Christianity (split from Christian nationalism)

[Markus Hanke]

15 hours ago, dimreepr said:

I think it can, but how could we tell the difference???

Yes, good question. I think the difference will show itself in how people act when they think no one is looking - in the case of externally imposed moral codes, there’s a much higher probability that those will be set aside if they interfere with other goals, and if they think no one will know. But if someone acts out of a genuine inner conviction, they aren’t likely to disregard those, irrespective of what circumstances they find themselves in. 

It reminds me a little of the situation in the former communist Eastern Bloc - the vast majority of ordinary people externally toed the party line, parroted the right slogans etc, which enabled them to live some semblance of a normal life. But behind closed doors it was a different story - very few actually genuinely believed the ideology, which is why the whole thing just crumbled in the end; there weren’t hundreds of thousands coming out to do their utmost to preserve their beloved systems. That’s the difference between imposing a narrative with fear, versus genuine conviction.

[dimreepr]

7 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

I think the difference will show itself in how people act when they think no one is looking

But everyone has a price, from Winston in room 101, to a dog walker that's run out of shit bag's; if no one is looking, they're not going to pick up the shit with their bare hand's.

Christianity provides an external watcher in the form of god, Buddhism provides an internal watcher in the form of karma; both depend on belief to educate those of us that don't understand the value of a moral code...

[Genady]

8 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

in the case of externally imposed moral codes, there’s a much higher probability that those will be set aside if they interfere with other goals, and if they think no one will know. But if someone acts out of a genuine inner conviction, they aren’t likely to disregard those, irrespective of what circumstances they find themselves in. 

Externally imposed moral codes become genuine inner conviction with a right brainwashing. 

[Markus Hanke]

18 hours ago, dimreepr said:

But everyone has a price, from Winston in room 101, to a dog walker that's run out of shit bag's; if no one is looking, they're not going to pick up the shit with their bare hand's.

I understand that, which is why I was talking in terms of likelihoods and tendencies. Human beings are very complex systems, so it is difficult to make absolute statements.

17 hours ago, Genady said:

Externally imposed moral codes become genuine inner conviction with a right brainwashing.

Indeed, that can happen. And the reverse too - genuine convictions sometimes go away, given appropriate circumstances.

My original comment was simply that externally imposing moral codes by means of fear and threats of punishment is not the same as holding a genuine inner conviction. And this goes for better and worse (think extremism etc).

[m_m]

On 2/11/2025 at 1:24 AM, Phi for All said:

I don't know who said this, since you stole their words but didn't give a citation, but we have more slaves today, working in contemporary slavery, than in biblical times, so I'm going to give your biblical method a big thumbs down. Almost 50 million, around the world, and a lot of this is done by religious groups who have dehumanized certain people in order to "help" them, specifically by housing and feeding them, and getting some manual labor out of the deal. AKA slavery. 

In the US, lots of good Christians in the south base the structure of their towns and cities on slave prison labor, and half the churches in the US are in rural areas. Your god reformed all those souls, but didn't seem to be able to change their thoughts and actions. 

You are saying about the religious groups, and my very first respond was about Christian nationalism. Slavery and nationalism contradict to Christian values.

I mean, not everyone who consider themselves Christians  adhere to Christianity.

 

And it was (or is) a common practice all over the world to build manufactories near prisons. It's not about religious groups.

On 2/11/2025 at 6:39 AM, Markus Hanke said:

Whatever about the rest,

The rest is about this inner genuine conviction. 

How do you know, for example, that slavery is not good? 

How do you know that some conviction is genuine and true? And it's not your belief? What are your ideals? 

My answer is, when you have some conviction and it corresponds with true values, it is a genuine glimpse. 

For me the true values are Christian values. Because there's no truth without God. 

Edited February 13 by m_m

[iNow]

40 minutes ago, m_m said:

there's no truth without God.

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 

Another mind broken by the god fog

[Genady]

48 minutes ago, m_m said:

there's no truth without God

Of course there is. Here is one: the number of primes is infinite.

[m_m]

 

Just now, Genady said:

Of course there is. Here is one: the number of primes is infinite.

I think it is accommodation until rules of mathematics, concepts "Infinity" and "number" are questioned. 

[Genady]

2 minutes ago, m_m said:

 

I think it is accommodation until rules of mathematics, concepts "Infinity" and "number" are questioned. 

A concept of "number" is not questioned, and "rules" have nothing to do with this statement.

Also, the concept of "infinity" is not needed, because the statement simply says, that the number of primes is not finite.

[m_m]

18 minutes ago, Genady said:

A concept of "number" is not questioned, and "rules" have nothing to do with this statement.

Also, the concept of "infinity" is not needed, because the statement simply says, that the number of primes is not finite.

Number is a symbol, isn't it? That's why "the number of prime numbers is not finite" sounds strange to me, because "the number" supposes some symbol, some scope or limit under it. 

[Genady]

4 minutes ago, m_m said:

Number is a symbol, isn't it? That's why "the number of prime numbers is not finite" sounds strange to me, because "the number" supposes some symbol, some scope or limit under it. 

No, it is not. Number is not a symbol, it signifies counting. We count, gods count, your book counts, "day 1", "day 2", etc. is counting. So, "primes" are counts that cannot be broken down into smaller equal counts. The statement we are discussing says that for any finite list of primes, a prime exists that is not on the list.

[dimreepr]

8 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:

I understand that, which is why I was talking in terms of likelihoods and tendencies. Human beings are very complex systems, so it is difficult to make absolute statements.

Indeed, but absolute faith does tip the scales; a commodity that has to carefully managed.

I think the various religion's, have all taken 'a bloody good stab at it'; but, as ever, time degrades the data and the meaning is lost... 

I think we're waiting for Nietzsche's madman to shine a light...

4 hours ago, m_m said:

The rest is about this inner genuine conviction. 

How do you know, for example, that slavery is not good? 

How do you know that some conviction is genuine and true? And it's not your belief? What are your ideals? 

My answer is, when you have some conviction and it corresponds with true values, it is a genuine glimpse. 

For me the true values are Christian values. Because there's no truth without God. 

Why would you need a god to imagine that slavery is not good?

Just think to yourself "Jesus H christ!!! don't make me be a slave", give a minute to sink right in there; yes that's blasphemy. 🙄 

Edited February 13 by dimreepr

[m_m]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

No, it is not. Number is not a symbol, it signifies counting. We count, gods count, your book counts, "day 1", "day 2", etc. is counting. So, "primes" are counts that cannot be broken down into smaller equal counts. The statement we are discussing says that for any finite list of primes, a prime exists that is not on the list.

Number is a symbol.

number

word/symbol

[countable] a word or symbol that represents an amount or a quantity

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/number_1

 

 

[zapatos]

Just now, m_m said:

Number is a symbol.

"Number" is a word. A noun specifically. 

[Genady]

1 minute ago, m_m said:

Number is a symbol.

number

word/symbol

[countable] a word or symbol that represents an amount or a quantity

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/number_1

 

 

It does not matter. We are discussing this statement:

for any finite list of primes, a prime exists that is not on the list.

It is true without God.

[m_m]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

 

Why would you need a god to imagine that slavery is not good?

 

Why do you need to change my words? My question is different.

 

Just now, Genady said:

It does not matter. We are discussing this statement:

for any finite list of primes, a prime exists that is not on the list.

It is true without God.

But you have changed your first statement. Why?

[Genady]

2 minutes ago, m_m said:

But you have changed your first statement. Why?

Because you started playing with words which are not essential for the statement. So, I've rephrased it to avoid these words. It is the same statement expressed with different words.

[m_m]

Just now, Genady said:

Because you started playing with words which are not essential for the statement. So, I've rephrased it to avoid these words. It is the same statement expressed with different words.

Ok

I just asked you about the number, and now I play with words. You said that number was out of questions.

Edited February 13 by m_m

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, m_m said:

Why do you need to change my words? My question is different.

Not as much as you might think

[m_m]

 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Just think to yourself "Jesus H christ!!! don't make me be a slave", give a minute to sink right in there; yes that's blasphemy. 🙄 

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

Galatians 6:7

Edited February 13 by m_m

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, m_m said:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

Galatians 6:7

I can't smell it, I've got a cold...

[Genady]

27 minutes ago, m_m said:

number was out of questions

It is so because the statement is not about "number" of primes, but about set of primes. My use of the word "number" in the original statement was sloppy. 

Here is the statement stated formally:

∀ S⊆P, |S|∈N ⇒ (∃ p∈P, p∉S)

where P is set of primes.

In English, it says "for any S subset of P, if S is finite then a prime exists which is not in S."

Edited February 13 by Genady

[m_m]

Just now, Genady said:

It is so because the statement is not about "number" of primes, but about set of primes. My use of the word "number" in the original statement was sloppy. 

Here is the statement stated formally:

∀ S⊂P, |S|∈N ⇒ (∃ p∈P, p∉S)

where P is set of primes.

In English, it says "for any S subset of P, if S is finite then a prime exists which is not in S."

This statement is actual, or true, because people agree on this. People created numbers, math, etc. It is the people's truth. If somebody decides to change it, it will be changed and crossed out.

And it is even not the truth, it is a true statement for current mathematics!

Edited February 13 by m_m

[Genady]

18 minutes ago, m_m said:

This statement is actual, or true, because people agree on this.

Nobody has to agree or disagree with this statement. We know that it is true because it is proven to be true. The truth of this statement was known to Euclid although it has been discovered perhaps earlier, and Euclid's proof appears in his books Elements although there are many ways to prove it.

 

21 minutes ago, m_m said:

If somebody decides to change it, it will be changed and crossed out.

This is example of a statement which is not true.

 

22 minutes ago, m_m said:

it is even not the truth, it is a true statement

No difference.

[m_m]

Just now, Genady said:

This is example of a statement which is not true.

Everything changes; words, languages, art, science has also experienced cardinal changes. 

Edited February 13 by m_m