no free will = no reason to feel guilty

[raphaelh42]

For those who don't believe in free will, like me, do you feel guilty sometimes, do you drag some guilty feelings since long time?

That was my case before yesterday, i realized i don't believe in free will, so why should i feel guilty

That don't mean i don't feel sad anymore, and i wish some stuff would have gone differently

And that don't mean you can become a monster either

i guess thinking like that, can make that you don't have to feel guilty anymore, but if you don't want to feel sad anymore/counter this at least a bit for short times, you still have to try to do what you think is good

Edited November 18 by raphaelh42

[dimreepr]

This is basically Pascal's wager, you may as well believe in free will bc you've got nothing to loose.

You have to be responsible for you, you do what you do for a reason that you have agency over, claiming you don't have freedom to act, is an excuse.

Even if that choice leads to disaster, for instance, driving to the pub and drinking to much, knowing that imbibing alcohol limit's your ability to make a reasonable decision, freely.

Edited November 19 by dimreepr

[Eise]

15 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

For those who don't believe in free will, like me, do you feel guilty sometimes, do you drag some guilty feelings since long time?

I have good reasons to state that we have free will, but I seldom feel guilty. But I do feel responsible. It means that I must accept the consequences of my actions.

[raphaelh42]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

This is basically Pascal's wager

I did read a bit the Wikipedia article / Ctrl+F, i see nowhere mentioning free will doesn't exist, and that you should feel no guiltiness

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

claiming you don't have freedom to act, is an excuse

In my opinion, every single thing you do, is influenced by something, i believe in freedom, but since i believe everything has a reason, i consider myself like a spectator, i act but all of my acts are done because of influences, so i don't believe in free will

i don't lie to myself, i prefer being sad and afraid than lying to myself

i really don't believe in free will, so i think then i shouldn't feel guiltiness, lucky for me

Edited November 19 by raphaelh42

[dimreepr]

26 minutes ago, raphaelh42 said:

I did read a bit the Wikipedia article / Ctrl+F, i see nowhere mentioning free will doesn't exist, and that you should feel no guiltiness

You should learn how to read between the line's, it might make sense... 😉 

[swansont]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

You should learn how to read between the line's, it might make sense... 😉 

Or, you know, you could just make an effort to explain what you mean, so people don’t have to read between the lines. 

And not put the blame on others when they don’t get what you mean

3 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

I did read a bit the Wikipedia article / Ctrl+F, i see nowhere mentioning free will doesn't exist, and that you should feel no guiltiness

No, but that’s not the point. It’s analogous to Pascal’s wager, with free will taking the place of the existence of a supreme being

 

[zapatos]

3 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

i really don't believe in free will, so i think then i shouldn't feel guiltiness, lucky for me

Just because you don't think you should feel guilty doesn't mean you won't feel guilty. Emotions are not something humans invented that can be turned on or off just by deciding to do so. Push your mother down the stairs then tell me if you are able to suppress your feelings of guilt.

[Genady]

2 hours ago, zapatos said:

Push your mother down the stairs then tell me if you are able to suppress your feelings of guilt.

That is perhaps what he did and now tries to convince himself that he should stop feeling guilty. In his own words,

23 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

... drag some guilty feelings since long time...

That was my case before yesterday, i realized i don't believe in free will, so why should i feel guilty ...

... i wish some stuff would have gone differently ...

 

[raphaelh42]

On 11/18/2024 at 10:14 PM, raphaelh42 said:

i don't believe in free will, so why should i feel guilty

7 hours ago, swansont said:

It’s analogous to Pascal’s wager, with free will taking the place of the existence of a supreme being

sorry, i don't understand the relation between the two, neither what a god would have to do with what i said

 

6 hours ago, zapatos said:

Just because you don't think you should feel guilty doesn't mean you won't feel guilty.

I agree but in my case, the logic of the thought i had, the thread's title, allowed me not to feel guilty for nothing anymore

it's probably because i really believe in this logic.

 

6 hours ago, zapatos said:

Push your mother down the stairs then tell me if you are able to suppress your feelings of guilt.

Maybe if i wanted to do that and would do it, i wouldn't feel guilty afterwards

because why i would have done it, because i'm just a bad person? or because life made me do it? life drove me crazy?

 

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That makes me think about religions, i'm not sure, but it seems to me religions say free will do exist, then the logic would say you should feel guilty for bad things you've done, things that do not match the holy books' rules

 

i feel lucky not to believe in this, and listen to my heart and my mind instead

Edited November 20 by raphaelh42

[swansont]

52 minutes ago, raphaelh42 said:

sorry, i don't understand the relation between the two, neither what a god would have to do with what i said

Do you understand what an analogy is?

[dimreepr]

13 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

sorry, i don't understand the relation between the two, neither what a god would have to do with what i said

 

I agree but in my case, the logic of the thought i had, the thread's title, allowed me not to feel guilty for nothing anymore

it's probably because i really believe in this logic.

 

Maybe if i wanted to do that and would do it, i wouldn't feel guilty afterwards

because why i would have done it, because i'm just a bad person? or because life made me do it? life drove me crazy?

 

------

That makes me think about religions, i'm not sure, but it seems to me religions say free will do exist, then the logic would say you should feel guilty for bad things you've done, things that do not match the holy books' rules

 

i feel lucky not to believe in this, and listen to my heart and my mind instead

But logically, if you don't have free will your mind and heart is controlled by external factor's, so it's not your mind that you're listening to.

20 hours ago, swansont said:

Or, you know, you could just make an effort to explain what you mean, so people don’t have to read between the lines. 

And not put the blame on others when they don’t get what you mean

I could, but I had a feeling they weren't trying to understand, so what's the point; I'm always happy to explain if there's a genuine attempt to understand.

[Peterkin]

On 11/18/2024 at 4:14 PM, raphaelh42 said:

For those who don't believe in free will, like me, do you feel guilty sometimes, do you drag some guilty feelings since long time?

Of course; everyone except sociopaths have a conscience. Rejecting the idea of free will is a purely intellectual exercise - theoretical. In practice, we act and think as if we did control our actions; feel and are affected as if we were responsible for what we had done. And since we know only what we can do, not what we will do, we think as if we had meaningful decisions to make.

We may be intellectually aware of how all the billions and trillions or past events led inevitably to the present moment, but we don't experience life that way. We are formed by our biology, animal instincts and early nurture and all that we learn through life through interaction with members of our society and the environment. We absorb the world-view, morals and values of our culture. While we may be able to put all that aside in favour of pure logic in an essay, we can't do it in our living rooms, public squares and work-places.  

You live as if you had a will and a conscience, whatever words you substitute.  

[raphaelh42]

19 hours ago, swansont said:

Do you understand what an analogy is?

I did read a bit the definition and it seemed to me a synonym could be relation, link...

After thinking again it seems to me what you meant is that Pascal’s wager says free will exists and controls everything you do, and what i said is that it doesn't exist and it's the fatalism that controls everything you do

Please let me know if i still don't get it

 

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

But logically, if you don't have free will your mind and heart is controlled by external factor's, so it's not your mind that you're listening to.

i see it this way: external factors > your brain > act/think

So i get what you mean, think/mind listening = listen to external factors

I would say your mind/brain orders/filters external factors, depending on other external factors

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5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Of course; everyone except sociopaths have a conscience.

Excuse me but it seems to me that having no conscience means not being conscious and means being dead

You meant sociopaths have no regrets maybe

Maybe when they miss an opportunity to hurt someone, they regret having missed it?

Maybe when they miss the bus they regret not having wake up early?

Not feeling guilty doesn't have to mean you don't feel regrets

E.g. "it's not my fault but i wish i didn't do it"

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5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Rejecting the idea of free will is a purely intellectual exercise - theoretical.

Hmm for real not for me, i really believe 100% of things that i think and do, have a reason, they are just not coming purely "from me"*

I believe when you born you are like an empty box, some are bigger boxes than others, some are thicker

Then life puts stuff into this box, then the box will react, according to what life did put into the box

 

I think the good and the bad the box will do, is not caused by the cardboard, although it is acting

The question is why it is acting like this -> i shared my opinion above

*but yes i guess i understand, you meant e.g if you drop a glass = oops sorry my bad (reflex)

But why did you drop it... i mean reflexes can change

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Anyway it seems to me it's obvious that if you don't believe in free will, you "should" believe that you shouldn't feel guilt (doesn't mean you (manage to) don't feel it in the end)

I mean it's pure logic to me......

Edited November 20 by raphaelh42

[swansont]

11 minutes ago, raphaelh42 said:

I did read a bit the definition and it seemed to me a synonym could be relation, link...

After thinking again it seems to me what you meant is that Pascal’s wager says free will exists and controls everything you do, and what i said is that it doesn't exist and it's the fatalism that controls everything you do

Please let me know if i still don't get it

No. Pascal’s wager is about asymmetric outcomes from a choice to believe in something, or not.

In the case of free will, you must also account for the fact that society acts like it exists.

“free will exists and controls everything you do” seems to be contradictory.

[raphaelh42]

35 minutes ago, swansont said:

No. Pascal’s wager is about asymmetric outcomes from a choice to believe in something, or not.

Pascal's wager seems to be just about to suggest to believe in god, so if it/he/she exists, then you will get rewarded because you did believed in it, practiced rituals etc

sound like a coward practice to me

like not listening to what you think, but just act by the book, and hope the person who created universe will be nice with you if it exists

how can you really believe if the idea is "if it exists", this is contradictory imo

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Anyway i enjoyed sharing my thoughts with you guys, as always

[swansont]

2 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

Pascal's wager seems to be just about to suggest to believe in god, so if it/he/she exists, then you will get rewarded because you did believed in it, practiced rituals etc

But you can have a similar situation with free will. If you disbelieve it, you are rewarded with a clear conscience, even if it exists.

2 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

sound like a coward practice to me

One might make the same observation about not believing in free will.

[Peterkin]

6 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

Excuse me but it seems to me that having no conscience means not being conscious and means being dead

It doesn't. Consciousness and conscience are not synonymous.

 

6 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

You meant sociopaths have no regrets maybe

Maybe when they miss an opportunity to hurt someone, they regret having missed it?

No: that's a sadist, possibly. A sociopath simply doesn't care what damage he does while getting what he wants.

6 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

Not feeling guilty doesn't have to mean you don't feel regrets

E.g. "it's not my fault but i wish i didn't do it"

Regrets may be applied to anything that goes wrong, whether it's your fault or not. Guilt is for something you deliberately did, caused or allowed to happen when you could have prevented it. Remorse is for harm you caused carelessly, unaware of or indifferent to how it might affect someone else. 

6 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

Hmm for real not for me, i really believe 100% of things that i think and do, have a reason, they are just not coming purely "from me"*

I believe when you born you are like an empty box, some are bigger boxes than others, some are thicker

Then life puts stuff into this box, then the box will react, according to what life did put into the box

Fine. If it makes you happy, believe that.

[zapatos]

On 11/18/2024 at 3:14 PM, raphaelh42 said:

i guess thinking like that, can make that you don't have to feel guilty anymore, but if you don't want to feel sad anymore/counter this at least a bit for short times, you still have to try to do what you think is good

If you have no free will then you cannot decide how you want to feel or try to do what you think is good, or decide not to become a monster.

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

On 11/20/2024 at 1:23 PM, dimreepr said:

But logically, if you don't have free will your mind and heart is controlled by external factor's, so it's not your mind that you're listening to.

i see it this way: external factors > your brain > act/think

So i get what you mean, think/mind listening = listen to external factors

I would say your mind/brain orders/filters external factors, depending on other external factors

That doesn't argue my point, your logic is flawed.

[dimreepr]

On 11/21/2024 at 2:07 PM, dimreepr said:

i see it this way: external factors > your brain > act/think

I wonder if they knew that > means greater than? 

[raphaelh42]

when saying i believe free will doesn't exist, i meant i believe you never take a decision/feel something only because of you, 100% of you

but like it's all just a chain of events

maybe we were not talking about the same thing

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no free will = no reason to feel proud neither

i was not taking about instincts/reflexes

Edited November 27 by raphaelh42

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, raphaelh42 said:

when saying i believe free will doesn't exist, i meant i believe you never take a decision/feel something only because of you, 100% of you

but like it's all just a chain of events

maybe we were not talking about the same thing

 

Maybe

[iNow]

10 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

maybe we were not talking about the same thing

A terribly common dilemma on the topic of free will in basically all discussions and in all threads in basically all places outside of 2 post doc philosophers sipping midday latte in a cafe outside on a Tuesday.

[raphaelh42]

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Edited November 28 by raphaelh42

[Sensei]

17 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

no free will = no reason to feel proud neither

People feel “proud” or “guilty” about what they have done or not done. A simple emotional response for most people. And this depends on previous decisions. And these previous decisions depend on the previous historical decisions of you or someone else in an "infinite" number of loops and interconnections.

Parents say: "I am proud of you (because you perform well in school), as a reward here is your new smartphone." You got a good score because you chose to study instead of playing computer games etc. or because of cheating. You got a good result because the teacher taught you well (or ignored your cheats). Quite obvious connections between past events.

You are only on Earth because dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago.