminating man's dependency upon fossil fuels and other finite forms of energy such as nuclear power as soon as possible. I enjoy breathing clean air and having clean water to drink, fish in, swim in, dive in and go boating in. I have a keen interest in the emergence of the world's most advanced battery-rechargeable automobiles, trucks, buses, motorboats, vans and SUV's that are both fire-safe and practical to operate on public roads (and waterways) and I particularly admire Toyota's solid state battery project now in the works. There is a big concern in the consumer car-buying market about the limited range and load capacity of a plug-in EV operating on conventional rechargeable batteries for automotive use, including light-duty trucks that are often asked to tow trailers long distances, and of the fire dangers of conventional Lithium-Ion batteries. A practical plug-in EV full-size pickup truck, in theory, would be able to travel at least as far and as fast under maximum trailer load conditions and in the harshest of weather conditions on a single charge as any comparable gasoline or diesel truck could do on a tankful of fossil fuel. Perhaps solid-state batteries will one day have at least as much energy density as do petroleum-based fuels. It takes so many calories to do so much work over a given amount of time. If I could drive a full-size plug-in pickup truck at least 400 miles at Interstate speeds on a full charge with a travel trailer in tow, I would be indeed one happy camper. The question is how much would the electricity from a recharging station along the way cost me out of pocket to fully recharge that wonderful plug-in EV truck vs the cost to refuel a comparable fossil-fuels-powered truck after making a similar travel trailer trip?  A prudent buyer has to consider both practicality and economics when shopping for a vehicle. 

Besides chemistry, what other scientific disciplines are applied to the field of renewable energy?  Physics? Ecology? 

Edited October 23 by JohnDBarrow

[studiot]

1 hour ago, JohnDBarrow said:

Is chemistry the best scientific discipline for a person interested in a renewable energy career that is technically oriented?  I have a special interest in emerging renewable energy technologies and advancing wide-spread human uses of renewable energy in various forms including ocean wave generated electricity. I have a special interest in eliminating man's dependency upon fossil fuels and other finite forms of energy such as nuclear power as soon as possible. I enjoy breathing clean air and having clean water to drink, fish in, swim in, dive in and go boating in. I have a keen interest in the emergence of the world's most advanced battery-rechargeable automobiles, trucks, buses, motorboats, vans and SUV's that are both fire-safe and practical to operate on public roads (and waterways) and I particularly admire Toyota's solid state battery project now in the works. There is a big concern in the consumer car-buying market about the limited range and load capacity of a plug-in EV operating on conventional rechargeable batteries for automotive use, including light-duty trucks that are often asked to tow trailers long distances, and of the fire dangers of conventional Lithium-Ion batteries. A practical plug-in EV full-size pickup truck, in theory, would be able to travel at least as far and as fast under maximum trailer load conditions and in the harshest of weather conditions on a single charge as any comparable gasoline or diesel truck could do on a tankful of fossil fuel. Perhaps solid-state batteries will one day have at least as much energy density as do petroleum-based fuels. It takes so many calories to do so much work over a given amount of time. If I could drive a full-size plug-in pickup truck at least 400 miles at Interstate speeds on a full charge with a travel trailer in tow, I would be indeed one happy camper. The question is how much would the electricity from a recharging station along the way cost me out of pocket to fully recharge that wonderful plug-in EV truck vs the cost to refuel a comparable fossil-fuels-powered truck after making a similar travel trailer trip?  A prudent buyer has to consider both practicality and economics when shopping for a vehicle. 

Besides chemistry, what other scientific disciplines are applied to the field of renewable energy?  Physics? Ecology? 

 

I am going to say +1 as you have set out your opening post in intelligable fashion.

I know its only one to counter the many negatives you have picked up but the post's quality suggests to me that you have learned a good deal since you previous ones.

 

A straightforward answer to you question is that it rather depends upon what aspect of renewable energy you wish to concentrate on.

As with so many matters it is a blend of several areas of the physical sciences and applied sciences.

 

As a starting point I suggest you find out exactly what the word 'energy' means and describes.

This starting point is in basic Physics, which describes this and explores the various forms of energy that we recognise and the processes of interconversion between them.

 

Was this helpful?

 

[JohnDBarrow]

Yes, sir. Very so much. Thank you. 

ENERGY

Physics. the capacity to do work; the property of a system that diminishes when the system does work on any other system, by an amount equal to the work so done

ENERGY Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

 

WORK

Physics. force times the distance through which it acts; specifically, the transference of energy equal to the product of the component of a force that acts in the direction of the motion of the point of application of the force and the distance through which the point of application moves.

WORK Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

 

I like to think of ENERGY as the capacity for material changes (as the form, shape, size, composition, color or temperature of a mass, and the velocity, acceleration or deceleration of a mass) to occur in the universe. An automobile must consume energy if it moves from one position on earth to another under its own power because there are changes in the car's relative position and changes in velocity (transition from a still position to a state of being in motion for a certain amount of time and distance and vice-versa) in order to make such a move. A car is basically and inert hunk of metal until the internal combustion and mechanical process take hold. Such travel of the car in question might be deemed a unit of work. While the Earth revolves in orbit about the sun, is any energy being consumed in that action alone? is any work being accomplished from mere planetary movement in our solar system? 

Edited October 23 by JohnDBarrow

[studiot]

12 minutes ago, JohnDBarrow said:

Yes, sir. Very so much. Thank you. 

So if you vlike let us discuss 'energy'  and  renewable in the light of the Lynton railway.

This is a cliffside railway with two matching cars suspended by a long cable over a big wheel at the top.

Both cars have an underslung ballast water tank.

The one at the top is filled from a natural stream up there.

The extra weight sends the car downwards, pulling up the one from the bottom which has an empty tank.

When the first car reaches the bottom and the second car reaches the top, the water is emptied from the full tnak and new water is added to the empty one and the cycle repeats.

Here are some pictures

https://www.cliffrailwaylynton.co.uk/about-the-railway/how-it-works/

 

[JohnDBarrow]

It is a water or gravity powered railroad? Is gravity itself a form of energy? 

[swansont]

54 minutes ago, JohnDBarrow said:

While the Earth revolves in orbit about the sun, is any energy being consumed in that action alone? is any work being accomplished from mere planetary movement in our solar system? 

No. If you study further you'll find that work is done when there is a force aligned (or anti-aligned) with displacement. With a central force such as gravity, not net work is done; an object will trade kinetic energy and potential energy, but the sum of the two will not change. In a circular orbit, the kinetic and potential energy does not change because the force is perpendicular to the displacement. No work is done.

If energy is extracted from an orbital body the orbit will decay. This happens e.g. with atmospheric drag.

[exchemist]

2 hours ago, JohnDBarrow said:

Is chemistry the best scientific discipline for a person interested in a renewable energy career that is technically oriented?  I have a special interest in emerging renewable energy technologies and advancing wide-spread human uses of renewable energy in various forms including ocean wave generated electricity. I have a special interest in eliminating man's dependency upon fossil fuels and other finite forms of energy such as nuclear power as soon as possible. I enjoy breathing clean air and having clean water to drink, fish in, swim in, dive in and go boating in. I have a keen interest in the emergence of the world's most advanced battery-rechargeable automobiles, trucks, buses, motorboats, vans and SUV's that are both fire-safe and practical to operate on public roads (and waterways) and I particularly admire Toyota's solid state battery project now in the works. There is a big concern in the consumer car-buying market about the limited range and load capacity of a plug-in EV operating on conventional rechargeable batteries for automotive use, including light-duty trucks that are often asked to tow trailers long distances, and of the fire dangers of conventional Lithium-Ion batteries. A practical plug-in EV full-size pickup truck, in theory, would be able to travel at least as far and as fast under maximum trailer load conditions and in the harshest of weather conditions on a single charge as any comparable gasoline or diesel truck could do on a tankful of fossil fuel. Perhaps solid-state batteries will one day have at least as much energy density as do petroleum-based fuels. It takes so many calories to do so much work over a given amount of time. If I could drive a full-size plug-in pickup truck at least 400 miles at Interstate speeds on a full charge with a travel trailer in tow, I would be indeed one happy camper. The question is how much would the electricity from a recharging station along the way cost me out of pocket to fully recharge that wonderful plug-in EV truck vs the cost to refuel a comparable fossil-fuels-powered truck after making a similar travel trailer trip?  A prudent buyer has to consider both practicality and economics when shopping for a vehicle. 

Besides chemistry, what other scientific disciplines are applied to the field of renewable energy?  Physics? Ecology? 

This looks like yet another of your attempts to cast doubt on the viability of EVs, while pretending to be in favour of the energy transition.

I do not think it worthwhile to address the issues you mention, as I no longer accept that you are posting in good faith. 

-1. 

[JohnDBarrow]

I'm not casting doubt upon anything. I understand that EV's have not yet reached a level of advancement as many people desire.  i appreciate that there are those trying to make them better and more practical. Even the gasoline automobile took a number of decades to reach a widely accepted level of practicality. 

I am interested in what those in disciplines of science and engineering say about the potential of EV's.  EV's and gasoline vehicles both are governed by laws of physics. 

Nature ultimately has limits on what man can do. 

Edited October 24 by JohnDBarrow

[iNow]

Uhuh. 

In 1900, 38% of the cars in the United States were electric, compared to 22% that were gasoline-powered

[JohnDBarrow]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Uhuh. 

In 1900, 38% of the cars in the United States were electric, compared to 22% that were gasoline-powered

What were the other 40% powered by, steam? 

[studiot]

12 hours ago, JohnDBarrow said:

It is a water or gravity powered railroad? Is gravity itself a form of energy? 

Answering a question with another question suggests challenge rather than cooperation.

I chose this particular example because it demonstrates the very basics of work and energy which you must have to be able to discuss this subject effectively.

These concepts and the answers your questions plus others would come out naturally in working through the mechanical principles of the example.

Di you read the article and do you understand (simply as I described) how the system works?

Do you wish to continue ?
 

[exchemist]

8 hours ago, JohnDBarrow said:

I'm not casting doubt upon anything. I understand that EV's have not yet reached a level of advancement as many people desire.  i appreciate that there are those trying to make them better and more practical. Even the gasoline automobile took a number of decades to reach a widely accepted level of practicality. 

I am interested in what those in disciplines of science and engineering say about the potential of EV's.  EV's and gasoline vehicles both are governed by laws of physics. 

Nature ultimately has limits on what man can do. 

You still don't get it. The "those" you refer to are not just a handful of research scientists but include all the major automotive corporations in the world. Hundreds of billions of dollars are being poured into this technology each year and sales of electric vehicles are already almost 20% of the total: https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2024/trends-in-electric-cars 

There is no reason to think there is any significant limit, from the science or engineering viewpoint, to the potential of EVs to replace all IC-engined private vehicles. The constraints are mainly economic and political. The economics improve as sales volumes increase and as the technology advances. The politics have also greatly improved. Most European and Asian governments have now got behind the technology change. The laggard is likely to be the USA, at least if Trump is elected again.

The chemistry of battery technology is one major area of development. The other is the engineering of vehicle charging: the infrastructure, the possibility of charging on the move, linkages to domestic solar generation, electricity tariffs linked to time of day and so forth.

And then there is the big question of commercial vehicles.  These are a lot harder to convert to EV technology, due to the power requirements exceeding what batteries can easily deliver. The answer could better batteries, or current collection on the move, or hydrogen-fuelled IC engines.  

 

    

[JohnDBarrow]

I don't get what still? Maybe I'm an idiot then. I'm concerned about what the laws of nature will permit, not what politicians try to stifle. Man uses fossil fuels because nature put them in this planet and because of their seemingly unsurpassed level of energy density. Nature did not give us an endless supply of fossil fuels. I understand fossil fuels are finite. I understand that the sun will shine, rivers will flow, oceans will move, rain and snow will fall, corn will grow, draft animals will pull and the wind will blow for much longer than man will be able to continue to use fossil fuels and even nuclear power. 

I understand that man will only be able to use whatever nature provides, politics and big business notwithstanding. I hope man makes the most of whatever nature provides in a good way and not in bad ways. Man has to improvise, adapt and overcome. Fossil fuels will not fall from the sky like manna from heaven. You can't pray more of them into existence. 

Edited October 24 by JohnDBarrow

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, JohnDBarrow said:

Maybe I'm an idiot then.

Maybe, but so long as you're not willful and obstinate about it, most ignorance can be resolved with education and critical thinking.

 

3 minutes ago, JohnDBarrow said:

Man uses fossil fuels because nature put them in this planet and because of their seemingly unsurpassed level of energy density

Subsidies and lobbying have played a fairly sizable role in this, too. 

 

4 minutes ago, JohnDBarrow said:

what the laws of nature will permit

Which "laws of nature" specifically do you believe electric cars break or have the potential to break?

[JohnDBarrow]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

Maybe, but so long as you're not willful and obstinate about it, most ignorance can be resolved with education and critical thinking.

 

Subsidies and lobbying have played a fairly sizable role in this, too. 

 

Which "laws of nature" specifically do you believe electric cars break or have the potential to break?

It's a question of the availability of resources. Do you believe that batteries for automobiles will someday match the energy density of fossil fuels? I don't personally know myself. I do know we won't be able to put fossil fuels into our gas tanks for much longer whether we want to or not. Man is up against an energy challenge. 

Another energy challenge man is up against is the ability to produce enough electricity to recharge all those millions if not billions of battery automobiles continually on a broad scale. Those batteries will take material resources also. 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, JohnDBarrow said:

I don't personally know myself.

That was already clear. Thank you.

So, just to confirm, no answer to this question I asked? >> Which "laws of nature" specifically do you believe electric cars break or have the potential to break?

[studiot]

2 hours ago, JohnDBarrow said:

It's a question of the availability of resources. Do you believe that batteries for automobiles will someday match the energy density of fossil fuels? I don't personally know myself. I do know we won't be able to put fossil fuels into our gas tanks for much longer whether we want to or not. Man is up against an energy challenge. 

Another energy challenge man is up against is the ability to produce enough electricity to recharge all those millions if not billions of battery automobiles continually on a broad scale. Those batteries will take material resources also. 

I appreciate you are worried about the future, but consider this

Quote

Google answer to question on natural energy transport on earth

 

How does heat move from the tropics to the poles?

 

 

Wind-driven and ocean-current circulations move warm water toward the poles and colder water toward the equator. The atmosphere redistributes annually as much heat from the tropics to the poles as would be produced by five million of the world's biggest power stations, generating 1,000 megawatts each.8 Apr 2023

 

Do you have any concept of what 5 petawatts means ?

And remember this is all day, everyday  7days a week 52 weeks year.

 

Ask yourself  how much energy and time it took for Man to build all the stuff in the SE United States, destroyed by recent storms in one day ?

There is no shortage of energy available on the planet.

There is no shortage of either the engineering knowledge or the financial resources to harness it.

There is however, a great shortage of the political will to harness it.

Think of projects like the TVA or the Hoover Dam, small beer compared to the energies in just that last hurricane.

 

So if you really want to understand this how about answering the question in my last post  so we can carry on without getting bogged down in extraneous arguments.

 

 

[JohnDBarrow]

Thank you. You have made it a much clearer picture to me now that the biggest obstacle that stands in the way of total freedom from finite energy sources is politics and Big Business.  I will agree there and not argue that. 

2 hours ago, iNow said:

That was already clear. Thank you.

So, just to confirm, no answer to this question I asked? >> Which "laws of nature" specifically do you believe electric cars break or have the potential to break?

I don't believe electric cars break any laws of nature. It seems as if man himself tries to defy nature many times. I do understand that nature only provides man but so many options for the ability to harness and use energy. It seems as if the materials to make batteries for EV automotive use are quite rare and much damage to the earth is done by mining these. 

[JohnDBarrow]

There is nothing that convinces me now that man, for the most part, won't one day return to horses, camels, asses, reindeer, llamas, sled dogs and oxen for general land transportation and draft animals for farming work and ships with sails for travel and shipping at sea. Wood might someday widely be used again for heat and cooking and steam locomotives to haul trains or to power steam-driven farm tractors. 

Then again, man might secure sustainable clean energy forms to power his modern machines of modern civilization, power his comfortable automobiles and heat/cool his homes until such time he becomes extinct upon planet Earth. 

 

[swansont]

43 minutes ago, JohnDBarrow said:

There is nothing that convinces me now that man, for the most part, won't one day return to horses, camels, asses, reindeer, llamas, sled dogs and oxen for general land transportation and draft animals for farming work and ships with sails for travel and shipping at sea. Wood might someday widely be used again for heat and cooking and steam locomotives to haul trains or to power steam-driven farm tractors. 

Then again, man might secure sustainable clean energy forms to power his modern machines of modern civilization, power his comfortable automobiles and heat/cool his homes until such time he becomes extinct upon planet Earth. 

 

Not with a population of ~8.1 billion, or anywhere close to it.

[JohnDBarrow]

51 minutes ago, swansont said:

Not with a population of ~8.1 billion, or anywhere close to it.

Maybe if Earth returns to primitive living, that might even be a good thing. 

[exchemist]

On 10/24/2024 at 1:50 PM, JohnDBarrow said:

I don't get what still? Maybe I'm an idiot then. I'm concerned about what the laws of nature will permit, not what politicians try to stifle. Man uses fossil fuels because nature put them in this planet and because of their seemingly unsurpassed level of energy density. Nature did not give us an endless supply of fossil fuels. I understand fossil fuels are finite. I understand that the sun will shine, rivers will flow, oceans will move, rain and snow will fall, corn will grow, draft animals will pull and the wind will blow for much longer than man will be able to continue to use fossil fuels and even nuclear power. 

I understand that man will only be able to use whatever nature provides, politics and big business notwithstanding. I hope man makes the most of whatever nature provides in a good way and not in bad ways. Man has to improvise, adapt and overcome. Fossil fuels will not fall from the sky like manna from heaven. You can't pray more of them into existence. 

The laws of nature don’t impose any limit on the viability of electric vehicles. IC engines have managed to serve us quite well, in spite of the severe limitations on their efficiency imposed by the 2nd law of thermodynamics on heat engines, a limitation EVs do not suffer from. There is no reason to think that EVs cannot compete - as is clearly shown by the sales statistics I quoted previously.