Cuban Missile Crisis Hypothetical

[swansont]

56 minutes ago, toucana said:

Nope - The nuclear missile sites on Cuba were wholly under the control of Soviet technicians and military commanders. Cuban officers had no command authority or launch codes for the IRBMs, only the Kremlin could have authorised their use against the USA.

Fair enough - missiles would be launched from Cuba, rather than Cuba launching missiles.

It’s moot, though; Kennedy announced that any missiles launched from Cuba would be considered an attack by the Soviets.

[LaurieAG]

Just for those who are a bit slow.

So the big question is, if Cuba launched Russian missiles at US mainland targets, HOW MANY NUCLEAR WEAPONS WOULD THE US LAUNCH AT CUBA?

[toucana]

5 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

Just for those who are a bit slow.

So the big question is, if Cuba launched Russian missiles at US mainland targets, HOW MANY NUCLEAR WEAPONS WOULD THE US LAUNCH AT CUBA?

I'm just wondering if you understand where the island of Cuba lies in relation to mainland continental USA ? From the southernmost point in Key West in the state of Florida USA , it's about 90 miles to Cuba.

https://www.afar.com/places/southernmost-point-key-west

For reference, the standard operational range of an unrefueled US B2 Stealth bomber is about 6000 nautical miles (9,600Km), and that of a B52 Stratofortress bomber is about 8,800 miles(14,000Km)

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104482/b-2-spirit/

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104465/b-52h-stratofortress/

If the US military ever felt a compelling need to respond to a threat, or an actual attack from Cuba, they wouldn't bother launching highly expensive missiles at a target in such close proximity to their own territory. They would simply order SAC to scramble some bombers. At 650 m.p.h  (mach 0.84) it would take a B52 around 8.5 minutes to reach Cuba.

Edited November 21 by toucana
edited '8.5'

[swansont]

7 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

Just for those who are a bit slow.

So the big question is, if Cuba launched Russian missiles at US mainland targets, HOW MANY NUCLEAR WEAPONS WOULD THE US LAUNCH AT CUBA?

If this had happened in 1962, probably zero. It would have been considered an attack by the Soviet Union. As toucana has pointed out, the missiles were under Soviet control. They would have been launched from Cuba, but not by Cuba.

1 hour ago, toucana said:

If the US military ever felt a compelling need to respond to a threat, or an actual attack from Cuba, they wouldn't bother launching highly expensive missiles at a target in such close proximity to their own territory. They would simply order SAC to scramble some bombers. At 650 m.p.h  (mach 0.84) it would take a B52 around 8.5 minutes to reach Cuba.

Slightly longer, unless Key West had an airbase that could handle the planes (plus time to get to the desired altitude). Orlando airport used to be McCoy AFB, which had B-52 bombers stationed there. It was also where many of the U-2 recon flights originated for the crisis. 

[toucana]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Slightly longer, unless Key West had an airbase that could handle the planes (plus time to get to the desired altitude). Orlando airport used to be McCoy AFB, which had B-52 bombers stationed there. It was also where many of the U-2 recon flights originated for the crisis. 

Yes - and SAC is nowadays part of Air Force Global Strike Command AFSTRAT-AIR

https://www.afgsc.af.mil

All part and parcel of the Pentagon military command structure that Trump now wants to put under the control of a clueless FOX TV presenter. I do seem to recall that in periods of international tension that SAC used to keep a certain number of their B-52  bombers constantly airborne in holding patterns within US airspace, ready for instant deployment - so I'll assume that they had some units orbiting in the Florida Keys area !

Edited November 21 by toucana
'Florida Keys'

[zapatos]

11 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

Just for those who are a bit slow.

 

Do you think you can respond without sounding like a pompous asshole?

[TheVat]

12 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

Just for those who are a bit slow.

So the big question is, if Cuba launched Russian missiles at US mainland targets, HOW MANY NUCLEAR WEAPONS WOULD THE US LAUNCH AT CUBA?

Several members have answered your leading question, including me somewhere back there, and you seem to have ignored their replies and the reasoning behind them.   You aren't really having a conversation, AFAICT, so I'm moving on.  

[dimreepr]

33 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Do you think you can respond without sounding like a pompous asshole?

Probably not, It's like asking how many ball's in an over...

[swansont]

3 hours ago, toucana said:

Yes - and SAC is nowadays part of Air Force Global Strike Command AFSTRAT-AIR

https://www.afgsc.af.mil

All part and parcel of the Pentagon military command structure that Trump now wants to put under the control of a clueless FOX TV presenter. I do seem to recall that in periods of international tension that SAC used to keep a certain number of their B-52  bombers constantly airborne in holding patterns within US airspace, ready for instant deployment - so I'll assume that they had some units orbiting in the Florida Keys area !

It’s my understanding the ones on continuous patrol had nukes aboard for retaliation efforts. Part of the deterrence triad, which would survive a first strike. They could have done this for Cuba with conventional payloads, but I’ve not seen anything that confirms this.

[LaurieAG]

12 hours ago, TheVat said:

Several members have answered your leading question, including me somewhere back there, and you seem to have ignored their replies and the reasoning behind them.   You aren't really having a conversation, AFAICT, so I'm moving on.  

And several members, including yourself, also fail to understand what critical thinking is.

[StringJunky]

On 11/19/2024 at 5:02 PM, swansont said:

In the Cuban missile crisis they were nukes. That’s why it was a crisis.

My grandad, who was a chief technician on Avro Vulcans loaded with Blue Steel nuclear standoff  bombs then, said he was on 24 hour standby at that time. He said it was very close to happening.

Edited November 22 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

18 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

And several members, including yourself, also fail to understand what critical thinking is.

Critical thinking involves understanding and contextualizing questions and facts. I am very curious about what you think critical thinking is.

[LaurieAG]

About the only thing I will say about Critical Thinking on this site is that if others have other accounts on the other site I posted this hypothetical on it seems as if none of them use the same name on both sites. That means this site is where they say things that they wouldn't say on the other site and this site is where they dishonestly troll their biased opinions.

BYW, it appears that NATO leaders are worried that they will be drawn into a global nuclear war if RUSSIA retaliates on either the UK or US mainland.

[iNow]

I’m sorry you’re so much better than everyone else. Life must be very frustrating for you. 

[dimreepr]

9 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

About the only thing I will say about Critical Thinking on this site is that if others have other accounts on the other site I posted this hypothetical on it seems as if none of them use the same name on both sites. That means this site is where they say things that they wouldn't say on the other site and this site is where they dishonestly troll their biased opinions.

BYW, it appears that NATO leaders are worried that they will be drawn into a global nuclear war if RUSSIA retaliates on either the UK or US mainland.

Did you you miss the post about sabre rattling and how it's a sign of weakness? (I can't remember who posted it)

If Putin was confident, he would have used that speech, after his retaliation.

Feel free to use your critical thinking, to argue my point...

[swansont]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Did you you miss the post about sabre rattling and how it's a sign of weakness? (I can't remember who posted it)

It was exchemist, in a different thread.

[MigL]

On 11/22/2024 at 3:58 PM, StringJunky said:

My grandad, who was a chief technician on Avro Vulcans

The highlight of my summers, as a kid, was going to Niagara-on-the-Lake to watch the air show.
I would eat ice cream at Avondale Dairy and watch the small planes.
Then a huge shadow would cover us as the Avro Vulcan made its yearly low level overpass.
Fantastic.

 

19 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

it appears that NATO leaders are worried that they will be drawn into a global nuclear war if RUSSIA retaliates on either the UK or US mainland.

V Putin should be worried if Europe finally decides to grow some balls and say enough is enough.
Russia has the equivalent economy of Spain, have lost close to 700000 men, through killed or injured in action, still haven't taken Ukraine almost three years after the two week special operation was supposed to end, and had to call on North Korea for help.

I would think Germany, England, France, or even Italy would have taken the fight to Russia so that their citizens could see what is really happening.

I realize Ukraine won't do it, but a few Storm Shadow cruise missiles into the heart of Moscow would wake a lot of people up.
They fire an 'experimental' IRBM and everyone is wringing their hands; how many more do you think they have ?
And judging by the 'capabilities' of their Armed Forces so far, I would imagine their nuclear arsenal in in a similar sorry state.
Do you think V Putin and his generals don't realize this ?
All Russia has left is boisterous bravado.

[TheVat]

19 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

About the only thing I will say about Critical Thinking on this site is that if others have other accounts on the other site I posted this hypothetical on it seems as if none of them use the same name on both sites. That means this site is where they say things that they wouldn't say on the other site and this site is where they dishonestly troll their biased opinions.

The dishonesty is yours, darling.  I post with the precise same name on the SF dot com site.  I gave you honest feedback, directly addressing the fact that it would have been in 1962 the USSR attacking us FROM Cuban launch stands, and that our retaliation would have been, for obvious reasons easily grasped by those with critical thinking skills, against Russian targets and not Cuba. (others gave detailed analyses, pointing towards this scenario) I have noticed that an early sign of dementia is that people will start to accuse others of lacking cognitive skills that they themselves are starting to lose - a form of defensive projection driven by their anxiety over these losses.  I hope this is not your situation and that you stay well.

 

[iNow]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

All Russia has left is boisterous bravado.

And nukes, which IMO is a better explanation for European caution than absent spines. 

[LaurieAG]

On 11/23/2024 at 1:36 PM, iNow said:

I’m sorry you’re so much better than everyone else. Life must be very frustrating for you. 

You can't imagine half of it, watching the United States of America decay from a distance is very concerning for the rest of the world.

I come from a country where we don't have a death penalty because if one innocent person should die due to a failure in the due legal process it would be one innocent death too many. I live in a state where the politicians socialised the power system and made the hospital system free after WWI SO THAT THE FASCISTS WOULDN'T TAKE THEM OVER.

My family came to Australia from Ireland during the American Civil war and my grandfather wasn't born last century but the century before. I had a late great aunt who was born in the early 1890's and went to America as a young girl with her family in the late 1890's. She never married, became a nun, and in the early 1960's became a presentation nun called Sister Saint Anthony who resided at San Antonio TX until she passed away in the mid 1990's in a hospital in Fort Worth aged 104.

iNow, I've also known you for nearly 20 years and your attack is out of character, in fact the entire way the right of the left is blaming the real old left of the left (e.g. Bernie Sanders) who deserted them (about 8 million of them who didn't vote and the others who went to Trump) because they wouldn't do anything about the slaughter of the innocents occurring in Gaza. Also if Russia drops atomic missiles on Keiv/Kyiv, it won't start WWIII so the right of the left has instigated another potential massacre of the innocents due to its petty political machinations.

My late great aunt is probably turning in her grave at this very moment, over what a once great country and a great political party has stooped to in its decline.

Bernie Sanders

 

Edited November 24 by LaurieAG

[Phi for All]

!

Moderator Note

Let's drop the personal attacks. Focus on the arguments and stances, leave the people alone.

 

[dimreepr]

14 hours ago, MigL said:

Putin should be worried if Europe finally decides to grow some balls and say enough is enough.
Russia has the equivalent economy of Spain, have lost close to 700000 men, through killed or injured in action, still haven't taken Ukraine almost three years after the two week special operation was supposed to end, and had to call on North Korea for help.

I would think Germany, England, France, or even Italy would have taken the fight to Russia so that their citizens could see what is really happening.

I realize Ukraine won't do it, but a few Storm Shadow cruise missiles into the heart of Moscow would wake a lot of people up.
They fire an 'experimental' IRBM and everyone is wringing their hands; how many more do you think they have ?
And judging by the 'capabilities' of their Armed Forces so far, I would imagine their nuclear arsenal in in a similar sorry state.
Do you think V Putin and his generals don't realize this ?
All Russia has left is boisterous bravado.

The problem is, Hitler would have pressed the button, before he shot himself...

Putin would be no different (in that he can't lose) if he's backed into a corner, but he can be persuaded to back down, if he can remain a Judo grandmaster...

Edited November 24 by dimreepr

[iNow]

8 hours ago, LaurieAG said:

You can't imagine half of it, watching the United States of America decay from a distance is very concerning for the rest of the world.

You’re right. I can’t imagine how concerning it is watching from afar, primarily bc I’m forced to watch from within. 

Actually, I can imagine it from afar, too. It’s concerning from multiple perspectives.

[J.C.MacSwell]

On 11/19/2024 at 9:08 PM, swansont said:

President Kennedy doesn’t agree

“The characteristics of these new missile sites indicate two distinct types of installations. Several of them include medium range ballistic missiles, capable of carrying a nuclear warhead for a distance of more than 1,000 nautical miles.

…

This urgent transformation of Cuba into an important strategic base -- by the presence of these large, long-range, and clearly offensive weapons of sudden mass destruction -- constitutes an explicit threat to the peace and security of all Americas“

http://wp.stu.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2015/08/Kennedy-Speech-Cuban-Missile-Crisis.pdf

 

The Soviets agreed to remove the missiles. Can’t remove something that isn’t there.

Recon photos showing the missiles and also them being loaded onto ships for removal in November

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/photos.htm

 

38. November 5, 1962: Low-level photography documents loading of Soviet missiles at the main Mariel port facility for return to the USSR.  On the dock are vehicles later identified by NPIC as nuclear warhead vans.

Thanks. just saw this now. I thought it was just the sites constructed and the missiles on their way turned mid Atlantic.

[LaurieAG]

14 hours ago, iNow said:

You’re right. I can’t imagine how concerning it is watching from afar, primarily bc I’m forced to watch from within. 

Actually, I can imagine it from afar, too. It’s concerning from multiple perspectives.

I actually got to know an old American friend of my dads pretty well, a retired professor from Kansas State, who holidayed at his place for the 2 weeks before the election and, while our media is just as bad as in the US, at least we didn't get all the advertisements, I think that was why he was here in the first place LOL.