Christian nationalism (split from The movement to destroy American culture and traditions.)

[Markus Hanke]

14 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Same here. 2 years.
Musk is no longer welcome in Europe.

I wonder what the US would actually end up looking like if somehow their brand of Christian Nationalism was in fact fully implemented. Seems to me it wouldn’t be too far off a Republic of Gilead type situation. How could anyone actually want to live in that type of society? This is just beyond me. Maybe they simply don’t understand the ramifications of what it is they are advocating for. 

Even in Atwood’s novels, many of the main architects of the RoG are portrayed as secretly loathing what they had created. As they say, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

[m_m]

50 minutes ago, Markus Hanke said:

I wonder what the US would actually end up looking like if somehow their brand of Christian Nationalism was in fact fully implemented. Seems to me it wouldn’t be too far off a Republic of Gilead type situation. How could anyone actually want to live in that type of society? This is just beyond me. Maybe they simply don’t understand the ramifications of what it is they are advocating for. 

Even in Atwood’s novels, many of the main architects of the RoG are portrayed as secretly loathing what they had created. As they say, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

Sorry, but I can't help myself. What Christian Nationalism are you talking about? There's no Christian..Nationalism, it is a full misunderstanding of Christianity. The modern world removed Christian values and alive Spirit from itself. And so did modern science. This is the result of "there's no God". Here you go.

Crocodile tears. 

[dimreepr]

16 minutes ago, m_m said:

Sorry, but I can't help myself. What Christian Nationalism are you talking about? There's no Christian..Nationalism, it is a full misunderstanding of Christianity. The modern world removed Christian values and alive Spirit from itself. And so did modern science. This is the result of "there's no God". Here you go.

Crocodile tears. 

So you are a Christian saying "I told you so" without understanding the polital ramifications; there is no single cause of now.

What your saying here, is what a crusader might say to a Muslim bc their god has a slightly different accent, before you/they condemn them to hell.

All science does, in this context, is say "grow up"... 😣

2 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

I wonder what the US would actually end up looking like if somehow their brand of Christian Nationalism was in fact fully implemented. Seems to me it wouldn’t be too far off a Republic of Gilead type situation. How could anyone actually want to live in that type of society?

To understand that one needs to be a savage, outside of that culture, to see the dystopia; inside and it's all to easy to buy into the utopia on offer...

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, m_m said:

Sorry, but I can't help myself. What Christian Nationalism are you talking about? There's no Christian..Nationalism, it is a full misunderstanding of Christianity. The modern world removed Christian values and alive Spirit from itself. And so did modern science. This is the result of "there's no God". Here you go.

Crocodile tears. 

I think you're in denial. This is a blatant "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Does it matter if white Christian Nationalists in the US understand the religion they pretend to follow? No. They just want all the people of color who don't believe in their white Jesus to go away. It's not the modern world who removed Christian values, it's the white Christian Nationalists. 

[swansont]

6 hours ago, m_m said:

Sorry, but I can't help myself. What Christian Nationalism are you talking about? There's no Christian..Nationalism, it is a full misunderstanding of Christianity.

So? Misunderstanding Christianity seems to be a feature of Christianity (and probably of organized religion altogether). If it weren’t, we wouldn’t have all of these different sects. (tens of thousands of denominations)

It’s pretty clear that the party that claims to be Christian never read the Bible (or possibly, like Otto, read but did not understand) Christian nationalists use religion as a cudgel to seek power, not because they’re devout

 

6 hours ago, m_m said:

The modern world removed Christian values and alive Spirit from itself. And so did modern science. This is the result of "there's no God". Here you go.

If you did a “blind taste test” of party policy, you’d probably see that the Democrats’ policies are better aligned. The Republicans removed most of the Christian values from their politics decades ago.

Modern science never had them, so that’s moot.

[Markus Hanke]

17 hours ago, m_m said:

What Christian Nationalism are you talking about?

The one that the Christian far-right in the US advocates.

17 hours ago, m_m said:

it is a full misunderstanding of Christianity

Not in their eyes, unfortunately. They are fully convinced that their own interpretation of the faith is the only correct one.

17 hours ago, m_m said:

The modern world removed Christian values and alive Spirit from itself.

What values are those, in your opinion? I’m not a Christian, but I’ve read the Bible, and there’s a very wide range of differing views and values advocated in there. There’s some good things that I can somewhat stand behind, but there’s also some pretty horrific stuff that I wouldn’t want to go near with a barge pole. Some really disgusting stuff.

So who gets to decide what “Christian values” actually are?

17 hours ago, m_m said:

This is the result of "there's no God".

Modern science doesn’t say anything about God (Christian or otherwise), since the concept is not amenable to the scientific method.

[Peterkin]

12 minutes ago, Markus Hanke said:

So who gets to decide what “Christian values” actually are?

Whoever has the political power. Right now, the guy with the power is paying off the various factions that brought him to power. Which means he's insulting or damaging adjacent factions. Every gesture he makes to please militant bigots pisses off Christians whose values are more akin to those of the biblical Jesus.

 Since the decent, reasonable Christians outnumber the militant bigots, pretty soon he'll begin to worry about the backlash and repudiate his former extremist allies. Then 'Christian values' in the US will change again.

[J.C.MacSwell]

5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Whoever has the political power. Right now, the guy with the power is paying off the various factions that brought him to power. Which means he's insulting or damaging adjacent factions. Every gesture he makes to please militant bigots pisses off Christians whose values are more akin to those of the biblical Jesus.

 Since the decent, reasonable Christians outnumber the militant bigots, pretty soon he'll begin to worry about the backlash and repudiate his former extremist allies. Then 'Christian values' in the US will change again.

More likely they'll start to realize he's not really on their side though, How many voted for him thinking he shared their values? (not suggesting I know)

I mean how many actually believed "their eating the dogs!"

I thought he had lost it, both the election and possibly his mind at that point...but no...

[CharonY]

5 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

More likely they'll start to realize he's not really on their side though, How many voted for him thinking he shared their values? (not suggesting I know)

I mean how many actually believed "their eating the dogs!"

I thought he had lost it, both the election and possibly his mind at that point...but no...

I don't think that is happening. The whole movement has cult-like aspects and they happily adjust reality (remember in 1984 where they switched which faction they were forever at war with?) to fit their narrative.

Recently, a Jan 6 convict tried to decline the Presidential pardon said:

Quote

“I lost my critical thinking,” she said on Wednesday, reflecting on her involvement in the riot and the “Stop the Steal” movement. “Now I know it was a cult, and I was in a cult.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/22/us/politics/pamela-hemphill-trump-jan-6-pardon-rejection.html?smid=url-share

While it is great that some folks regained their perspective, for many more it will remain out of reach. Critical thinking skills are on a massive decline (for a variety of reason) and it just help perpetuating fantasy parallel to reality.

 

Regarding the pet story a poll (https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Reactions_to_Harris_Trump_Debate_poll_results.pdf#page=6) showed that among folks intending to vote for Trump 52% (22; 30) said that Haitian are definitely or probably eating their dogs. 20% think it is probably false, only 5% state it is definitely false.

Interestingly, support for this statement is highest in the mid-income brackets (50-100k- 30% def/prob true) but it seems it is because in the lower brackets (24%) there are more non-white folks (white folks are more likely to think it is true). In the higher income brackets (21%) the rate might be related to educational levels, but they have not asked that, I think.

 

[iNow]

11 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

Modern science doesn’t say anything about God (Christian or otherwise), since the concept is not amenable to the scientific method.

Small caveat: Sociology and psychology do.

On 1/23/2025 at 5:46 AM, m_m said:

What Christian Nationalism are you talking about?

Your ignorance or dismissal of the movement makes it no less real. Would you perhaps prefer if we referred to it as the American Taliban?

Here's an easy 7 minute overview of the concept since you haven't yet been exposed to these ideas are arguing in bad faith here:

 

 

 

And here's a longer version with more detail on the movement you pretend doesn't exist, one with a deeper focus on Trumps former National Security Advisor who is one of the leaders of this group: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhRNDsLbOvQ

 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Small caveat: Sociology and psychology do.

About religions and worship, but not, I think, the existence.

[Peterkin]

15 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

More likely they'll start to realize he's not really on their side though, How many voted for him thinking he shared their values? (not suggesting I know)

I mean how many actually believed "their eating the dogs!"

They didn't care about that. They cared about abortion (from the perspective their limited information sources portrayed abortion) and they worried about the changing of gender identities. Many of them were concerned with only one of those issues. They were not the only single-issue voting bloc that ignored everything else their candidate is and stands for --- if 'stand for' is not too strong a term to apply to this candidate. What the militant Christian faction wants is to determine the state religion and push everything else - other faiths, science and secular ideas - to the sidelines.

In this, they will be sorely disappointed. He won't crusade for them. He'll persecute helpless minorities to please them, but he won't piss off the Catholics, Jews, moderate Protestants and non-affiliated billionnaires.

       

 

[swansont]

3 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

They didn't care about that

I think they did. Even if you dismiss whether they literally believed that lie, it gives cover to treat brown immigrants like they’re sub-human, and I think a fair fraction of MAGA cares about that. Trump is the enabler of being horrible, and some of his followers are positively giddy about having permission to be openly awful to people who aren’t white males.

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

I think they did. Even if you dismiss whether they literally believed that lie, it gives cover to treat brown immigrants like they’re sub-human, and I think a fair fraction of MAGA cares about that.

MAGA crowd does - at least, a large part of it; I don't think the militant Christians do. I've heard from and met a number of Trump supporters and they all seem to have selective hearing: it transmits speech relating to their particular bugaboo and filters out everything else.

Edited Saturday at 04:13 AM by Peterkin

[dimreepr]

Why is America particularly prone to this type of thinking?

[toucana]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why is America particularly prone to this type of thinking?

One reason is because of some extreme failings in the American education system. A particularly good example is the almost total absence of Geography as an academic discipline or curruclum subject within American schools and universities. It is usually lumped in together with History in a package called ’Social Studies’ in many US schools.

Quote

 

The situation is unfortunately vastly different in the United States. Despite longstanding efforts by the National Geographic Society and the American Geographical Society to expand geography education at the secondary- and university-levels respectively, geography remains a little-studied or even -understood discipline. At present it remains the only major academic field not to receive national education funding. As recently as 2010 the National Assessment Governing Board admitted the failure of American geography education. ‘The consequence’, they conceded, was ‘widespread ignorance of our own country and of its place’ in the world.

https://blog.geographydirections.com/2015/04/08/what-happened-to-the-american-geography-department/

 

The American author Ambrose Bierce who was himself a military cartographer once joked that “War is God’s way of teaching Americans Geography”. The stunning ignorance that has ensued was epitomised by anecdotal accounts of educational surveys which found that some 40% of  students questioned couldn’t accurately locate either the Canadian or Mexican borders on a map of  North America. Others couldn’t even locate the USA on a world map.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/geography-survey-illiteracy

Other academic disciplines that might promote critical thinking  such as Philosophy fare equally badly in the American educational system. Philosophy degrees in the USA for example  are not only comparatively expensive, but the salaries that students are likely to receive on graduation are about 6% below average compared to other undergraduate degrees.

https://www.careerexplorer.com/degrees/philosophy-degree/tuition/

Back in November 2015 Senator Marco Rubio (who has recently been appointed Secretary of State) said during a Presidential debate on Fox News that “Welders make more money than philosophers; we need more welders and less (sic) philosophers”:

https://theweek.com/speedreads/588149/marco-rubio-wants-more-welders-less-philosophers

Which rather epitomises the problem.

Edited Saturday at 03:05 PM by toucana
removed redundant 'an' and 'the' from para 3.

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why is America particularly prone to this type of thinking?

It's certainly not alone in that tendency. As to why: The churches have been politically involved, and Americans have been God-fearing (lauded overt piety) since the first Pilgrims. The whole legal system - bar finance law - is based on biblical tenets. Nearly all federal and state administrations have paid both lip service and substantial material aid to religious organizations. Not only are the more recent televangelists staggeringly rich - and thus able to contribute to the campaigns of candidates who endorse their agenda - but those preachers have huge platforms, through mass media to broadcast propaganda. They can deliver solid blocs of votes. Moreover, those blocs can be mobilized to further the interests of a political party, in return for that politician enacting legislation in their favour. Church and state, while nominally separate, have always been close partners - though rarely so blatantly as now. 

[Moontanman]

3 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why is America particularly prone to this type of thinking?

Rural revivalism sweeping across the vast numbers of undereducated, magical thinking, religious fundamentalists? 

[swansont]

5 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why is America particularly prone to this type of thinking?

Is it? You need to show that this is the case. America doesn’t have a national religion, unlike around 20 that have Christianity as theirs

[Peterkin]

35 minutes ago, swansont said:

America doesn’t have a national religion,

It will if Trump keeps his promise to his 'beautiful Christians'. Of course, he may renege on it if his more influential 'advisors' disapprove.

[swansont]

36 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

It will if Trump keeps his promise to his 'beautiful Christians'. 

It will take more than that. Like his promise to do away with birthright citizenship. Constitutional protections can’t be wiped away by EOs.

[TheVat]

5 hours ago, toucana said:

The American author Ambrose Bierce who was himself a military cartographer once joked that “War is God’s way of teaching Americans Geography”.

One of my favorite Bierceisms - used to have it as a current affairs forum tagline.  Our education systems have much culpability in all this - combined with many homes where books and extracurricular learning have little traction.  

  Both church religion and the dollar religion rush into the vacuum.  In any sane reckoning of what religion and nationalism mean, the term Christian Nationalism is an oxymoron.  

5 hours ago, Peterkin said:

Church and state, while nominally separate, have always been close partners - though rarely so blatantly as now. 

Pluralistic society is messy and complicated.  There is always a tendency for people, especially for more homogeneous rural populations, to want to regress to a small town ideology where their church is the center of life and very cozy with local politics.  The current regression, as others have noted, is very anti-urban.  Our new VP wrote a whole book about the wisdom and virtue embodied in his grandma/caregiver and her rural roots.  

[iNow]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

Constitutional protections can’t be wiped away by EOs.

Assume for a moment he doesn’t care and does it anyway. I am unable to see what mechanism is in place to stop him

[swansont]

8 minutes ago, iNow said:

Assume for a moment he doesn’t care and does it anyway. I am unable to see what mechanism is in place to stop him

Federal judges and SCOTUS may end up being complicit, but it will require their help.

[TheVat]

4 minutes ago, swansont said:

Federal judges and SCOTUS may end up being complicit, but it will require their help.

And if that doesn't work, that's where the more serious and dedicated dictator declares martial law.  Though El Douche will probably save that move for 2028 if it looks like the voters who were suppressed in 2024 are jumping over the various hurdles next time they try.  

https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/