Trump administration is crippling science.

[CharonY]

A couple of other issues that are happening in all this shit storm.

The NIH is cutting overhead funding to 15%. These are funding in addition to the actual project cost (such as personnel and materials) that universities get. These cost fund things like building costs (space, electricity, heating etc.) and administrative cost (including HR, financial services, etc.). These were often up to 50% of the project cost. E.g., if you get funding for a project costing 200k to execute, the univ would get up to 100k in assistance. While there is some argument to be had whether that is really how things should be, in the US it has become a critical element to keep the research alive at universities. One big reason on the reliance for overhead is that public funding for universities has stagnated (or even been reduced) despite rising costs.

However, cutting to 15% puts it in line with philanthropic donations, which clearly shows that the conservative idea of research and education should be controlled and disbursed by rich folks, not unlike how arts and science were conducted in before modernity.

On another front, grant agencies are scrutinizing active grants and are using keywords to find grants that go against the administrations directives. The lists I found are (again) very telling and include for example:

Advocacy, Biases, Barrier, Female, Minority, Trauma, Systemic, Victims, Socieconomic, Oppression, Polarization, Inclusive, Women.

I will note that none of the lists mentioned "men" and and "male" only appeared as "male dominated".

 

So in summary, the US is on a good path make folks (male and not-male) stupid again. Clearly, the current trend in the conservative mind (and they are too dominant to be called the far-right) is to use "free speech" as a cudgel and then do everything to not only limit free speech but also to limit thought. In a way it is quite clever, as they get to play both sides of the game (and it is also something that incidentally authoritarians are very good at). The number of folks losing their jobs and careers due to this administration's stance on DEI makes the long discussions we had on this forum regarding whether transgender rights could somehow potentially lead to someone losing their job quite ridiculous.

 

 

[CharonY]

Just so to outline that not only women and issues related to gender are targeted, the Trump administration is also trying to kill biodiversity and related environmental studies.

Quote

The draft was almost ready for submission, due in less than a month. More than 150 scientists and other experts had collectively spent thousands of hours working on the report, a first-of-its-kind assessment of nature across the United States.

But President Trump ended the effort, started under the Biden administration, by executive order. So, on Jan. 30, the project’s director, an environmental scientist named Phil Levin, sent an email telling members of his team that their work had been discontinued.

But it wasn’t the only email he sent that day.

“This work is too important to die,” Dr. Levin wrote in a separate email to the reports’ authors, this one from his personal account. “The country needs what we are producing.”

Now key experts who worked on the report, called the National Nature Assessment, are figuring out how to finish and publish it outside the government, according to interviews with nine of the leading authors.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/10/climate/nature-assessment-trump.html?smid=url-share

[paulsutton]

There is a discussion on Mastodon about this and related issues, there is currently a big attempt to try and archive as much information as possible for the future, so papers, website content etc.

I know that NASA has had to remove references to black and female scientists as one example.   This is part of the DEI crackdown.

Really not a good situation at all.

[CharonY]

A lot of groups, including universities and societies  are involved in the process and are trying to scrape as much as possible from webarchives.

An early report on it was here https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/02/upshot/trump-government-websites-missing-pages.html?smid=url-share

It is a bit of a repetition of what happened 2016- but in a much larger scale. And clearly not only things related to DEI will be targeted. In a way it is a scary experiment to see how fast one can plunge a nation into (deeper) ignorance.

[CharonY]

What is really troubling is that apparently web pages with information on health risks in youth, HIV testing and prevention and so on were pre-emptively removed. There is now an injunction to restore them.

But it is a very bad sign that FDA, CDC and so on are removing information just because they might be affected by the executive order. This pre-emptive obeyance which clearly goes against the mission of the respective agencies is a sign that the dismantling is happening much faster than anticipated and is likely going have deep impact on public health and science in the USA.

https://www.citizen.org/news/judge-grants-temporary-restraining-order-orders-cdc-fda-hhs-webpages-to-be-restored/

Also, multiple states have started a lawsuit against the 15% limit on indirect costs (may only apply to approved grants). The issue here really is that it will lead to collapse of the research landscape in the USA.

[Trurl]

Well I am joining this topic late after reading the previous posts. But I think science is going to improve in the current administration.

The problem is science is going to advance but at what cost. Not of money, because if the science is not profitable it will be trashed.  If better means faster spacecraft or more powerful weapons we will be better.

I’m impressed by Elon Musk’s accomplishments. He gets things done but not without making the people working for him miserable. I write this description of him based on his biography.

I’m not an academic but cutting $37 million from a few thousand researcher and planning a trillion AI doesn’t add up.

The question is how long before he cuts a program you use?

We will have to see how this plays out. Trump knows we need research. And Elon’s Twitter experiment is still going on. I just wished we knew how it turned out before we used it to eliminate waste in government.

[CharonY]

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

Well I am joining this topic late after reading the previous posts. But I think science is going to improve in the current administration.

The problem is science is going to advance but at what cost. Not of money, because if the science is not profitable it will be trashed.  If better means faster spacecraft or more powerful weapons we will be better.

That is certainly a... interesting take. Do you have any suggestions how crippling research infrastructure by stopping grants and massively reducing overhead is going to improve science? Ultimately, it would mean that research labs will be closed eventually as universities won't afford to support research. And as you might know, especially fundamental research happens mostly in academic institutions.

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

I’m impressed by Elon Musk’s accomplishments. He gets things done but not without making the people working for him miserable. I write this description of him based on his biography.

I think you are reading the wrong biographies then. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-11-14/elon-musk-toxic-boss-timeline

Quote

If there’s such a thing as a warm and cuddly boss, Musk has long been the opposite to his employees, who now number more than 100,000. He burns through executives with the heat of a battery fire. He takes criticism personally, even when it’s a matter of worker or customer safety. He’s been known to fire people on a whim. Since buying Twitter, his public image is shifting fast, from self-described techno-king to unpredictable court jester and human tornado.

His companies are embroiled in lawsuits involving poor working conditions, lack of safety and sexual harassment.

This is just one example https://www.theguardian.com/science/article/2024/jun/12/elon-musk-spacex-lawsuit

I mean, it is possible that he cultures a frat boy culture which is attractive to a certain demographics, but it is certainly wrong to say that he is not making his workers miserable. In fact, Tesla has been cited for multiple safety violations and they have mechanisms to leave injuries unreported.

So no, I have little confidence that he knows what he is doing, especially as everything he is doing right now is way out of his area of expertise.

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

The question is how long before he cuts a program you use?

It is already happening. Public data, as in data generated for the public with public money, including on health, environment but also health recommendations and advice are being removed.

Musk's approach of breaking things taking no responsibility is affecting people's lives already. This is the issue with corporate person to run things. For them breaking things, taking no responsibility and make others to pay the price is a good business model. The issue here is that the public is paying the price.

[swansont]

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

I’m impressed by Elon Musk’s accomplishments. He gets things done but not without making the people working for him miserable

So did he get the things done, or was it the people working for him?

[CharonY]

RFK Jr is confirmed to lead HHS. This is in no way going to be devastating to public health. Avian influenza milk for all!

[Sensei]

38 minutes ago, CharonY said:

RFK Jr is confirmed to lead HHS. This is in no way going to be devastating to public health. Avian influenza milk for all!

POTUS complains that EU does not want to buy US food. Now reluctance will skyrocket dramatically..

[Trurl]

Quote

That is certainly a... interesting take. Do you have any suggestions how crippling research infrastructure by stopping grants and massively reducing overhead is going to improve science?

I am agreeing with you. I all about stopping waste, but this isn’t the way to do it. These programs took years to establish.

No one knows the criteria for identifying waste. When you take out the FDA, you are just paving the way for eliminating the Affordable Care Act.

Quote

So did he get the things done, or was it the people working for him?

He knows how to put projects together. I don’t think things like Space X would be there without him. But I don’t think he is motivated by money. To me it doesn’t make sense he is dealing in government affairs and saving money. I thought he would be totally focused on Mars.

The following is just my figuring but trashing a government program doesn’t save money. It wastes all the effort put in the program. People lose aid. It doesn’t get rid of the need. And you can’t just replace the program.

I heard the following on an Elon Musk podcast on Audible. Elon needed to launch at a certain date, but was told he had to complete a 3 month FAA study; something to do with using the air space for launch.

Now eliminating such a bureaucratic policy makes sense. That is waste.

I like Elon Musk the guy who saved the US space program. I don’t think he should be trashing government programs.

i know what people think. “He made rockets for a fraction of the cost of the trillion dollar NASA rockets that are never built, imagine what he could do with the government.“

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, Trurl said:

He knows how to put projects together. I don’t think things like Space X would be there without him. But I don’t think he is motivated by money. To me it doesn’t make sense he is dealing in government affairs and saving money. I thought he would be totally focused on Mars.

Well, you forget, much of the money for his companies comes from the government (over 13 billions in the last 5 years). And now being part of it allows him to funnel more money into it. Also his companies have been under investigation for a range of issues. This is a great way to get rid of them.

Just yesterday the state department released plans to buy 400 million worth of cybertrucks. So I would say that money is at least part of it. The other is likely just power.

Also, I would not trust anything he says without external validation. He is known to lie a lot on various platforms.

[Trurl]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

Well, you forget, much of the money for his companies comes from the government (over 13 billions in the last 5 years). And now being part of it allows him to funnel more money into it.

Well I still don’t understand his motivation. I don’t know economics but I don’t think cutting funds in the millions could “directly” transfer for his use. You may actually lose more money by creating new problems.

Wouldn’t Trump fund his space projects anyway?

What are you guys conspiracy theories? What is Elon’s motive? He could have all the funding he wants without “cutting waste.” Why dismantle the government agencies?

If the money benefited him I understand. Cutting programs doesn’t solve his legal problems, does it?

[CharonY]

20 minutes ago, Trurl said:

Well I still don’t understand his motivation. I don’t know economics but I don’t think cutting funds in the millions could “directly” transfer for his use. You may actually lose more money by creating new problems.

The cutting itself not so much. It is more a way to influence policy without getting elected. He and his folks do not really care if it makes sense, whether it wastes money or if people suffer or die. All these three things are already happening. However, while he wrecks essential services (which he doesn't need) he can also gut oversight systems that could hinder his businesses. There could also be ideological reasons, as rich libertarians don't want regulations, as they ultimately limit their power. Without those, they are free to do close to whatever they want and use the public as they playground.

That being said, there are plenty of reports regarding conflicts of interest where Musk is shuttering agencies that provide oversights to parts of his business.

One example is the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which is a consumer watchdog to protect customers. The CFBP would be in the way of turning Twitter/X into a money service (https://www.npr.org/2025/02/12/nx-s1-5293382/x-elon-musk-doge-cfpb)

USAID was auditing Starlink contracts and uses in Ukraine and FDA as well as transportation services (among others) would allow him to run his business as he wants, regardless of harm to consumers.

You mustn't forget, folks with giant egos often believe that whatever they is right. And the one thing that they cannot stand is oversight and accountability. Dismantling all these agencies satisfies that demand to the harm of many, many folks. Ultimately he is too stupid and/or uncaring to take the harm he is doing into account. And that includes starving kids across the globe.

 

 

 

[Trurl]

You’re right he is just testing the waters. It will lead to the agency he really doesn’t want.

Or even the threat of dismantlement would influence agencies.

[Phi for All]

18 hours ago, Trurl said:

I heard the following on an Elon Musk podcast on Audible. Elon needed to launch at a certain date, but was told he had to complete a 3 month FAA study; something to do with using the air space for launch.

Now eliminating such a bureaucratic policy makes sense. That is waste.

As someone who has followed efforts for the peaceful and sustainable use of outer space near Earth, I can tell you right now you are completely WRONG about this. It is NOT a waste to force anyone to comply with such studies. If we'd been more concerned with regulation in the past, we wouldn't have the problem we do with space debris, which Musk has made even worse by his slipshod, cut-corner practices.

You jumped to a conclusion that these studies were unnecessary, that they're a waste. Are you going to educate yourself or keep pushing Elon Musk's talking points? You do know he's at the head of the fascist takeover, right? His companies stand to become favored by the state, which means he has no competition and can charge what he wants once he's in place. That's all the conspiracy needed. See Germany leading up to WWII. They'll be taking prisoners and forcing them to work soon, watch for it. 

 

[CharonY]

5 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

They'll be taking prisoners and forcing them to work soon, watch for it. 

I don't think that that is what you mean, but prison labor is already a thing under exception of the 13th amendment.

[Phi for All]

Just now, CharonY said:

I don't think that that is what you mean, but prison labor is already a thing under exception of the 13th amendment.

They're won't be deporting folks once the costs become clear. Count on detention centers for immigrants being used as prison labor.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/04/geo-forced-labor-lawsuit/

Quote

 

When Carlos Eliezer Ortiz Muñoz arrived at the Denver Contract Detention Facility in Aurora, Colorado, in 2014, he was given a clothing package and assigned to a housing unit, where he’d have to stay for months. Like tens of thousands of other immigrants across the country who are kept in Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) detention each night, Ortiz and his fellow detainees were waiting to see if they’d win their immigration cases or face deportation.

Before long, the private prison company that ran the detention center put Ortiz to work. Each day in his housing unit, guards assigned a crew of six detainees to clean the private and common living areas; scrub down toilets, showers, and eating tables; and sweep and mop floors. “None of us got paid anything,” Ortiz said in a court statement. But he couldn’t protest—he knew he could be sent to solitary confinement if he refused to do the cleaning. “Some of the guards would threaten us by saying, ‘¿Quieres ir al hoyo?‘” Ortiz said. “‘You want to go to the hole?'”

 

 

[CharonY]

Oh yeah, I just wanted to point out that it is already happening. But scale is likely to increase as some asshat will figure out that there is money to be made (or already have, hard to tell sometimes). And well, cruelty is the point. Panem et circenses for the mob. As long someone is doing worse, folks won't noticed by whom they are being robbed blind.

Somewhat more related to the science part, but probably a universal tactic, is the use of small truths to cover up big lies. For example, pointing a side effect of a drug or vaccine and then question the use of vaccines.

This is going to be a more common with RFK JR at the helm of HHS. For the rest of the world, the tight relationships with CDC (and to some degree FDA) for public health safety might now be in trouble.

[TheVat]

Washington Post, tracking data from government websites:

https://wapo.st/3X0HcEc

 

Within a matter of days, the worst-case scenario seemed to have been averted. Officials told data users the files had been taken down to comply with an executive order and would be restored after they were reviewed and approved. Soon, the entire ACS seemed to be available.

Amid the whirlwind of uncertainty, David Van Riper at IPUMS, the Minnesota heroes who collect, harmonize and distribute flagship federal datasets, told us the organization has been working with its peers to “figure out who has what so that we can patch together a backup of the federal statistical system” — especially its more obscure datasets and priceless bits of documentation.

 

Speaking of which, when our friend Federica Cocco, The Washington Post’s econ and business data reporter, asked whether we were backing anything up, we thought of a lesser-known Census Bureau effort: the Household Pulse.

[Trurl]

On 2/14/2025 at 11:42 AM, Phi for All said:

You jumped to a conclusion that these studies were unnecessary, that they're a waste. Are you going to educate yourself or keep pushing Elon Musk's talking points?

Well again I was agreeing with you. I was just was stating what the podcast said. It takes at least 3 months to complete the study. I am unfamiliar in these processes. But I think it had something to do with the window to reach Mars.

But remember anything to do with space is inherently dangerous. The day Challenger launched it had 6ft ice sickles on it.

 

Red tape is real. If you ever dealt with it, as you probably have. But you don’t destroy the entire agency. Many times I waited for months as my file sat on a desk. It needed a signature that would take 5 minutes only to sit on another desk for another 5 minute signature.

It was like the government agency did this on purpose. So I understand why deregulation is backed. But you don’t destroy the entire agency. I mean you don’t cancel aid to starving kids to get revenge on the regulations we are all subject to.

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, Trurl said:

Red tape is real. If you ever dealt with it, as you probably have. But you don’t destroy the entire agency. Many times I waited for months as my file sat on a desk. It needed a signature that would take 5 minutes only to sit on another desk for another 5 minute signature.

Sure, and the trick is to figure out how to optimize a system and also what the priorities are. I am sure there are different views on it. For example, what delay would be acceptable to, say, ensure that 0 lives are lost vs 1 vs 10? Folks calling for total deregulation usually are not the ones paying the price. Conversely, it makes sense to build in accountability mechanisms (and quite a few of those do exist) which check for unnecessary bloat. A bit of an issue however is when folks calling for deregulation have all the money and power, whereas folks who might be affected are the poor and powerless.