What does it mean for the US now? Like what does second term of Trump mean for the US now?

[nec209]

What does second term of Trump mean for the US now?

What caused the US polar shift vote where political shift moved to the far right and MAGA movement is where the US is at now. I see some similar political parties starting up in Canada, UK and Europe in upcoming election there but they not so far right like Trump.

They are mostly centrist party or left centrist with strict border closing and stoping immigration there.

But Trump seem more hard core conservatives and ultra far right so the US voting block has moved to hard core conservatives and ultra far right views now.

I also don't see abortion or LGBT being thing in Canada, UK and Europe like it is in the US now where Trump brought it out of the closet in the open now. 

Edited November 6 by nec209

[CharonY]

Quote

"As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and a complete narcissistic moron."

-Mencken. Again.

You are wrong about the far-right parties in Europe, they are extremists without question and are flirting with among other things deporting citizens with incorrect values. These are clearly unconstitutional, but the fact that they are discussing it amongst themselves (it was revealed by undercover journalists) tells you all you need to known.

Objections to Abortion and LGBTQ issues are superficial elements related  to virtue signaling your right credentials and it is being done in in Europe (and also Canada) to various degrees. You will note that during the election the GOP was actually not going hard on those as they were not winning issues. It was mostly used to make fun of transgender folks and related policies, though some folks (e.g. Musk) clearly had a more personal stance than others. Plus Hungary has authoritarian rule for some time and it might be worthwhile to look into their rhetoric and policies (e.g. ending recognition of transgenderism, censoring of LGBTQ positive contents in book and media and so on).

While I am not saying that I have a thorough understanding of the political right in Europe, I think that your assumptions might need some revisions.

I tend to believe that the assumption of decency and civility was a veneer to keep society aligned to some degree- if only strenuously. Once the idea arose that we can move beyond that and really be inclusive to everyone set out a number of alarm bells that have not stopped ringing since then. There was a weird shift in American politics, which could be followed in real-time on Fox News once Obama was elected and folks declared that the USA has become a post-racial nation.

There will be a lot of discussions of what went wrong, but honestly at the root it is the people and the fact that we do not have a shared reality to align things anymore.

 

[nec209]

15 minutes ago, CharonY said:

-Mencken. Again.

You are wrong about the far-right parties in Europe, they are extremists without question and are flirting with among other things deporting citizens with incorrect values. These are clearly unconstitutional, but the fact that they are discussing it amongst themselves (it was revealed by undercover journalists) tells you all you need to known.

Objections to Abortion and LGBTQ issues are superficial elements related  to virtue signaling your right credentials and it is being done in in Europe (and also Canada) to various degrees. You will note that during the election the GOP was actually not going hard on those as they were not winning issues. It was mostly used to make fun of transgender folks and related policies, though some folks (e.g. Musk) clearly had a more personal stance than others. Plus Hungary has authoritarian rule for some time and it might be worthwhile to look into their rhetoric and policies (e.g. ending recognition of transgenderism, censoring of LGBTQ positive contents in book and media and so on).

While I am not saying that I have a thorough understanding of the political right in Europe, I think that your assumptions might need some revisions.

I tend to believe that the assumption of decency and civility was a veneer to keep society aligned to some degree- if only strenuously. Once the idea arose that we can move beyond that and really be inclusive to everyone set out a number of alarm bells that have not stopped ringing since then. There was a weird shift in American politics, which could be followed in real-time on Fox News once Obama was elected and folks declared that the USA has become a post-racial nation.

There will be a lot of discussions of what went wrong, but honestly at the root it is the people and the fact that we do not have a shared reality to align things anymore.

 

Is it most those similar political parties Trump clones starting up in Canada, UK and Europe in upcoming election there more centrist not so far right like Trump but more centrist party?

They are mostly centrist party or left centrist with strict border closing and stoping immigration there.

I don’t think they are racist or sexist like Trump or want to ban abortion or LGBT like Trump they think if they close the border and stop immigration and start making things in their country that things get better.

Where Trump is racist and sexist and says racist and sexist all the time also Trump being anti abortion and anti LGBT.

 

Quote

These are clearly unconstitutional, but the fact that they are discussing it amongst themselves

Do they say sexist and racist things all the time like Trump? Do they pass laws making it only white man can get jobs? Is darker skin, darker eyes and hair look down on there?

[iNow]

1 hour ago, nec209 said:

What caused the US polar shift vote where political shift moved to the far right and MAGA movement is where the US is at now.

Lies, about the economy, inflation, and other things like xenophobia and border issues. 

[CharonY]

30 minutes ago, nec209 said:

Is it most those similar political parties Trump clones starting up in Canada, UK and Europe in upcoming election there more centrist not so far right like Trump but more centrist party?

No, they are not Trump clones. You are giving him way too much credit. Far-right sentiments have been on the rise already before Trump and there are a couple that are not centrist. They may have started out on the right but quite a few have descended into more than a bit of fascism lately. The AfD in Germany, for example has folks in the leadership who are demonstrably fascists (as in validated by courts).

32 minutes ago, nec209 said:

I don’t think they are racist or sexist like Trump or want to ban abortion or LGBT like Trump they think if they close the border and stop immigration and start making things in their country that things get better.

This has always been the deception and you are falling for it. Trump is not the works manifestation of this sentiment, just a symptom. Overtly it is always about things that are agreeable, such as the economy, or making lives better. The underlying sentiment is that the others are somehow making things worse and "poisoning our blood". They are not even trying to make things better. They just want it make worse for marginalized groups and therefore make the appearance that they are doing something. Meanwhile, they enrich themselves only.

 

35 minutes ago, nec209 said:

Do they say sexist and racist things all the time like Trump? Do they pass laws making it only white man can get jobs? Is darker skin, darker eyes and hair look down on there?

In many cases you cannot do that. But as I said, you can enact laws against folks without stated protection (e.g. transgender folks). You can and they do enact censorship and they reduce protections that limit discrimination against folks with darker skin. You do not need a law force people to discriminate. The sad truth is that without protection, folks do it on their own. Again Trump is not the cause, just a sad symptom.

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

Lies, about the economy, inflation, and other things like xenophobia and border issues. 

Which is helped by the inability of our species to remember stuff it seems. Note the absence of COVID-19 in everyone's mind despite its impact on all the elements (i.e., economy, inflation, immigration, etc.). This includes the disastrous handling of the pandemic itself. But if deaths don't convince anyone, I don't know what does. Probably some stupid tiktok dance or whatever.

 

[CharonY]

I think what is ultimately coming true is a reckoning that many of our social agreements in democratic systems have become undone. Traditional parties still operate under assumptions such as that democracy is fundamentally valued, or that not adhering to social norms (e.g. overt rather than covert racism/sexism/authoritarianism/criminal behaviour etc.) is going to be punished by voters.

I feel (and it comes from interacting with young academics a fair bit) there is a social change incoming, at a different rate and shape than we might be aware of. As someone has posted, idiocracy in action. Except at some point we will be the idiots.

[iNow]

Instead of being ostracized for bad behavior and losing access to protection from the tribe, people are finding acceptance for their bad behavior and specifically being rewarded for it within online tribes who help amplify it.

[sethoflagos]

One major difference between the far right in Europe and the US is that the religious fundamentalists have far less influence in the former, so gender and reproduction issues gain less traction than racism and immigration.

The hidden agenda is the same - economic deregulation and erosion of workers' rights.

[Airbrush]

4 hours ago, nec209 said:

What does second term of Trump mean for the US now?

What caused the US polar shift vote where political shift moved to the far right and MAGA movement is where the US is at now. I see some similar political parties starting up in Canada, UK and Europe in upcoming election there but they not so far right like Trump.

They are mostly centrist party or left centrist with strict border closing and stoping immigration there.

But Trump seem more hard core conservatives and ultra far right so the US voting block has moved to hard core conservatives and ultra far right views now.

I also don't see abortion or LGBT being thing in Canada, UK and Europe like it is in the US now where Trump brought it out of the closet in the open now. 

Trump seems to be descending rapidly into dementia and madness.  Most likely he gets removed within a year or two and JD Vance becomes president, who pardons Trump of all crimes.  Hopefully Europe will get together and support Ukraine when Trump cuts off aid to Ukraine.

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, Airbrush said:

Most likely he gets removed within a year or two

Yeah, I remember people talking about that in 2016.

[MigL]

4 hours ago, iNow said:

6 hours ago, nec209 said:

What caused the US polar shift vote where political shift moved to the far right and MAGA movement is where the US is at now.

Lies, about the economy, inflation, and other things like xenophobia and border issues. 

No.
The lies are the same as 2016 and 2020.
The difference is his opponent; he lost to a befuddled old man in 2020, but managed to beat two competent women in 2016 and 2024.
When is the American population going to lose their fear of a female President ?

[Peterkin]

6 hours ago, nec209 said:

What does second term of Trump mean for the US now?

A very bad outlook. Many Americans still lean on the idea that their constitution will protect them, but a constitution is only as good as the people sworn to uphold it - like the executive, the legislature and the Supreme Court. Those rusty old 'checks and balances' have already been scrapped by many states, and soon will be by the federal government.

It's not going to be another term of Trump, with its inconsistency, nepotism and incompetence. It's going to be a Vance government: sane, evil and capable. Read their agenda book and know exactly what to expect. 

6 hours ago, nec209 said:

What caused the US polar shift vote where political shift moved to the far right and MAGA movement is where the US is at now.

It was, ironically enough, written into the founding documents, erupted in the Civil War and has been festering ever since. Several administrations in the 20th century tried to repair some of the damage, but could not contend with the power of money and political factions ruthless in the exploitation of insecurity, anxiety and suspicion. The Confederate states had the power to entrench it.  Nixon's campaign organizers were very good this; Reagan's administration pushed the boat farther out on that high tide; the Bushes took full advantage; Trump surfed into the White house on it. Again.

Quote

I see some similar political parties starting up in Canada, UK and Europe in upcoming election there but they not so far right like Trump.

They've always been there, beneath the surface. We had chapters of the KKK back in the 1930's; Britain had a noisy Nazi party before WWII; the ultra nationalists in France and Germany ducked for cover, but never lost the faith. They're all trending rightward steadily - and powerward.   

[CharonY]

3 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

One major difference between the far right in Europe and the US is that the religious fundamentalists have far less influence in the former, so gender and reproduction issues gain less traction than racism and immigration.

The hidden agenda is the same - economic deregulation and erosion of workers' rights.

Good points, though I would add that in parts of eastern Europe the religious influence is there (and somehow weirdly aligned with Russian outlooks) in terms of gender issues.

 

36 minutes ago, MigL said:

The difference is his opponent; he lost to a befuddled old man in 2020, but managed to beat two competent women in 2016 and 2024.
When is the American population going to lose their fear of a female President ?

According to some of my female (and obviously highly competent) colleagues various degrees of "never" and "told you so".

[iNow]

49 minutes ago, MigL said:

No <…> managed to beat two competent women

I don’t disagree with you, but both things can be true at once. It’s not either/or. It’s both/and. 

[Night FM]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

No.
The lies are the same as 2016 and 2020.
The difference is his opponent; he lost to a befuddled old man in 2020, but managed to beat two competent women in 2016 and 2024.
When is the American population going to lose their fear of a female President ?

Kamala didn't have the popularity on social media that Trump did. Hillary won the popular vote, so I'd use that to argue that America doesn't have a fear of a female president. People simply aren't considering the factors that lead to Trump winning 2 elections.

[iNow]

46 minutes ago, Night FM said:

Kamala didn't have the popularity on social media that Trump did.

It’s amazing what happens when the world’s richest man owns X/Twitter and instructs their engineers to change the algorithm to prioritize all Trump related posts and content, then has that amplified by vast troll armies from authoritarian nation states and useful idiots across the US. 

[CharonY]

Also, folks seem to get less and less informed. There is a whole of related arrays of issues, but is that people apparently are not able to evaluate or retain information. Idiocracy in action, in fact.

Case in point, all the GOP folks who after Jan 6 said that Trump was done, should never be close to an office and Vance compared him literally to Hitler. Plus his own Chief of Staff. I suspect Orwell would find things  tad ridiculous at this point.

[Night FM]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

It’s amazing what happens when the world’s richest man owns X/Twitter and instructs their engineers to change the algorithm to prioritize all Trump related posts and content, then has that amplified by vast troll armies from authoritarian nation states and useful idiots across the US. 

If you say so. Regardless, my point stands. I'd argue the Democrats need a candidate who can galvanize followers on social media.

[iNow]

4 hours ago, Night FM said:

If you say so. Regardless, my point stands. I'd argue the Democrats need a candidate who can galvanize followers on social media.

They did. Your premise is trivially false 

[CharonY]

5 hours ago, iNow said:

They did. Your premise is trivially false 

I mean, technically they could have taken some lessons from the more successful playbooks. They could have lied and fearmongered more. They could have run a campaign detached from reality and claim that they never said that when challenged. Timeline might have been a bit too tight, but we learned that folks actually do not have permanent memory.

1 hour ago, Linkey said:

Anyway, good news are that the bitcoin will probably grow, and I hope you will start getting interested in it. The bitcoin can help the people overthrow the rule of the financial aristocracy.

This turns out to be one of the more depressing things I have read today.

[swansont]

Anecdote from social media, but I suspect we will see a lot of things similar to this from a complacent and under-informed electorate as reality sets in

 

[Peterkin]

12 hours ago, CharonY said:

Also, folks seem to get less and less informed. There is a whole of related arrays of issues, but is that people apparently are not able to evaluate or retain information.

The information media are largely responsible for what's happened - and all the very shit that's going to happen. The mainstream media treated Trump as if what he said and did were normal and acceptable; they very often translated his idiotic ramblings into language that resembled policies. They let stand unchallenged many of his lies and diversions. For ten years, they gave him the spotlight he requires to flourish, out of all proportion to other candidates; even covering his rallies while in the White House. They've had an unbalanced set of standards for Trump and everyone else; a ridiculously high tolerance for his toxic rhetoric, and severe judgment of his opponents.

(Some of them will regret that.)

Worse, the right-wing media have co-opted all sources of 'information' to half of the country, so that the people who have been pre-primed  for decades (by previous GOP candidates, by their state governments and propaganda organs) to believe the poison he spews never heard any other side. 

(Some of them will be richly rewarded for it.)

 

[CharonY]

2 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

The information media are largely responsible for what's happened - and all the very shit that's going to happen. The mainstream media treated Trump as if what he said and did were normal and acceptable; they very often translated his idiotic ramblings into language that resembled policies. They let stand unchallenged many of his lies and diversions. For ten years, they gave him the spotlight he requires to flourish, out of all proportion to other candidates; even covering his rallies while in the White House. They've had an unbalanced set of standards for Trump and everyone else; a ridiculously high tolerance for his toxic rhetoric, and severe judgment of his opponents.

Honestly, I think that even if they did more, their influence is largely gone (except for a smallish segment of the population). I suspect that many traditional political entities across the world might be losing ground, because they still assume that certain principles, including the role of media, is still valid. Meanwhile, my students quote TikTok as scientific sources. If that is any indication, the only thing that moves the needle is clickbait. The more outrageous, the better.

[Peterkin]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

I suspect that many traditional political entities across the world might be losing ground, because they still assume that certain principles, including the role of media, is still valid.

I have to, sadly, agree. The last day or so, I've read comments by normally intelligent Americans along the lines of: The Constitution protects us and the system of checks and balances have always worked. They don't seem to realize that constitution, or legal structure, is only as good as the people sworn to uphold them (Many of whom now already have a record of breaching those foundational principles.) What checks, what balances, when executive, legislature and high court are under the same fat thumb?  

[nec209]

Do you think there is going to be less money going to science and medical research now because of Trump?

NASA and the Military normally gets more money under republicans than Democratic Party.

Edited November 9 by nec209