making some potassium sodium tartrate

[KOLM]

Hi,

 

I have some tartaric acid crystal. Can anyone help me determine if my calculations are correct for making the rochelle salt? I figured for every mole in weight of the tartaric, I add each a mole of sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide, and stir in DI water. Maybe check for pH. Does that make sense? 

Thanks for your advice and expertise.

 

[chenbeier]

Sounds ok

[exchemist]

11 hours ago, KOLM said:

Hi,

 

I have some tartaric acid crystal. Can anyone help me determine if my calculations are correct for making the rochelle salt? I figured for every mole in weight of the tartaric, I add each a mole of sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide, and stir in DI water. Maybe check for pH. Does that make sense? 

Thanks for your advice and expertise.

 

Hmm, not sure about this. How do you know you will get the mixed metal salt,, rather than a random mixture of sodium and potassium tartrates? According to WIKI, Rochelle salt is made by adding NaOH to potassium bitartrate, i.e. potassium hydrogen tartrate, up to a pH of 8. This suggests you need a 2 step process, first generating the K bitartrate and then treating with NaOH. 
 

Generating the bitartrate suggests to me a process of gradually adding dilute KOH solution and stopping while the mixture is still acid, to make sure you only neutralise one end of the molecule. I have not looking into what pH that would be but no doubt you can look up the pKas for tartaric acid. The usual source of K bitartrate is the crystals naturally deposited in white wine barrels. There is potassium in the grapes and the acidity of wine is appropriately mild. 

Edited January 9 by exchemist

[chenbeier]

That is what he is doing.

In solution you have Na+, K+ and the [OOCCHOHCHOHCOO]2 - present.

It doesn't matter you add NaOH or KOH first to the tartratic acid.

Also possible you mix 1 mol sodium tartrate with 1 mol potassium tartrate in solution.

[exchemist]

2 hours ago, chenbeier said:

That is what he is doing.

In solution you have Na+, K+ and the [OOCCHOHCHOHCOO]2 - present.

It doesn't matter you add NaOH or KOH first to the tartratic acid.

Also possible you mix 1 mol sodium tartrate with 1 mol potassium tartrate in solution.

Quite right I was talking nonsense, once the acid is fully neutralised it’s just a solution with equal numbers of Na and K cations. Serves me right for trying to do chemistry with brain fog from my ‘flu’. 
 

But will crystallisation produce just Rochelle salt, or a mixture of Na/Na, K/K, and Na/K tartrates, and if just Rochelle salt why? Is it a happy accident of thermodynamics that the mixed salt is preferred? My instinct would be that either Na or K would fit the lattice better and the mixed salt might be disfavoured relative to the one with the better fit.

[KJW]

4 hours ago, exchemist said:

But will crystallisation produce just Rochelle salt, or a mixture of Na/Na, K/K, and Na/K tartrates, and if just Rochelle salt why? Is it a happy accident of thermodynamics that the mixed salt is preferred? My instinct would be that either Na or K would fit the lattice better and the mixed salt might be disfavoured relative to the one with the better fit.

This is reminiscent of the crystallisation of a racemic mixture, which can either crystalise as the racemate or as a mixture of enantiomeric crystals. This is especially relevant to this thread because the first resolution of a racemic mixture was of sodium ammonium tartrate by Louis Pasteur who manually separated the individual enantiomeric crystals into separate piles. It is said that he was quite fortunate to have found a racemic mixture that crystallises as a mixture of enantiomeric crystals because most racemic mixtures crystallise as the racemate.
 

 

[Ammaniya]

Haha, I guess your calculations seem generally correct! Just a comment: when mixing tartaric acid with sodium and potassium hydroxides, ensure the pH is carefully monitored. It's crucial for proper Rochelle salt formation. I'm quite surprised by how straightforward the process can be!
Good luck!

[John Cuthber]

4 hours ago, exchemist said:

My instinct would be that either Na or K would fit the lattice better and the mixed salt might be disfavoured relative to the one with the better fit.

The rochelle salt lattice only really works with equal numbers of both cations (you can substitute some NH4 or Rb in place of K if you like).
 

[KOLM]

Thanks, members. So helpful. I will get back to yous for more detailed numbers..........

[exchemist]

38 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

The rochelle salt lattice only really works with equal numbers of both cations (you can substitute some NH4 or Rb in place of K if you like).
 

Aha, so that would I suppose indicate that formation of the rochelle salt is in fact favoured thermodynamically, compared to the the two unmixed salt structures. Interesting. 

And of course what it is known for is its piezo-electric properties. I'll have to look up how all that arises.

(I'm just old enough to have had at one time a  hi-fi amplifier with 2 inputs for record player cartridge inputs, one for magnetic cartridges and one for crystal or ceramic ones.  Presume rochelle salt may have been use in the latter.)

[KOLM]

Heres what I got:

1st, the max solubility of rochelle salt is about 2.5M. So, that means 2.5Moles of tartaric, or 375g (FW of tartaric is 150.1).

 

Next, add 2.5 moles of KOH (FW = 56.1), or 140.3g. Lastly, 100g NaOH, (FW -= 40.00). 

 

Do this in enough DI water so as not to have violent splatter. Then qs to 1L, and cool, qs again.

 

Sounds about right, Chemists?

Thanks.  

[John Cuthber]

One possible  problem you will face is that potassium hydrogen tartrate isn't very soluble. 
Another is that the process of dissolving sodium hydroxide in water can be violent, even without acids present.

And your KOH is probably only about 85% pure- the rest is mainly water.

[KJW]

12 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

One possible problem you will face is that potassium hydrogen tartrate isn't very soluble.

Presumably, this means that sodium hydroxide should be added to the tartaric acid first, then potassium hydroxide.

 

12 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Another is that the process of dissolving sodium hydroxide in water can be violent

I've never seen the dissolution of sodium hydroxide in water be violent, although it does get quite hot. Perhaps adding water to powdered sodium hydroxide is violent, but who uses powdered sodium hydroxide (it's normally in pellet form).

 

12 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

And your KOH is probably only about 85% pure- the rest is mainly water.

Perhaps the KOH (and NaOH) should be assayed by titration.

 

[KOLM]

20 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

One possible  problem you will face is that potassium hydrogen tartrate isn't very soluble. 
Another is that the process of dissolving sodium hydroxide in water can be violent, even without acids present.

And your KOH is probably only about 85% pure- the rest is mainly water.

You probably meant to type Potassium sodium tartrate. It is quite soluble. Now, on the 85% KOH, I am using conc KOH and conc NaOH. KOH conc is 11.7N and NaOH is 19N, both +/-. Already in solution form. 

But anyway, good tips just the same. I will proceed to mix a small sample, maybe just 100mls, and see how it goes. I trust yous agree with my stoichiometry calculations, in theory anyway. Will report back!! Thanks for the support.  

Edited Thursday at 07:13 PM by KOLM

[John Cuthber]

21 hours ago, KOLM said:

You probably meant to type Potassium sodium tartrate. It is quite soluble.

Would you like another guess?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_bitartrate#History

If a chemistry expert tells  you something has a low solubility, then they are unlikely to be talking about something that's very soluble.

[KOLM]

On 1/17/2025 at 12:00 PM, John Cuthber said:

Would you like another guess?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_bitartrate#History

If a chemistry expert tells  you something has a low solubility, then they are unlikely to be talking about something that's very soluble.

 

Oh really?? So now I know you are an expert. No,I dont need to "take another guess". Rochelle has a 66% solubility (66g/100mls) @ 25 deg C, and to me that is very very soluble. (Low solubility is say, boric acid at about 5g/100mls in contrast). I am also a Chemistry expert in my field but have not had a need to boast about it. 

John, do you realize that "highly soluble" is a relative and subjective term? And your comment on how NaOH in water is considered violent is way off. No such thing. It gets hot, but in the industrial chem field that is not violent. Only sulfuric in H2O is considered violent. 

Come off your high horse, there is no calling for you to be offended from back/forth forum discussions about what is considered "highly soluble". Stick with your field. 

Edited 6 hours ago by KOLM

[John Cuthber]

8 minutes ago, KOLM said:

(Low solubility is say, boric acid at about 5g/100mls in contrast).

And potassium hydrogen tartrate is about ten times less soluble. (0.57 g/100 ml (20 °C))

So, we both agree 66% is very soluble.
We both agree that 0.57% is a low solubility.

So you should realise that when I am talking about something with a low solubility, I'm talking about potassium hydrogen tartrate rather than potassium sodium tartrate.
Especially when I explicitly say so.
 

 

On 1/15/2025 at 10:20 PM, John Cuthber said:

potassium hydrogen tartrate isn't very soluble. 

I'm not certain what you mean by ""

12 minutes ago, KOLM said:

So now I know you are an expert.

But the forum labels me as such; it wasn't ever

a secret.

And you guessed that I meant potassium sodium tartrate even though I said  potassium hydrogen tartrate.

And you did it even though I made the point that it's not very soluble, so I couldn't possibly have meant potassium sodium tartrate.
Also, Re.
 

18 minutes ago, KOLM said:

And your comment on how NaOH in water is considered violent is way off. No such thing. It gets hot, but in the industrial chem field that is not violent. Only sulfuric in H2O is considered violent. 

Guess again.
Plenty of reactions with water are violent, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster