Evolving Evolution

[studiot]

Just now, Luc Turpin said:

Again, more advanced organisms can intentionally modify their surroundings, creating feedback loops that impact evolutionary outcomes.

Are you implying that less advanced organisms cannot modify their surroundings ?

(Note I already asked you about the intentionally bit and you did not reply)

As for 'intentional evolution' there are plenty of examples where two species have become beneficially adapted to the needs of each other, without any apparent intention. There is a very good example in one of the Wiki articles I linked to concerning ants and a certain thorn bush.

 

Just now, Luc Turpin said:

DNA mutations are random changes that occur by chance,

Do you understand the meanings of random and chance and the difference between them ?

If you say they are changes that means that they are changed from something ?

Just now, Luc Turpin said:

Natural selection then "selects" the mutations that help organisms survive and reproduce, while those that are detrimental are eliminated.

You miss the entire point of natural selection since the process you describe cannot work unless the mutation (beneficial or otherwise)  is capable of being tranmitted to later generations.

[swansont]

32 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

Yes, I agree with both points in your post. Without critiquing your criticism of me, I simplified my argument to highlight that there may be intention behind the evolutionary process, rather than it being purely mechanical.

What specifically do you mean by intention? 

[TheVat]

5 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

However, even with the notion of only being encompassed by genes, single-celled organisms eventually evolved into more complex life forms, which challenges the conventional idea that evolution is purely unintentional,

The overwhelming majority of species on Earth were, and remain, single-celled, and did not eventually evolve into multicellular organisms.  This suggests there is no hidden teleology, as some organisms remain single-celled quite successfully adapted to their environments while others experienced pressures towards the cooperative aggregation, chemotaxis, and cell specialization that multicellular forms bring.  This article in Science may be helpful in looking at the transitions to multicellularity.

https://www.science.org/content/article/momentous-transition-multicellular-life-may-not-have-been-so-hard-after-all

There seems to be nothing particularly miraculous or difficult about this transition, given certain conditions, and many single-celled species are in fact already somewhat prepared for it.

Genetic comparisons between simple multicellular organisms and their single-celled relatives have revealed that much of the molecular equipment needed for cells to band together and coordinate their activities may have been in place well before multicellularity evolved.

Edited 10 hours ago by TheVat
fubar

[Luc Turpin]

1 hour ago, studiot said:

1-Are you implying that less advanced organisms cannot modify their surroundings ?

2- (Note I already asked you about the intentionally bit and you did not reply)

3- As for 'intentional evolution' there are plenty of examples where two species have become beneficially adapted to the needs of each other, without any apparent intention. There is a very good example in one of the Wiki articles I linked to concerning ants and a certain thorn bush.

 

4- Do you understand the meanings of random and chance and the difference between them ?

5-If you say they are changes that means that they are changed from something ?

6-You miss the entire point of natural selection since the process you describe cannot work unless the mutation (beneficial or otherwise)  is capable of being tranmitted to later generations.

1- I could argue that all organisms use both learned and innate behaviors to interact with their environment, but that would be controversial. Therefore, I'll assert that lower-level organisms shape their environment primarily through non-learned behaviors that occur by chance and contribute to their survival.

2- I believe I discussed intentional behaviors at length in my post, with imitation through learning being one of the key examples.

3- I also provided 16 references that suggest there is more to this than meets the eye. They indicate that skills are indeed learned and passed down through generations.

4- In my humble opinion, both random and chance essentially serve the same purpose.

5- I don't understand the question!

6- If I don’t fully grasp the need for traits to be transmitted through generations, why do I mention the gene pool?

1 hour ago, swansont said:

What specifically do you mean by intention? 

Intention to thrive and survive, which occurred in the begining through chance and not by intention

[swansont]

2 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

Intention to thrive and survive, which occurred in the begining through chance and not by intention

Using the word in its definition doesn’t really clarify much. 

What about intent to survive would circumvent natural selection? 

[studiot]

Just now, Luc Turpin said:

4- In my humble opinion, both random and chance essentially serve the same purpose.

There it is again that hidden agenda  -  purpose.

Interesting that you link either chance or random to any purpose.

[Luc Turpin]

6 hours ago, TheVat said:

The overwhelming majority of species on Earth were, and remain, single-celled, and did not eventually evolve into multicellular organisms.  This suggests there is no hidden teleology, as some organisms remain single-celled quite successfully adapted to their environments while others experienced pressures towards the cooperative aggregation, chemotaxis, and cell specialization that multicellular forms bring.  This article in Science may be helpful in looking at the transitions to multicellularity.

https://www.science.org/content/article/momentous-transition-multicellular-life-may-not-have-been-so-hard-after-all

There seems to be nothing particularly miraculous or difficult about this transition, given certain conditions, and many single-celled species are in fact already somewhat prepared for it.

Genetic comparisons between simple multicellular organisms and their single-celled relatives have revealed that much of the molecular equipment needed for cells to band together and coordinate their activities may have been in place well before multicellularity evolved.

The overwhelming majority of species on Earth were, and remain, single-celled, and did not eventually evolve into multicellular organisms.  This suggests there is no hidden teleology, as some organisms remain single-celled quite successfully adapted to their environments while others experienced pressures towards the cooperative aggregation, chemotaxis, and cell specialization that multicellular forms bring.  This article in Science may be helpful in looking at the transitions to multicellularity.

https://www.science.org/content/article/momentous-transition-multicellular-life-may-not-have-been-so-hard-after-all

There seems to be nothing particularly miraculous or difficult about this transition, given certain conditions, and many single-celled species are in fact already somewhat prepared for it.

Genetic comparisons between simple multicellular organisms and their single-celled relatives have revealed that much of the molecular equipment needed for cells to band together and coordinate their activities may have been in place well before multicellularity evolved.

This finding is truly surprising: the genetic program and molecular machinery were already in place long before they were needed. It almost suggests that life was "pre-equipped" with the essential tools, waiting for the right moment to evolve into greater complexity. 

Another intriguing discovery is that many genes seem to have emerged on Earth far earlier than traditional theories suggest. This challenges the prevailing scientific timeline, once again possibly presenting the notion of genes existing before their necessity became apparent. Source

Both results challenge mainstream evolutionary biology. So, are we on the verge of a shift in our understanding of biology, or are we merely encountering blips on the radar screen?

6 hours ago, swansont said:

What about intent to survive would circumvent natural selection? 

"It wouldn't bypass natural selection; rather, it would undergo the same evolutionary process, but with a distinct result.

5 hours ago, studiot said:

Interesting that you link either chance or random to any purpose.

I associate intention with purpose, viewing it as deliberate and meaningful rather than a product of chance or randomness.

Edited 4 hours ago by Luc Turpin

[swansont]

32 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

This challenges the prevailing scientific timeline, once again possibly presenting the notion of genes existing before their necessity became apparent

Both results challenge mainstream evolutionary biology.

 

No. There’s nothing that says a gene has to appear only after it would be an advantage. Neutral mutations exist. Eye color is a common example. If, somehow, blue eyes conferred an advantage, we wouldn’t have to wait for a mutation.

33 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

It wouldn't bypass natural selection; rather, it would undergo the same evolutionary process, but with a distinct result.

How so? 

[CharonY]

28 minutes ago, swansont said:

 

No. There’s nothing that says a gene has to appear only after it would be an advantage. Neutral mutations exist. Eye color is a common example. If, somehow, blue eyes conferred an advantage, we wouldn’t have to wait for a mutation.

How so? 

Not only that, if genes only arose out of necessity, it would invalidate classic genetics as well as the fundamentals of our current understanding of evolution. It would suggest that inheritable units only arise after interaction with the environment in a Lamarckian way, which would obviously turn our understanding of genetics on its head.

It would also to a large degree invalidate or at least heavily change the idea of selection, which postulates a shaping force on the gene pool, whereas a gene pool which would generate only beneficial traits is already magically pre-selected...?