m_m Posted January 28 Author Posted January 28 (edited) On 1/28/2025 at 12:33 AM, zapatos said: Why don't religious types actually answer questions? Expand Yes, you are right. I had to write, "In my opinion,...". But I hear these words "Love your neighbor" from different people, atheists also. And in daily life, in ordinary talk, if one mentions Christianity, these words occur in the mind. Because it is actually a hard task - to love one's neighbor. You see, not to respect, not "to be friends", but TO LOVE. When you love, you need to diminish your ego, but these words continue "as you love yourself". And another question occurs: What does it mean to love yourself? These words concern our urgent task in life - interaction with OTHERS. Because we live not in a desert, but among others. But you are right, I am not a theologist, these are only my thoughts. On 1/28/2025 at 12:33 AM, zapatos said: Thanks for repeating yourself. Why do I bother? Expand I repeat myself, because I chose words carefully. It is a scientific forum, and I am not sure that I understand the Bible. I am not sure that I understand anything. But when you mention slavery you put the modern meaning in that word. I think it's important to be in a frame of mind of the biblical times. Words change their sense over time. Edited January 28 by m_m
Genady Posted January 28 Posted January 28 On 1/28/2025 at 10:18 AM, m_m said: Because it is actually a hard task - to love one's neighbor. You see, not to respect, not "to be friends", but TO LOVE. When you love, you need to diminish your ego, but these words continue "as you love yourself". And another question occurs: What does it mean to love yourself? Expand Mistranslations and misinterpretations. Quote the Bible is not commanding us to feel something—love—but to do something—to be useful or beneficial to help your neighbor. Expand as discussed here: “Love Your Neighbor as Yourself”—What It Really Means - The BAS Library
m_m Posted January 28 Author Posted January 28 (edited) Atheists are also useful and helpful to one another. And it sounds like imposition of the meaning of love. Archeology Society is not Theological Society. They use social sense, not religious. Edited January 28 by m_m
Genady Posted January 28 Posted January 28 On 1/28/2025 at 11:00 AM, m_m said: Atheists are also useful and helpful to one another. And it sounds like imposing of the meaning of love. Archeology Society is not Theological Society. They use social sense, not religious. Expand My point is that you pick an interpretation as you like. They are only words. Humans make a meaning.
m_m Posted January 28 Author Posted January 28 On 1/28/2025 at 4:23 AM, Markus Hanke said: But my point was that whether you are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, something else entirely, or nothing at all, makes no difference - it’s always the same universe, so experiments performed on it have the same outcome, meaning you always find the same laws of nature, irrespective of any god concepts. Expand I don't agree. The tools of studying depend on the attitude towards the universe. On 1/28/2025 at 11:07 AM, Genady said: My point is that you pick an interpretation as you like. They are only words. Humans make a meaning. Expand And you remove theological and religious meaning of love.
Genady Posted January 28 Posted January 28 On 1/28/2025 at 11:09 AM, m_m said: And you remove theological and religious meaning of love. Expand The word "love" appeared there in a translation and by necessity an interpretation of something written in a dead language.
dimreepr Posted January 28 Posted January 28 On 1/28/2025 at 11:09 AM, m_m said: On 1/28/2025 at 4:23 AM, Markus Hanke said: But my point was that whether you are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, something else entirely, or nothing at all, makes no difference - it’s always the same universe, so experiments performed on it have the same outcome, meaning you always find the same laws of nature, irrespective of any god concepts. Expand I don't agree. The tools of studying depend on the attitude towards the universe. Expand Then you don't understand what a tool is... On 1/28/2025 at 11:09 AM, m_m said: On 1/28/2025 at 11:07 AM, Genady said: My point is that you pick an interpretation as you like. They are only words. Humans make a meaning. Expand And you remove theological and religious meaning of love. Expand Why and how??? The Bible's interpretation of love goes hand in hand with the word 'tolerate', and you don't even have to like your neighbours to do that... 🙄
swansont Posted January 28 Posted January 28 ! Moderator Note Split, because the discussion has shifted away from politics and toward religion (though because of merged respinnses, some other stuff has been dragged along)
dimreepr Posted January 28 Posted January 28 On 1/28/2025 at 1:38 PM, swansont said: ! Moderator Note Split, because the discussion has shifted away from politics and toward religion (though because of merged respinnses, some other stuff has been dragged along) Expand Is politics more pertinent???
swansont Posted January 28 Posted January 28 On 1/28/2025 at 2:47 PM, dimreepr said: Is politics more pertinent??? Expand In general, not for me to say. But “love thy neighbor” is religion and not politics unless Matt Gaetz is involved. Plus all the scripture On 1/27/2025 at 10:18 PM, m_m said: The key question is that slavery in the Bible is in no way similar to the racial slavery that our world has suffered from for the past few centuries. Expand In no way similar? It didn’t involve owning people, and making them do labor of various sorts? It didn’t involve buying people from other countries?
Markus Hanke Posted January 29 Posted January 29 On 1/28/2025 at 11:09 AM, m_m said: I don't agree. The tools of studying depend on the attitude towards the universe. Expand My point was about outcomes, not tools. The laws of the universe don’t depend on anyone’s god concept, or lack thereof. Take for example a simple table-top set-up, such as the Cavendish experiment. Anyone can do it, even at home in your own living room; and the outcome of the experiment will always be the exact same, regardless of the experimenter’s religious conviction - you always find the same Newtonian inverse square law, with the same gravitational constant. Concepts of a religious nature are simply irrelevant to the observed laws of nature - which is why you cannot draw conclusions about god (one way or the other) from the natural sciences. 1
m_m Posted January 29 Author Posted January 29 On 1/28/2025 at 6:16 PM, swansont said: love thy neighbor” is religion Expand Why religion? On 1/28/2025 at 6:16 PM, swansont said: In no way similar Expand In no way similar to the racial slavery. And I would like to repeat these lines This is the real slavery. 12Didn’t we say to you in Egypt, ‘Leave us alone; let us serve the Egyptians’? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!” Exodus 14 On 1/28/2025 at 12:55 PM, dimreepr said: The Bible's interpretation of love goes hand in hand with the word 'tolerate' Expand Who said this? On 1/29/2025 at 5:10 AM, Markus Hanke said: My point was about outcomes, not tools. The laws of the universe don’t depend on anyone’s god concept, or lack thereof. Take for example a simple table-top set-up, such as the Cavendish experiment. Anyone can do it, even at home in your own living room; and the outcome of the experiment will always be the exact same, regardless of the experimenter’s religious conviction - you always find the same Newtonian inverse square law, with the same gravitational constant. Concepts of a religious nature are simply irrelevant to the observed laws of nature - which is why you cannot draw conclusions about god (one way or the other) from the natural sciences. Expand I think I'll stay on my point of view. On 1/28/2025 at 11:00 AM, m_m said: Atheists are also useful and helpful to one another Expand aren't they? -1
swansont Posted January 29 Posted January 29 On 1/29/2025 at 11:12 PM, m_m said: Why religion? Expand Since you followed this with a quote from Exodus, you lose all benefit of the doubt that you’re not trolling. As you sow, so shall you reap. On 1/29/2025 at 11:12 PM, m_m said: In no way similar to the racial slavery. And I would like to repeat these lines This is the real slavery. 12Didn’t we say to you in Egypt, ‘Leave us alone; let us serve the Egyptians’? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!” Exodus 14 Expand How ‘bout them cherries you’re picking.
m_m Posted January 29 Author Posted January 29 I am not a troll. My question is about attitude towards ONE ANOTHER. This question concerns politics also. I just wanted to mention. Let's look at France. It's a good country, they help others a lot. But let's remember Olympics' opening. It was quite rude towards Christians and values at all. -2
iNow Posted January 30 Posted January 30 Allowing gay and transgendered people to express themselves openly and authentically and to be included in a celebration of diversity and humanity ought not be conflated with being “rude toward Christians,” and anyone who feels otherwise is too immature, bigoted, and ridiculous to deserve any attention
Markus Hanke Posted January 30 Posted January 30 On 1/29/2025 at 11:12 PM, m_m said: I think I'll stay on my point of view. Expand That’s of course your prerogative.
dedo Posted January 30 Posted January 30 On 1/29/2025 at 11:49 PM, m_m said: I am not a troll. My question is about attitude towards ONE ANOTHER. This question concerns politics also. I just wanted to mention. Let's look at France. It's a good country, they help others a lot. But let's remember Olympics' opening. It was quite rude towards Christians and values at all. Expand Not sure if this helps with your ? but here goes: It might be more than politics, but a poorly understood psychopathology in society that can infect groups, including religions, that leads to tribalism or an "us & them" mindset, that helps fuel human conflict & impairs "love for others" which is supposed to mean "will the best for another". Just examine rhetoric in people that have strong group / tribal identity, & it is common to see people overlook almost any moral violation in their tribe. Achieving the ability to "will the best for others", especially other groups, that Christianity exhorts is a life long endeavor. Religions may have an important part to play in it though, especially if accompanied by science. For example, religious visions during WWI in Fatima, Portugal, predicted future world wars that could be prevented or mitigated if enough Catholic Christians exercised "love one another" by saying certain prayers in reparation for the world. Sadly few do those prayers. Maybe if religions understood scientifically, the peril the world is in, they would make more of an effort to "love one another", at least for their own survival. So whatever your belief system, survival of humanity may depend on progress in that arena, meaning "love one another" specifically related to overcoming group on group conflict. The Fermi paradox may be a filter that prevents intelligent life that fails to progress in that area from reaching the stars. Violent intelligent cultures destroy themselves, most likely in the nuclear age.
dimreepr Posted January 30 Posted January 30 On 1/29/2025 at 11:12 PM, m_m said: Who said this? Expand Someone in the bible, do you deny that tolerance was mentioned in the bible? I think it might have been Jesus, whoever he/she was. 😉
npts2020 Posted January 30 Posted January 30 On 1/29/2025 at 11:12 PM, m_m said: In no way similar to the racial slavery. Expand I have read this entire thread and still don't understand the difference between the slavery of the Jews and the slavery of Africans other than the amount of pigments in their epidermis and that some book claims one group is more deserving than another. Can you elaborate?
m_m Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 On 1/30/2025 at 1:26 PM, npts2020 said: I have read this entire thread and still don't understand the difference between the slavery of the Jews and the slavery of Africans other than the amount of pigments in their epidermis and that some book claims one group is more deserving than another. Can you elaborate? Expand I don't know how or why questions about slavery occurred in this topic. I am not a theologist, and I have found this explanation. "Another important point is that the purpose of the Bible is to show the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing his thoughts and actions. A person who has received God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin will understand that it is wrong to enslave another person. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will, in turn, be merciful to others. This is the biblical method for ending slavery." I think it is so important doing something because you decided this, and not because you were told to, or it is written somewhere. When you have a glimpse in your mind - this is a gift. -2
Phi for All Posted February 10 Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 10:51 PM, m_m said: "Another important point is that the purpose of the Bible is to show the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing his thoughts and actions. A person who has received God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin will understand that it is wrong to enslave another person. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will, in turn, be merciful to others. This is the biblical method for ending slavery." Expand I don't know who said this, since you stole their words but didn't give a citation, but we have more slaves today, working in contemporary slavery, than in biblical times, so I'm going to give your biblical method a big thumbs down. Almost 50 million, around the world, and a lot of this is done by religious groups who have dehumanized certain people in order to "help" them, specifically by housing and feeding them, and getting some manual labor out of the deal. AKA slavery. In the US, lots of good Christians in the south base the structure of their towns and cities on slave prison labor, and half the churches in the US are in rural areas. Your god reformed all those souls, but didn't seem to be able to change their thoughts and actions.
zapatos Posted February 11 Posted February 11 On 2/10/2025 at 10:51 PM, m_m said: I am not a theologist, and I have found this explanation. Expand You completely dodged the question. That's a very dishonest way to debate.
Markus Hanke Posted February 11 Posted February 11 On 2/10/2025 at 10:51 PM, m_m said: I think it is so important doing something because you decided this, and not because you were told to, or it is written somewhere. Expand Whatever about the rest, but I completely agree with this particular statement. Genuine morality and ethics cannot be imposed from the outside, they have to come from within, or else the facade simply crumbles once the going gets tough.
dimreepr Posted February 11 Posted February 11 On 2/11/2025 at 4:39 AM, Markus Hanke said: Whatever about the rest, but I completely agree with this particular statement. Genuine morality and ethics cannot be imposed from the outside, they have to come from within, or else the facade simply crumbles once the going gets tough. Expand "The parable of the mad man" Bolded mine: I think it can, but how could we tell the difference???
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