The movement to destroy American culture and traditions.

[Phi for All]

8 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

If you consider it “fun” to mock minorities within your society and events in history that caused a lot of suffering, then you are clearly lacking an appropriate moral compass.

For too long, many of these issues have been pushed on us as political, where a vote can decide, but whether you respect someone as a human enough to use non-hurtful terms is a moral issue. Persecuting fellow humans for the color of their skin or who they love or how much money they have isn't a right vs left, liberal vs conservative decision, it's a right vs wrong matter. 

[iNow]

[Janus]

10 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

If you consider it “fun” to mock minorities within your society and events in history that caused a lot of suffering, then you are clearly lacking an appropriate moral compass.

 

Like the "fun" of calling a Finnish person a "China-Swede" while lifting up the sides of your eyes with your fingers. 

[swansont]

8 hours ago, exchemist said:

Regarding a "king", it seems to me the majority of US voters are yearning for someone to rule like a king: capriciously, without regard for the other institutions of the state: an absolute monarch. Certainly it seems to me that the USA in 2025 is a lot closer to an absolute monarchy than, say, the UK, Denmark or Spain. 

Trump did not get a majority, and the victory margin was quite thin. And we need to wait and see how much buyer’s remorse sets in. I suspect it won’t be that long until finding people who admit voting for him will be harder.

[exchemist]

3 hours ago, swansont said:

Trump did not get a majority, and the victory margin was quite thin. And we need to wait and see how much buyer’s remorse sets in. I suspect it won’t be that long until finding people who admit voting for him will be harder.

I hope that is true. 

[Markus Hanke]

13 hours ago, Phi for All said:

For too long, many of these issues have been pushed on us as political, where a vote can decide, but whether you respect someone as a human enough to use non-hurtful terms is a moral issue.

Exactly +1

And in reverse, there are also issues being portrayed as moral choices that in reality have little to nothing to do with morality, eg drug addiction. 

Also, the title of this thread has it exactly backwards - it is awareness of these issues that ensures society can continue to improve and thus remain stable, rather than such awareness being a destructive influence. Historically, many of the great empires (eg the Romans, the Ottomans, the USSR,…) failed and collapsed precisely because they didn’t address their issues of inequality and moral inconsistency. History provides us with all the necessary data points.

[Ariodos]

5 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

Exactly +1

And in reverse, there are also issues being portrayed as moral choices that in reality have little to nothing to do with morality, eg drug addiction. 

Also, the title of this thread has it exactly backwards - it is awareness of these issues that ensures society can continue to improve and thus remain stable, rather than such awareness being a destructive influence.

Historically, many of the great empires (eg the Romans, the Ottomans, the USSR,…) failed and collapsed precisely because they didn’t address their issues of inequality and moral inconsistency. 

History provides us with all the necessary data points.

One such way is through different hobbies like rokubet-oferta

 

It seems history is repeating itself and we still haven't learned. Who knows, maybe the next great project to fix society will start with understanding these problems

[Markus Hanke]

1 hour ago, Ariodos said:

It seems history is repeating itself and we still haven't learned.

That’s because the human psyche is still the same; we are still subject to and affected by the scourges of greed, hatred and delusion to varying degrees. Our technology and culture has evolved, but not our minds, so no matter what political system we put in place, the same human tendencies will continue to crop up, and thus things like fundamentalism, extreme nationalism etc etc will continue to manifest themselves when the conditions are conducive. 

[JohnDBarrow]

18 hours ago, swansont said:

Trump did not get a majority, and the victory margin was quite thin. And we need to wait and see how much buyer’s remorse sets in. I suspect it won’t be that long until finding people who admit voting for him will be harder.

5 million American popular votes is "thin "? What about Don's getting 312 electoral votes to the anti-gun dame's 226? 

[swansont]

3 minutes ago, JohnDBarrow said:

5 million American popular votes is "thin "?

Out of ~155 million votes, it would be small, but since he won by less than half of that, it's thin.

Compared with the margin of recent elections it’s quite thin. Not as thin as 2016, which was negative, or Bush in 2000, but smaller than other elections dating back to Carter in 1976, when Carter got only slightly more than half of the votes that Trump did (40.8 million vs 77.3)

3 minutes ago, JohnDBarrow said:

What about Don's getting 312 electoral votes to the anti-gun dame's 226? 

That says a lot about how the electoral college is structured. Biden got 306 four years ago, and there were no shouts about a mandate. Obama got 365 in 2008, and we didn’t get the mandate nonsense we’re getting now.

Did Kamala run on an “anti-gun” platform, or is that some more “alternative” truth?

[CharonY]

5 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

That’s because the human psyche is still the same; we are still subject to and affected by the scourges of greed, hatred and delusion to varying degrees. Our technology and culture has evolved, but not our minds, so no matter what political system we put in place, the same human tendencies will continue to crop up, and thus things like fundamentalism, extreme nationalism etc etc will continue to manifest themselves when the conditions are conducive. 

A newer problem is that technology has evolved to be better affect our minds. Similar to a pathogen getting a better foothold on the host. That in part will likely feed into our base proclivities and in turn be a path towards extremism.

[Markus Hanke]

10 hours ago, CharonY said:

A newer problem is that technology has evolved to be better affect our minds. Similar to a pathogen getting a better foothold on the host. That in part will likely feed into our base proclivities and in turn be a path towards extremism.

Yes, that’s a very good point too +1

[Phi for All]

21 hours ago, CharonY said:

A newer problem is that technology has evolved to be better affect our minds. Similar to a pathogen getting a better foothold on the host. That in part will likely feed into our base proclivities and in turn be a path towards extremism.

If we embrace the OP's suggestion, to create a movement to destroy the sad and regrettable bits of American culture, perhaps technology can be used to help organize it. I think this is partly why there was a surge of effort to ban TikTok, to keep Average Joe from realizing how many others are sick of the hate and division TFG has perpetrated on the US. 

Protest movements are going to increase. They take time, but they work. We finally got the right to vote for JohnDBarrow's mom, and by the mid-70s she could have her own bank account or a credit card in her name only. Protest drove those gains in equal rights, the ones JDB doesn't think  his mom should have had. 

Progress (aka NOT stuck in the mud) requires that we destroy or ignore the old culture and traditions when they no longer serve us. If they only serve the hateful, greedy, or jealous, they probably deserve destruction. 

Thanks to the OP for suggesting this movement. What other elements of American culture and tradition need to be destroyed?

[CharonY]

29 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I think this is partly why there was a surge of effort to ban TikTok, to keep Average Joe from realizing how many others are sick of the hate and division TFG has perpetrated on the US. 

I don't think so. From what I have read, it is more likely that folks did not like an dopamine echo chamber that is not somehow under US control (or at least under control from allies). Meta, Twitter etc. doing pretty much the same things is mighty fine. Plus TFG has proposed to reverse the ban. There is also the same rabbithole of radicalization within TikTok, perhaps even faster due to nature of the platform.

32 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Thanks to the OP for suggesting this movement. What other elements of American culture and tradition need to be destroyed?

Unlearning the past, perhaps?

[Phi for All]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

I don't think so. From what I have read, it is more likely that folks did not like an dopamine echo chamber that is not somehow under US control (or at least under control from allies). Meta, Twitter etc. doing pretty much the same things is mighty fine. Plus TFG has proposed to reverse the ban. There is also the same rabbithole of radicalization within TikTok, perhaps even faster due to nature of the platform.

I think the only reason he'd lift the ban is because his own magats are flooding the app right now. If it's a great app for the left to use to mobilize their efforts against fascism, it's an even better tool for fascists. He's not going to lift the ban and leave it for the left to use.

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

Unlearning the past, perhaps?

Yes, and learning it for the first time. I saw a clip of Tom Hanks from a few years back, who was a huge history buff in school, where he was absolutely flabbergasted to learn about the Tulsa Race Massacre. He heard about it through social media, and couldn't believe how many other people hadn't heard about it. 

[CharonY]

12 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

Yes, that’s a very good point too +1

There is a win-win-win for the techbros here. They essentially make money from all the outrage and radicalization, they make folks dependent on a service that is not actually critical, but now people cannot live without them and they get to use their tools to manipulate the masses.

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

I think the only reason he'd lift the ban is because his own magats are flooding the app right now. If it's a great app for the left to use to mobilize their efforts against fascism, it's an even better tool for fascists. He's not going to lift the ban and leave it for the left to use.

That is why I am very skeptical of narratives painting social media as a tool of progress.

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

Yes, and learning it for the first time. I saw a clip of Tom Hanks from a few years back, who was a huge history buff in school, where he was absolutely flabbergasted to learn about the Tulsa Race Massacre. He heard about it through social media, and couldn't believe how many other people hadn't heard about it. 

The idea that Americans are a bit ignorant even of their own history (and with no recognition of countries beyond those they invaded) is a bit of a narrative that has been circulating in Europe for quite a while. But I think it was not seen as some malicious but more of a mix of arrogance and lack of certain types of education (you know, the "uncultured" American trope). However, I think technology has facilitated revisionism on a grand scale. The AfD is such an example in Germany, in the US they are actively dismantling progress made over the last decades and are trying to push and mandate  alternative realities.

It is a bit like techbro version of 1984 meets consumerism of brave new world, met with lethargy of Wall-E (just without the empathy).

[exchemist]

22 minutes ago, CharonY said:

There is a win-win-win for the techbros here. They essentially make money from all the outrage and radicalization, they make folks dependent on a service that is not actually critical, but now people cannot live without them and they get to use their tools to manipulate the masses.

That is why I am very skeptical of narratives painting social media as a tool of progress.

The idea that Americans are a bit ignorant even of their own history (and with no recognition of countries beyond those they invaded) is a bit of a narrative that has been circulating in Europe for quite a while. But I think it was not seen as some malicious but more of a mix of arrogance and lack of certain types of education (you know, the "uncultured" American trope). However, I think technology has facilitated revisionism on a grand scale. The AfD is such an example in Germany, in the US they are actively dismantling progress made over the last decades and are trying to push and mandate  alternative realities.

It is a bit like techbro version of 1984 meets consumerism of brave new world, met with lethargy of Wall-E (just without the empathy).

I think you have hit on it, actually. It is the internet, and social media specifically, that have led to the rise of something called the "troll". Casual rudeness and the expression of hatred and facile, childish political opinions have become normal and socially accepted. Trolling has become the language of politics. The USA now has government by troll. The tech bros of course promote a different narrative: one of "democratisation" of opinion -  and the establishing of "truth" by what is popularly believed on social media, rather that what can be objectively substantiated.  This was the substance of that recent,  self-serving article Peter Thiel wrote for the Financial Times. 

I don't know what it will take to make society realise where this leads. Maybe another world war. Or maybe we can learn to be mature about social media. There are signs in the next generation (people like my son who is 21) that they realise this and can discard the junk factoids and the abuse, in a way that perhaps people of @JohnDBarrow's age bracket often do not, especially if poorly educated. 

[CharonY]

21 minutes ago, exchemist said:

There are signs in the next generation (people like my son who is 21) that they realise this and can discard the junk factoids and the abuse, in a way that perhaps people of @JohnDBarrow's age bracket often do not, especially if poorly educated. 

I am not sure. I deal with a lot of young, theoretically well-educated people. Of course there is a mix, but overall the trend I am seeing doesn't make me feel very optimistic. I suspect there will be an equilibrium of sorts at some point and we might have a better idea about what is going on. But right now things are not moving where I thought (and would have liked) them to. I think, I am getting somewhat disillusioned about the powers of education, as we clearly see mechanisms diminishing them. Ultimately, it will be responsibility of parents to control the media diet of their kids and foster things like curiosity and build a foundation for critical thinking that we can fortify and expand in university. But again, right now it seems were are implementing all the mechanisms to prevent just that.

[zapatos]

I cannot believe JohnD is being allowed to so openly troll here. He badly needs a vacation from this place, and we need a vacation from him.

[exchemist]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

I am not sure. I deal with a lot of young, theoretically well-educated people. Of course there is a mix, but overall the trend I am seeing doesn't make me feel very optimistic. I suspect there will be an equilibrium of sorts at some point and we might have a better idea about what is going on. But right now things are not moving where I thought (and would have liked) them to. I think, I am getting somewhat disillusioned about the powers of education, as we clearly see mechanisms diminishing them. Ultimately, it will be responsibility of parents to control the media diet of their kids and foster things like curiosity and build a foundation for critical thinking that we can fortify and expand in university. But again, right now it seems were are implementing all the mechanisms to prevent just that.

Well OK my son is at uni in Scotland and may not be typical of American young people but he and his peers are getting a bit chary of social media and of spending too much time online. Some of the mental health epidemic among this cohort during lockdown etc seems to be linked to excessive consumption of social media, doomscrolling etc. He has deleted a number of apps and last autumn did a "disconnection" exercise, walking from Glasgow to Fort William with a tent and backpack and his phone off. It took him 6 days and he said was very restorative - and beautiful, apart from a rainy trudge across Rannoch Moor. I get the feeling his generation is learning that social media can be addictive and needs to be handled like alcohol, with monitoring of consumption and taking positive steps to take breaks from it. 

But that is speculating about the next generation. Meanwhile we have todays trolls and idiots........

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

I get the feeling his generation is learning that social media can be addictive and needs to be handled like alcohol, with monitoring of consumption and taking positive steps to take breaks from it. 

I hope so. Generally speaking, I found that parts of the Europe are doing better than the US on the university level, though there is a slide, for many reasons, but one of them is social media. The interesting bit is that surveys are showing that about half of GenZ do think that social media are detrimental for them, at the same time they have a hard time giving them up. In that regard your son is clearly far more insightful than a big segment of his peers. And somewhat incidentally, I found that students who had strict limitations on electronics and social media use, significantly outperform their peers. I suppose we'll see where things go eventually.

[exchemist]

8 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I hope so. Generally speaking, I found that parts of the Europe are doing better than the US on the university level, though there is a slide, for many reasons, but one of them is social media. The interesting bit is that surveys are showing that about half of GenZ do think that social media are detrimental for them, at the same time they have a hard time giving them up. In that regard your son is clearly far more insightful than a big segment of his peers. And somewhat incidentally, I found that students who had strict limitations on electronics and social media use, significantly outperform their peers. I suppose we'll see where things go eventually.

Well recognising the problem is half the battle. Let’s hope.

[CharonY]

What if the problem turns out that we are just too dumb?

[Markus Hanke]

10 hours ago, exchemist said:

I don't know what it will take to make society realise where this leads. Maybe another world war.

I doubt it. We’ve already had two world wars, countless regional wars, and a couple of genocides - just in the past 120 or so years. Society doesn’t seem to have learned any lessons from these, much less taken those lessons to heart.

[Sensei]

Don't you have your Truth Social for dull minded? That's where you should be writing this nonsense. The guy in one sentence talks about how many wars he will end, and just a few seconds later he talks about starting a war with Panama, starting a war with the Denmark and starting a war with Canada. And you clap your hands? You should have cognitive dissonance, because the guy said something mutually exclusive!

 

Yet another example. He wants to fight inflation. By raising commodity prices? Didn't you have math in elementary school? If you have a U.S. product that costs $100 and a Chinese equivalent for $50, and you impose 100% duty taxes on the latter, U.S. customers won't have the option of choosing cheaper-worse or expensive-better (even if they were physically such, which isn't so sure) - they'll have both products at the same high price so physically they will pay more than now!

 

As a result, the financial sector and U.S. commodity producers reacted very warmly to such promises, which resulted in a rise in stock prices on the stock exchanges, as they correctly read between the words. Unlike the Americans who voted for him - they didn't understand a single word of what was in store for them!

Edited 6 hours ago by Sensei