What does it mean for the US now? Like what does second term of Trump mean for the US now?

[toucana]

8 hours ago, CharonY said:

Ok, can anyone tell me that we are not in bizarro world?

Trump world always feels to me rather like the nested reality simulations in this film:

 

 

Edited November 16 by toucana
Nested realities !

[MonDie]

On 11/6/2024 at 5:58 PM, CharonY said:

No, they are not Trump clones. You are giving him way too much credit. Far-right sentiments have been on the rise already before Trump and there are a couple that are not centrist. They may have started out on the right but quite a few have descended into more than a bit of fascism lately. The AfD in Germany, for example has folks in the leadership who are demonstrably fascists (as in validated by courts).

This has always been the deception and you are falling for it. Trump is not the works manifestation of this sentiment, just a symptom. Overtly it is always about things that are agreeable, such as the economy, or making lives better. The underlying sentiment is that the others are somehow making things worse and "poisoning our blood". They are not even trying to make things better. They just want it make worse for marginalized groups and therefore make the appearance that they are doing something. Meanwhile, they enrich themselves only.

 

In many cases you cannot do that. But as I said, you can enact laws against folks without stated protection (e.g. transgender folks). You can and they do enact censorship and they reduce protections that limit discrimination against folks with darker skin. You do not need a law force people to discriminate. The sad truth is that without protection, folks do it on their own. Again Trump is not the cause, just a sad symptom.

Which is helped by the inability of our species to remember stuff it seems. Note the absence of COVID-19 in everyone's mind despite its impact on all the elements (i.e., economy, inflation, immigration, etc.). This includes the disastrous handling of the pandemic itself. But if deaths don't convince anyone, I don't know what does. Probably some stupid tiktok dance or whatever.

 

 

On 11/6/2024 at 7:08 PM, CharonY said:

I think what is ultimately coming true is a reckoning that many of our social agreements in democratic systems have become undone. Traditional parties still operate under assumptions such as that democracy is fundamentally valued, or that not adhering to social norms (e.g. overt rather than covert racism/sexism/authoritarianism/criminal behaviour etc.) is going to be punished by voters.

I feel (and it comes from interacting with young academics a fair bit) there is a social change incoming, at a different rate and shape than we might be aware of. As someone has posted, idiocracy in action. Except at some point we will be the idiots.

I think a lot a lot of these modern challenges can be explained via the false consensus effect.  Maybe the term is more specific than what I'm remembering--I'm a rusty ten dollar wrench at this point.  The false consensus effect merely refers to the way that our reticence about expressing countervailing attitudes or beliefs skews most peoples' perceptions of what most other people think.  This is not adherence to norms, but the formation of those very norms, the breakdown of which leads to "antisocial behavior."

The point: What nec209 is describing might not be a constant. Politicians who wield these wedge issues can ride these false consensus shockwaves, and in the process they legitimize these ideas.  There is a double-edged sword though.  Most people have "implicit bias" and prejudice as the side-effect of cognitive "schemas," but the least penetrating minds tend to be the most susceptible.  The double-edged sword is that we can simultaneously hold negative stereotypes about the oppressed and their oppressors, which might explain our reasonable reticence.

Although this is certainly a shift, a shift into decline, for my country, there is perhaps a more nebulous battle over the legitimacy of leaders who ride these sentiments and the effectiveness of that strategy.  Will the dull-mindedness of the MAGA blunt instrument crash the whole machine before this idea spreads to new frontiers?

On 11/6/2024 at 4:20 PM, nec209 said:

What does second term of Trump mean for the US now?

What caused the US polar shift vote where political shift moved to the far right and MAGA movement is where the US is at now. I see some similar political parties starting up in Canada, UK and Europe in upcoming election there but they not so far right like Trump.

Apparently the RNC is trying to stop The Onion from buying the now failing InfoWars media outlet.  That should give you an idea of what is happening.

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 11/15/2024 at 10:07 PM, TheVat said:

Kennedy is so annoying in his uneven levels of rationality - used to do valuable environmental law stuff, and has some good ideas about Big Ag, ultraprocessed food,  etc.  There was a time I could admire his spirit. Then he goes off on some WiFi causes cancer rant, or whatever the crackpot du jour is, and needs to be returned to the padded room.  It's really sad.  

 

Everything now is one extreme or the other. Harris's campaign toward the middle has been rejected. America wants concrete answers sans details. The last thing they want is to be forced to think.

[iNow]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

The last thing they want is to be forced to think.

It’s called freedumb you pinko commie

[MonDie]

My bad.  It is Elon Musk who is getting involved in the case involving The Onion.
The Damage Report - Elon Musk Pulls Aggressive Stunt to Block The Onion's Purchase of InfoWars
 

On 11/15/2024 at 1:52 AM, TheVat said:

Good news for you:

Funding for NPR comes from dues and fees paid by member stations, underwriting from corporate sponsors, and annual grants from the publicly funded Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Most of its member stations are owned by non-profit organizations, including public school districts, colleges, and universities. NPR operates independently of any government or corporation, and has full control of its content.

All I can say is, if you like their content, please donate.  TFG and his minions could manage to scare off some corporate donors, so citizen donors will matter more.  

There must be a better way to fund brave journalists without giving to media outlets, public or private, that might have issues with overhead,  click-baity tactics, or stalwarts.  Corruption and war journalists are brave people with integrity.

 

On 11/13/2024 at 9:13 PM, exchemist said:

Well Trump is a troll so it's quite funny he got trolled by Putin. Putin will be overjoyed at the result. Autocrats all over the world will see this result as confirmation that democracy - both in the US and more widely - is a weak and flabby system whose time is up. And there is no doubt it is in retreat now. 

That is, electoral democracy, the version with the kinds of deregulation that followed the Citizens United ruling, is what is proving weak and flabby.  For that standpoint, it could be regarded as doing what it was supposed to do, which is serving corporate interests and protecting the economic status of the ruling class.  Putin the oligarch knows this.  They no doubt studied Marx's and Lenin's real views on capitalism and democracy in their school curricula.  It's americans who've been condition by derogating reporters to not know the difference.

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, MonDie said:

My bad.  It is Elon Musk who is getting involved in the case involving The Onion.
The Damage Report - Elon Musk Pulls Aggressive Stunt to Block The Onion's Purchase of InfoWars
 

There must be a better way to fund brave journalists without giving to media outlets, public or private, that might have issues with overhead,  click-baity tactics, or stalwarts.  Corruption and war journalists are brave people with integrity.

 

That is, electoral democracy, the version with the kinds of deregulation that followed the Citizens United ruling, is what is proving weak and flabby.  For that standpoint, it could be regarded as doing what it was supposed to do, which is serving corporate interests and protecting the economic status of the ruling class.  Putin the oligarch knows this.  They no doubt studied Marx's and Lenin's real views on capitalism and democracy in their school curricula.  It's americans who've been condition by derogating reporters to not know the difference.

As far as I know, there is no workable system of democracy other than electoral democracy. So I think your distinction is of little significance in practice.  

[CharonY]

Apparently Gaetz has withdrawn after it looks like he wouldn't get the votes (https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/11/21/us/trump-gaetz-news).

 

[geordief]

4 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Apparently Gaetz has withdrawn after it looks like he wouldn't get the votes (https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/11/21/us/trump-gaetz-news).

 

Corruptus inteterruptus.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Apparently Gaetz has withdrawn after it looks like he wouldn't get the votes

Specifically 4 votes in the senate and the most any nominee can lose is 3.

Now, we wait…

On 11/14/2024 at 12:24 PM, iNow said:

Part of it too is likely to get these obvious boneheads rejected primarily so their far more dangerous sleeper choices will get approved as seemingly saner fallbacks. 

 

[CharonY]

54 minutes ago, iNow said:

Specifically 4 votes in the senate and the most any nominee can lose is 3.

Now, we wait…

 

My guess is that they failed to get Anthony Hopkins and Chlamydia is too busy.

[toucana]

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

Apparently Gaetz has withdrawn after it looks like he wouldn't get the votes (https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/11/21/us/trump-gaetz-news).

 

A second factor was the disclosure by a 17 y/o girl that she had a second sexual encounter with Matt Gaetz the same night at a 2017 party involving a threesome - as reported today by CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/21/politics/matt-gaetz-second-sexual-encounter-minor/index.html
 

Quote

 

The woman who says she had sex when she was a minor with then-Rep. Matt Gaetz told the House Ethics Committee she had two sexual encounters with him at one party in 2017, sources familiar with her testimony tell CNN.

The woman, who was 17 years old at the time, testified that the second sexual encounter, which has not previously been reported, included another adult woman. She also testified to both sexual encounters in a civil deposition as part of a related lawsuit, sources said.

After being asked for comment for this story, Gaetz announced he was backing out as President-elect Donald Trump’s attorney general nominee.

 

 

[iNow]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

My guess is that they failed to get Anthony Hopkins and Chlamydia is too busy.

He went with Pam Bondy, Florida state attorneys general and loyalist personal lawyer to Trump in his trial

[CharonY]

Yeah, so someone who is already proficient in corruption (basically accepting a bribe for the Trump Uni case, IIRC).

[TheVat]

And she was one of Trump lawyers in his 2019 impeachment trial.  A less corrupt lawyer would disqualify themself on that basis alone, given that DOJ is supposed to be independent of the WH.  As it stands, the DOJ administration is filling up with former Trump legal team members.   

I think Hannibal Lecter would be a fine choice for EPA director, given his track record on closed loop recycling.

[Alex_Krycek]

RE: Jack Smith and the classified documents case.  Smith made the right move to "wind down" the cases. 

The logic is as follows:

1.  By voluntarily winding down before Trump's second term, Smith removes Trump's ability to "Fire Jack Smith!!!", a punitive personal victory Trump has broadcasted countless times.  

2.  Secondly, and most importantly, there is nothing to prevent the Special Counsel from refiling charges after Trump leaves office.  The case hasn't gone to trial, so there would be no double jeopardy if a future trial commenced, thus there are no constitutional reasons why the case couldn't be resumed in the future.   

3.  It respects the convention of not bringing charges against a sitting president.  

[swansont]

7 minutes ago, Alex_Krycek said:

RE: Jack Smith and the classified documents case.  Smith made the right move to "wind down" the cases. 

The logic is as follows:

1.  By voluntarily winding down before Trump's second term, Smith removes Trump's ability to "Fire Jack Smith!!!", a punitive personal victory Trump has broadcasted countless times.  

2.  Secondly, and most importantly, there is nothing to prevent the Special Counsel from refiling charges after Trump leaves office.  The case hasn't gone to trial, so there would be no double jeopardy if a future trial commenced, thus there are no constitutional reasons why the case couldn't be resumed in the future.   

3.  It respects the convention of not bringing charges against a sitting president.  

It’s also possible that this means he produces a report that will be released, which would not happen if he were fired.

[Trurl]

Are there any good things?

Like Elon Musk and Trump getting us to Mars before it revolves too far away.

We will have to see the tariff thing play out. Trump is not going to cripple the economy with a trade war. He is smart even if popular media makes him out to be an idiot. I read it to mean he just wants a better trade deal.

Elon Musk is smart too. Although the news clips I see of him he is always acting as an idiot. 
 

Did he make the right choice and buy Twitter and back Trump? Absolutely. I think he is all-in with space exploration.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Trurl said:

We will have to see the tariff thing play out. Trump is not going to cripple the economy with a trade war.

From where does your insight come? He did tariffs in his first term, and had to bail out farmers when China stopped buying US soybeans. 

“A U.S. Department of Agriculture study found the retaliatory tariffs reduced U.S. agricultural exports by $27 billion from mid-2018 when the tariffs were imposed to the end of 2019. Soybeans accounted for the majority of the decline”

https://taxfoundation.org/blog/tariffs-trade-war-agriculture-food-prices/

 

[Trurl]

54 minutes ago, swansont said:

From where does your insight come?

The Art of the Deal

Trump says he is all about making deals. He withdrew from the Iranian nuclear deal because he thought it wasn’t working. I don’t know the link but he also had a deal in the Middle East making peace deals and leveraging those peaceful countries against Iran.

So Trump is smarter than the CBS news portrays him. I don’t think he’d make a trade deal that would earn less money than the current trading deals. Even to boast manufacturing in America. We’d be stronger with unemployment but overall collapsing a larger market.

 

[iNow]

So wishful thinking and a book written by a ghost author. Got it. 

[Trurl]

35 minutes ago, iNow said:

 

So wishful thinking and a book written by a ghost author. Got it. 

 

Same as a prediction the other way 😝

We didn’t know we needed a wall until Trump built it. Then we see hundreds of people going around the wall😜

Mexico was going to pay for it. At least we got Mexico to hold some of the open border flow.

There you go: 2 promises kept.

 

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Trurl said:

Same as a prediction the other way 😝

We didn’t know we needed a wall until Trump built it. Then we see hundreds of people going around the wall😜

Mexico was going to pay for it. At least we got Mexico to hold some of the open border flow.

There you go: 2 promises kept.

 

It's hard for me to think well of those who forgive him for all he's done. I only needed one deal-breaker, and here you are accepting a mountain of them with praise.

You're too young to remember Nazis, you act like an incel Christian Nationalist by not recognizing the harm you do to women by denying them bodily autonomy, and you don't understand that the tariffs are to drive small business and the middle class into the ground. Fascists don't like a strong middle class, and since I'm guessing you and your family are part of the middle class, you just voted to hike your own taxes and costs, but you're white so you probably won't be deported. So you got that going for you.

[swansont]

9 hours ago, Trurl said:

Same as a prediction the other way 😝

Not really. It’s prediction based on past behavior.

You can believe, as iNow points out, a ghost-written book, or you can look at his numerous actual business failures. The latter carries more weight, IMO. It’s time we get past the myth that the very rich are geniuses. They keep showing us they’re not.

Quote

 

We didn’t know we needed a wall until Trump built it. Then we see hundreds of people going around the wall😜

Which was as bunch of people predicted. i.e. we knew we didn’t need a wall.

Quote

Mexico was going to pay for it. At least we got Mexico to hold some of the open border flow.

Same economic “genius” on display as saying China will pay the tariffs. 

[Phi for All]

10 hours ago, swansont said:

Same economic “genius” on display as saying China will pay the tariffs. 

He doesn't tell his own uneducated base that the tariffs are so he can exempt his friends and punish those who won't kneel: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/23/us/politics/trump-tariff-exemptions.html

Quote

 

In the face of pushback from companies reliant on foreign products, the Trump administration set up a process that allowed them to apply for special exemptions. The stakes were high: An exemption could relieve a company of tariffs as high as 25 percent, potentially giving it a big advantage over competitors.

That ignited a swift and often successful lobbying effort, especially from Washington’s high-priced K Street law firms, which ended up applying for hundreds of thousands of tariff exemptions. The Office of the United States Trade Representative, which handled exclusions for the China tariffs, fielded more than 50,000 requests, while the Commerce Department received nearly 500,000 exclusion requests for the tariffs on steel and aluminum.

 

Openly corrupt, morally barren, and a convicted felon. And so many people are OK with that, and want him as their leader.

[swansont]

5 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

He doesn't tell his own uneducated base that the tariffs are so he can exempt his friends and punish those who won't kneel: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/23/us/politics/trump-tariff-exemptions.html

Yeah, this may be about kickbacks for exemptions from businesses that would be harmed, and kickbacks for tariffs that help businesses.