Is it possible to know you existed at all without the ability reminisce/remember or a proper vessel of remembrance ?

[Migveg19]

 

 

 

Hello my name is Miguel Vega I want to start this by saying if anyone knows of any literature or further evidence of this theory being asked before please let me know it's been something I've thought of for a long time let the record show I also don't fancy myself a Genius or anything of that nature, but I've always wondered that if you were to forget something doesn't it almost seem (objectively of course to the person who's forgot) that the experience didn't happen at all of course I know that sounds dumb but hear me out, if let's say hypothetically you were to get blackout drunk and not remember any second of the time you had while intoxicated (which I've heard of happening many time) it's like the events of that time intoxicated didn't happen (ofcourse respectfully only to your own memory and not of the others who were present in these moments) Could that mean that someone who were to one day get amnesia or say maybe Alzheimer's having lived a life they would remember (at least to adult or at least a age where one remembers well ofcourse) would forget it all and  have therefore never known they ever had existed as though to them they were never born. However I understand that many people who get Alzheimer's and an amnesia patient  don't completely forget everything they have ever learned, like words and other memories, and that ofcourse we as bystanders know of them; wether it be through peers, family, history accounts, etc. that they did indeed exist.

 

 

  Well ok let me ask the same question more existentialy like this if we follow two main ideas of after life (i know there are more than two ideas but for the sake of the argument I will list only these two) the religious approach that there is life after death and the scientific approach that you are no more than a biological creature that is no more than the sum parts of its flesh and bones, and that you and everything's you are and will be are only chemical responses to stimuli in our universe, and once that last electrical signal fires off in your brain, your gone.

 

 well if you refer to our examples from earlier I made a point that if you don’t have the ability to remember, than it is though you never lived (per your own experience) at all. so in my head I would think if there’s no place  a vessel for your thoughts and memories if you will to exist and, an ability to remember then you can’t have known you even had a living experience in the first place “you can’t truly forget something with an ability to know it” Ik this quote might be up to interpretation but just wanted to make one lol. but to continue the same way, a person with Alzheimer’s only forgets their life, do to the brain essentially breaking down, the same way that if your brain completely turns off (dies) then the memory’s can’t be there correct, well I know personally I for sure with out a doubt (although there is no way to prove this as just looking onto someone else’s existence or taking their word for being conscious themselves) i am conscious and and know the experience I am living, therefore with everything we’ve talked about I assume I would not one day forget my life. or I would just be in the moment after  I  forgot it, and feel like I’ve never lived that life in the first place saying that does that mean as long as you are truly conscious and here to experience your existence that you can’t come to a point of losing the vessel that does the remembering therefore losing those memories and experiences or that you will make it to an after life that will make you forget it all anyway?. But after all this, does this mean that the idea that there is something after death an, afterlife perhaps or, a place where our consciousness continues, the vessel not truly gone or can there be a reason I’m completely wrong about the subject? 

 

but on to the religious side of it does that mean there is eternal life after death and that god is real? I believe in god (although I am a avid thinker and believer in science) based on time bending experiences that can not be calculated by science I’ve had (story for another time) , can this theory prove an existence of a after life and higher dimensional entity  that created our souls and consciousness to outlast the universe itself. 

 

In the topic of religion and the Bible to be exact Isaiah 65:17, which states, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind” does this mean we will forget or just not care to remember anymore (never truly forgetting of  course ) or if you think about the entire idea of god and the ability to literally create our entire universe time and all, couldn’t he just make our memories “poof” disappear while still being able to experience them. either way i thinks it’s a good theory that could use some light shed on it, maybe help understand what we as intelligent beings have in this life and therefore after the fact. 

 

In conclusion I know my writing is probably atrocious, but I’ve had this thought and other riveting thoughts on my mind for a long time and although I tried to explain it to anyone I know, they always seem lost, as do I sometimes don’t get me wrong, about the ideas and make me kinda mad and feel as though they are all to dumb, for lack of a better word, to truly at least process what I’m telling them think of it with an open mind beyond their prejudices and belief systems , that is why I bring it to all those great minds out there. I just wanna get a good response about it or maybe some literature or other studies done upon the same subject. I close with this quote because I I resonate with it so “ I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious“ -Albert Einstein 

[exchemist]

12 hours ago, Migveg19 said:

 

 

 

 

Hello my name is Miguel Vega I want to start this by saying if anyone knows of any literature or further evidence of this theory being asked before please let me know it's been something I've thought of for a long time let the record show I also don't fancy myself a Genius or anything of that nature, but I've always wondered that if you were to forget something doesn't it almost seem (objectively of course to the person who's forgot) that the experience didn't happen at all of course I know that sounds dumb but hear me out, if let's say hypothetically you were to get blackout drunk and not remember any second of the time you had while intoxicated (which I've heard of happening many time) it's like the events of that time intoxicated didn't happen (ofcourse respectfully only to your own memory and not of the others who were present in these moments) Could that mean that someone who were to one day get amnesia or say maybe Alzheimer's having lived a life they would remember (at least to adult or at least a age where one remembers well ofcourse) would forget it all and  have therefore never known they ever had existed as though to them they were never born. However I understand that many people who get Alzheimer's and an amnesia patient  don't completely forget everything they have ever learned, like words and other memories, and that ofcourse we as bystanders know of them; wether it be through peers, family, history accounts, etc. that they did indeed exist.

 

 

  Well ok let me ask the same question more existentialy like this if we follow two main ideas of after life (i know there are more than two ideas but for the sake of the argument I will list only these two) the religious approach that there is life after death and the scientific approach that you are no more than a biological creature that is no more than the sum parts of its flesh and bones, and that you and everything's you are and will be are only chemical responses to stimuli in our universe, and once that last electrical signal fires off in your brain, your gone.

 

 well if you refer to our examples from earlier I made a point that if you don’t have the ability to remember, than it is though you never lived (per your own experience) at all. so in my head I would think if there’s no place  a vessel for your thoughts and memories if you will to exist and, an ability to remember then you can’t have known you even had a living experience in the first place “you can’t truly forget something with an ability to know it” Ik this quote might be up to interpretation but just wanted to make one lol. but to continue the same way, a person with Alzheimer’s only forgets their life, do to the brain essentially breaking down, the same way that if your brain completely turns off (dies) then the memory’s can’t be there correct, well I know personally I for sure with out a doubt (although there is no way to prove this as just looking onto someone else’s existence or taking their word for being conscious themselves) i am conscious and and know the experience I am living, therefore with everything we’ve talked about I assume I would not one day forget my life. or I would just be in the moment after  I  forgot it, and feel like I’ve never lived that life in the first place saying that does that mean as long as you are truly conscious and here to experience your existence that you can’t come to a point of losing the vessel that does the remembering therefore losing those memories and experiences or that you will make it to an after life that will make you forget it all anyway?. But after all this, does this mean that the idea that there is something after death an, afterlife perhaps or, a place where our consciousness continues, the vessel not truly gone or can there be a reason I’m completely wrong about the subject? 

 

but on to the religious side of it does that mean there is eternal life after death and that god is real? I believe in god (although I am a avid thinker and believer in science) based on time bending experiences that can not be calculated by science I’ve had (story for another time) , can this theory prove an existence of a after life and higher dimensional entity  that created our souls and consciousness to outlast the universe itself. 

 

In the topic of religion and the Bible to be exact Isaiah 65:17, which states, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind” does this mean we will forget or just not care to remember anymore (never truly forgetting of  course ) or if you think about the entire idea of god and the ability to literally create our entire universe time and all, couldn’t he just make our memories “poof” disappear while still being able to experience them. either way i thinks it’s a good theory that could use some light shed on it, maybe help understand what we as intelligent beings have in this life and therefore after the fact. 

 

In conclusion I know my writing is probably atrocious, but I’ve had this thought and other riveting thoughts on my mind for a long time and although I tried to explain it to anyone I know, they always seem lost, as do I sometimes don’t get me wrong, about the ideas and make me kinda mad and feel as though they are all to dumb, for lack of a better word, to truly at least process what I’m telling them think of it with an open mind beyond their prejudices and belief systems , that is why I bring it to all those great minds out there. I just wanna get a good response about it or maybe some literature or other studies done upon the same subject. I close with this quote because I I resonate with it so “ I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious“ -Albert Einstein 

Yes, your writing is atrocious - and long-winded. Can you try again, this time writing no more than a couple of short paragraphs and in complete sentences, i.e. using full stops? At the moment I find myself giving up trying to work out what you are trying to say after about 6 lines.

[m_m]

To the OP.

I think you have gone too far. What about deep sleep? In both cases "cogito, ergo sum" doesn't apply. Do I think when I sleep? -No. Am I when I sleep?

[Phi for All]

16 hours ago, Migveg19 said:

if you don’t have the ability to remember, than it is though you never lived (per your own experience) at all.

This is a bad assumption that you don't bother to support in any way. And it's easily falsified as well. If you can't remember, you're still standing there breathing, aware that you're alive and sensing the world around you. That doesn't happen if you never lived at all.

[Migveg19]

4 hours ago, exchemist said:

after

 

17 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

This is a bad assumption that you don't bother to support in any way. And it's easily falsified as well. If you can't remember, you're still standing there breathing, aware that you're alive and sensing the world around you. That doesn't happen if you never lived at all.

Hello thanks for your feedback, I am starting to realize that my writing is hard to follow. but let me explain what I was saying, I know that you existed even if you come to forget your memories. but what I’m saying is that if you will one day forget your experiences, it will feel to you, as though you never lived them at alll. If all the experiences and memories you ever had are to leave you at onc, it would almost be like to you as a the being who’s experiences and memories are gone, that you never even existed having no memory of ever existing. So in conclusion you are the only one making assumptions and now that I explained it I hope it seems more plausible now. Also there are a lot of things I mention to support this but if you have more doubts feel free to ask thanks

[Genady]

6 minutes ago, Migveg19 said:

If all the experiences and memories you ever had are to leave you at once ...

... you quickly die, because your brain will not know how to control functions of your body.

[Migveg19]

3 hours ago, m_m said:

I think you have gone too far. What about deep sleep? In both cases "cogito, ergo sum" doesn't apply. Do I think when I sleep? -No. Am I when I sleep?

Well I’m not sure exactly what your point is, here but if I’m reading this correctly. Then yes you do think while you sleep dreams or even knowing your sleeping. but if you look, i say that death  is the complete deterioration of the brain therefore the complete breakdown of our neural pathways ergo memory’s gone. some what like having Alzheimer’s and your brain deteriorating making you lose memories. but if you come to lose a memory it would seem as tho u never even lived that memory in the first place ,like when you don’t know you did something till you are reminded by someone saying “I remember when you did this” and it reminds you of something that you didn’t even remember existed. like if they might not have reminded you of it you never would have remembered, and it would seem like to you that it never happend. but if I haven’t fully adessed you concerns with my theory then feel free to let me know I will do my best to clear up any confusion thanks

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, Migveg19 said:

 

Hello thanks for your feedback, I am starting to realize that my writing is hard to follow. but let me explain what I was saying, I know that you existed even if you come to forget your memories. but what I’m saying is that if you will one day forget your experiences, it will feel to you, as though you never lived them at alll. If all the experiences and memories you ever had are to leave you at onc, it would almost be like to you as a the being who’s experiences and memories are gone, that you never even existed having no memory of ever existing. So in conclusion you are the only one making assumptions and now that I explained it I hope it seems more plausible now. Also there are a lot of things I mention to support this but if you have more doubts feel free to ask thanks

You haven't really explained anything, in either of your post's.

But in answer to the topic title, how long of a memory are you talking about? And how does it relate to epistemology? 

For instance, I can't remember what I had for tea yesterday, bc I drank too much; but I do know how to dress myself, despite that... 😉

[Phi for All]

40 minutes ago, Migveg19 said:

if you will one day forget your experiences, it will feel to you, as though you never lived them at alll.

This part seems wrong because you'll still be in the world you experienced. If you wake up in bed, it may not seem familiar but you'll still know you're in a bed and just woke up. You'll know what the items in the room are for even if you don't remember buying them or using them. It will NOT be as if you never lived these experiences.

Unless you're taking away all knowledge, in which case this is a really pointless discussion.

Have you ever been under a general anaesthesia, the kind that puts you to "sleep"? Once you've been put under, you realize it's not like sleep at all. In sleep, you're aware when you wake up that you've sleeping for some amount of time. Under anaesthesia, it seems like no time has passed at all, as if you weren't present during the experience. I think, in your scenario, it's much more likely that it would feel like sleep. You wake up and know that you have no memory of the experiences you've been through, but you know that you did because you're in a bedroom in a bed with a person's things around you, maybe even pictures of you. It wouldn't be as if you never lived before.

[m_m]

26 minutes ago, Migveg19 said:

Well I’m not sure exactly what your point is, here but if I’m reading this correctly. Then yes you do think while you sleep dreams or even knowing your sleeping. but if you look, i say that death  is the complete deterioration of the brain therefore the complete breakdown of our neural pathways ergo memory’s gone. some what like having Alzheimer’s and your brain deteriorating making you lose memories. but if you come to lose a memory it would seem as tho u never even lived that memory in the first place ,like when you don’t know you did something till you are reminded by someone saying “I remember when you did this” and it reminds you of something that you didn’t even remember existed. like if they might not have reminded you of it you never would have remembered, and it would seem like to you that it never happend. but if I haven’t fully adessed you concerns with my theory then feel free to let me know I will do my best to clear up any confusion thanks

Ok, thank you. Sorry, if my comment seemed rude. 

My point is that when one sleeps, or under anesthesia, there's no self awareness. 

*

If we assume, that self awareness is "I", there's no "I" when I sleep. This "I" exists only in memories of other people. So, I think that we are memories of each other. 

Edited Monday at 05:03 PM by m_m

[swansont]

58 minutes ago, m_m said:

Ok, thank you. Sorry, if my comment seemed rude. 

My point is that when one sleeps, or under anesthesia, there's no self awareness. 

*

If we assume, that self awareness is "I", there's no "I" when I sleep. This "I" exists only in memories of other people. So, I think that we are memories of each other. 

You don’t dream, aware of yourself?

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, m_m said:

My point is that when one sleeps, or under anesthesia, there's no self awareness. 

As I said earlier, there is a difference. Have you experienced both? With sleep, you have awareness of the passage of time. If you wake too early, you know it even before you look at a clock. There are dreams. There is awareness of being uncomfortable in your current position, so you change position. 

Under anaesthesia, you're usually counting backwards for a few seconds, and the next thing you know, a nurse is telling you the four hour operation went beautifully. It seems completely unreal that you were totally unaware for that long. 

[Migveg19]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

This part seems wrong because you'll still be in the world you experienced. If you wake up in bed, it may not seem familiar but you'll still know you're in a bed and just woke up. You'll know what the items in the room are for even if you don't remember buying them or using them. It will NOT be as if you never lived these experiences.

Unless you're taking away all knowledge, in which case this is a really pointless discussion.

Have you ever been under a general anaesthesia, the kind that puts you to "sleep"? Once you've been put under, you realize it's not like sleep at all. In sleep, you're aware when you wake up that you've sleeping for some amount of time. Under anaesthesia, it seems like no time has passed at all, as if you weren't present during the experience. I think, in your scenario, it's much more likely that it would feel like sleep. You wake up and know that you have no memory of the experiences you've been through, but you know that you did because you're in a bedroom in a bed with a person's things around you, maybe even pictures of you. It wouldn't be as if you never lived before.

You have no idea what im writing about as do most people who say im “wrong” because if you go and read the main post and especially the comments because I explain myself there. but you obviously you don’t even understand what you yourself are saying because if you do wake up without memory of these experiences then it will be like you never lived them there Is no information in your brain or “vessel of remembrance” that helps connect you to these items. And literally if you have no memory of buying or using these items it does indeed make it feel if you had never experienced them before literally my guy. And my entire point of this thesis (if you actually read and tried to understand it to completion) is that if you were to forget your life by death (meaning entirety of it) then would you even know you existed, would you ever have felt existence (yes I know you did exist so you would have at a point before your memory went away.) but if you can’t remember it then you would feel as though it never happed like a big long sleep that you were actually awake for and fully conscious for but never knew happend because all memories of it would be gone so does that mean since I obviously am experiencing life and am actively creating memories that I for sure know I won’t forget ( you have to take my word for this because like I said earlier that it would be  normal, and you would feel like you had a normal life that you are experiencing but would one day forget it, in turn making it feel like it never did happen to you. and people outside of you own experience wouldn’t be able to know if you were truly gonna remember it all) that I would never forget and have a vessel to remember with like you brain does with neural pathways. after your brain is gone my question was actually, does this prove a after life or will your “self”  (the consciousness) have someplace to go where you can further be a vessel for your memories and experiences. So not really a pointless conversation is it it makes you think how can we remember if the thing that makes memories will disintegrate one day? If you still don’t understand please let me know I would love to further this conversation thanks

[Phi for All]

21 minutes ago, Migveg19 said:

If you still don’t understand please let me know I would love to further this conversation thanks

You keep repeating what you've already said, and you don't address what I've been saying. You don't answer questions. Why do you think this is a conversation?

I reject your basic premise, which seems to be:

23 minutes ago, Migveg19 said:

if you do wake up without memory of these experiences then it will be like you never lived them

I definitely don't think the former will be like the latter. I think there is a distinct difference between not remembering experiences and never having lived them, and I tried to explain why to support my arguments. 

[Migveg19]

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

I definitely don't think the former will be like the latter. I think there is a distinct difference between not remembering experiences and never having lived them, and I tried to explain why to support my arguments. 

Yes you are correct. and for yet another time, I will say I never said you didn’t live these experiences you definitely did. let’s, say an entire life of them but what I’m saying is that if you come to forget them wether it be due to the deterioration of your brain in death or otherwise, just loss off that experience in one’s mind (vessel) then to that person as far as they know they never lived that experience even tho yes yes yes they did indeed live it sir. Let give one more example, think back to being a baby you can’t remember being a newborn neither can I, to us it feels like it never even happened although it did ofcourse. so the same way it felt like you were never a baby because you have no memory of it. if your neural pathways, the reason you have memory in the first place and the place memories are stored deteriorate then you can’t remember the experiences therefore no memory, no idea you even had them in the first place. And tbh you don’t understand answers that are given to you not the other way around, your just asking questions that don’t help you understand the entire premise itself. but nevertheless again I hope you understand and if not lmk I will explain it again lol

[TheVat]

"Even people whose lives have been made various by learning sometimes find it hard to keep a fast hold on their habitual views of life, on their faith in the Invisible - nay, on the sense that their past joys and sorrows are a real experience, when they are suddenly transported to a new land, where the beings around them know nothing of their history, and share none of their ideas - where their mother earth shows another lap, and human life has other forms than those on which their souls have been nourished. Minds that have been unhinged from their old faith and love have perhaps sought this Lethean influence of exile in which the past becomes dreamy because its symbols have all vanished, and the present too is dreamy because it is linked with no memories.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner

[dimreepr]

16 hours ago, Migveg19 said:

Yes you are correct. and for yet another time, I will say I never said you didn’t live these experiences you definitely did. let’s, say an entire life of them but what I’m saying is that if you come to forget them wether it be due to the deterioration of your brain in death or otherwise, just loss off that experience in one’s mind (vessel) then to that person as far as they know they never lived that experience even tho yes yes yes they did indeed live it sir. Let give one more example, think back to being a baby you can’t remember being a newborn neither can I, to us it feels like it never even happened although it did ofcourse. so the same way it felt like you were never a baby because you have no memory of it. if your neural pathways, the reason you have memory in the first place and the place memories are stored deteriorate then you can’t remember the experiences therefore no memory, no idea you even had them in the first place. And tbh you don’t understand answers that are given to you not the other way around, your just asking questions that don’t help you understand the entire premise itself. but nevertheless again I hope you understand and if not lmk I will explain it again lol

When you die, does your life mean nothing?

When you forget, does that experience mean nothing?

If so, how?

Listen to George... 😉 @TheVat +1

Edited Tuesday at 02:22 PM by dimreepr

[Migveg19]

55 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

When you die, does your life mean nothing?

When you forget, does that experience mean nothing?

If so, how?

Listen to George... 😉 @TheVat

I’m not saying nor have ever said that life had no meaning y’all just refuse to understand me due to ignorance. I’m basically giving a reason why there must me an experience after the one of this life. Otherwise the existence of the experience to yourself would feel like it never happend. do to not having a vessel like your brain to remember them with, ergo no memory no idea you even had the experience, no idea you even existed in the first place. And if you don’t know you exist how do I know right now then. so yes gorege is smart, but only speaking of what one might feel, matters, or cares, about their experience, once jolted into a new one. and I’m not really interested in what happens after death, because I can’t really tell you, no one can for sure. but what I’m trying to make a point about is that science (which I believe in) has said that you just cease to exist but how can that be, based on the theory I have presented? Anyway if everyone would try to understand and ask good questions, instead of trying to discredit points that have nothing to do with my theory they could to, understand what I’m thinking of. Thanks again ask me questions not be difficult lol

15 hours ago, TheVat said:

Even people whose lives have been made various by learning sometimes find it hard to keep a fast hold on their habitual views of life, on their faith in the Invisible - nay, on the sense that their past joys and sorrows are a real experience, when they are suddenly transported to a new land, where the beings around them know nothing of their history, and share none of their ideas - where their mother earth shows another lap, and human life has other forms than those on which their souls have been nourished. Minds that have been unhinged from their old faith and love have perhaps sought this Lethean influence of exile in which the past becomes dreamy because its symbols have all vanished, and the present too is dreamy because it is linked with no memories.”
― George Eliot, Silas Marner

I’m not saying nor have ever said that life had no meaning y’all just refuse to understand me due to ignorance. I’m basically giving a reason why there must me an experience after the one of this life. Otherwise the existence of the experience to yourself would feel like it never happend. do to not having a vessel like your brain to remember them with, ergo no memory no idea you even had the experience, no idea you even existed in the first place. And if you don’t know you exist how do I know right now then. so yes gorege is smart, but only speaking of what one might feel, matters, or cares, about their experience, once jolted into a new one. and I’m not really interested in what happens after death, because I can’t really tell you, no one can for sure. but what I’m trying to make a point about is that science (which I believe in) has said that you just cease to exist but how can that be, based on the theory I have presented? Anyway if everyone would try to understand and ask good questions, instead of trying to discredit points that have nothing to do with my theory they could to, understand what I’m thinking of. Thanks again ask me questions not be difficult lol Also if you look at my other answers you’ll get a better idea of what I talk about in this one.

22 hours ago, m_m said:

Ok, thank you. Sorry, if my comment seemed rude. 

My point is that when one sleeps, or under anesthesia, there's no self awareness. 

*

If we assume, that self awareness is "I", there's no "I" when I sleep. This "I" exists only in memories of other people. So, I think that we are memories of each other. 

No you’re completely fine my guy. But yes, and awareness is exactly what I’ve been talking about in this whole post. The same way you are put to sleep and have no awareness or feeling of the time that has passed is the way I say it would feel like you never existed at all. All though your brain is still working and the neurons in your brain are still taking their pathways. Therefore you still have a vessel of remembrance (a way to remember that you exist) even if in the moment you wouldn’t know you did. But if in the case of those pathways completely deteriorating (dying) then where would these memories exist and how could you access them, how could you know you had experienced them at all? You couldn’t. Told feel nothing nor know of you existence at all. Therefore since I do know of my existence in this moment and I feel I’m on the way to death and wondering about an afterlife where I wouldn’t have a vessel, then I must have one after death somewhere where I will be able to look back on this life and know I existed. So in short there is either an afterlife, or a place where our consciousness must go, to continue to house our memories and experiences to know we where even there in the first place. hope that explains it lol

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Migveg19 said:

I’m not saying nor have ever said that life had no meaning y’all just refuse to understand me due to ignorance. I’m basically giving a reason why there must me an experience after the one of this life. Otherwise the existence of the experience to yourself would feel like it never happend. do to not having a vessel like your brain to remember them with, ergo no memory no idea you even had the experience, no idea you even existed in the first place.

Yesterday will always affect tomorrow, it both needs you and doesn't give a shit.

I understand you, you think heaven is to come, and so you ignore the heaven you're experiencing now; I'm content with now and I don't really care what you think, unless you can make a lot more sense, and actually support your argument... 🙄 

 

[m_m]

22 hours ago, swansont said:

You don’t dream, aware of yourself?

Yes, when I don't sleep, I'm not aware of myself.

21 hours ago, Phi for All said:

As I said earlier, there is a difference. Have you experienced both? With sleep, you have awareness of the passage of time. If you wake too early, you know it even before you look at a clock. There are dreams. There is awareness of being uncomfortable in your current position, so you change position. 

Under anaesthesia, you're usually counting backwards for a few seconds, and the next thing you know, a nurse is telling you the four hour operation went beautifully. It seems completely unreal that you were totally unaware for that long. 

Yes, I agree with you, the experience is different. But sometimes when you wake up in the middle of the night, there's a feeling that it's almost dawn and time to wake up.

What I am talking about is the feeling of presence here. 

Anyway, I don't remember myself when I'm not present with my mind. But other people do remember. So, I think we are memories. But when I am present, and feel this awareness, I have responsibility. And, I think, it's important to leave good memories.

1 hour ago, Migveg19 said:

No you’re completely fine my guy. But yes, and awareness is exactly what I’ve been talking about in this whole post. The same way you are put to sleep and have no awareness or feeling of the time that has passed is the way I say it would feel like you never existed at all. All though your brain is still working and the neurons in your brain are still taking their pathways. Therefore you still have a vessel of remembrance (a way to remember that you exist) even if in the moment you wouldn’t know you did. But if in the case of those pathways completely deteriorating (dying) then where would these memories exist and how could you access them, how could you know you had experienced them at all? You couldn’t. Told feel nothing nor know of you existence at all. Therefore since I do know of my existence in this moment and I feel I’m on the way to death and wondering about an afterlife where I wouldn’t have a vessel, then I must have one after death somewhere where I will be able to look back on this life and know I existed. So in short there is either an afterlife, or a place where our consciousness must go, to continue to house our memories and experiences to know we where even there in the first place. hope that explains it lol

Thank you, my friend. I totally agree with your point of view. 

I think our experience is alive, until other people remember us. 

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, m_m said:

Yes, when I don't sleep, I'm not aware of myself.

Did you mean to say this?

Anyway, when I dream, I am aware of myself. And from others’ descriptions of dreams, it’s clear that they are aware of themselves. If you aren’t aware of yourself, perhaps that’s unusual? In any event, it’s not universal.

[m_m]

Just now, swansont said:

Did you mean to say this?

Anyway, when I dream, I am aware of myself. And from others’ descriptions of dreams, it’s clear that they are aware of themselves. If you aren’t aware of yourself, perhaps that’s unusual? In any event, it’s not universal.

My mistake, I was to say that I am not aware of myself, when I sleep. 

Well. If people were aware of themselves, when they sleep, they wouldn't snore, for example.

I want to explain my understanding of the term "self awareness". For me it is connected with responsibility for one's actions. I don't want to say control, but exactly responsibility. 

 

 

[swansont]

7 minutes ago, m_m said:

Well. If people were aware of themselves, when they sleep, they wouldn't snore, for example.

That’s not obvious to me why, and people can wake themselves because of their snoring. Have you ever been awakened by a noise? I have. How can that happen if you aren’t aware?

[m_m]

Just now, swansont said:

That’s not obvious to me why, and people can wake themselves because of their snoring

I'm not sure they can 

Quote

 

Have you ever been awakened by a noise? 

 

This coin has two sides: sometimes I wake up because of noise, and sometimes I don't hear anything. 

[swansont]

38 minutes ago, m_m said:

I'm not sure they can 

It must happen often enough if people are trying to treat it

https://sleep-doctor.com/blog/does-your-own-snoring-wake-you-up-from-sleep/

https://www.tmjandsleep.com.au/articles/does-own-snoring-wake-you-up-from-sleep/

38 minutes ago, m_m said:

This coin has two sides: sometimes I wake up because of noise, and sometimes I don't hear anything. 

Not really, since your position is that it doesn’t happen. If it happens at all, it means you’re aware. Not waking up doesn’t necessarily mean you didn’t hear, since you can ignore sounds that aren’t surprising or threatening.