Gap between life and non-life (split from What if god...)

[Luc Turpin]

2 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

So tell us the difference between religion and this quasi-religion you call "spirituality"? Please also tell us what is humble about accepting someone else's unsupported explanation about a phenomena without questioning it first? That doesn't fit my definition of humble. It's more like "naive" or "gullible". It describes someone who thinks blind faith in anything is a strong and admirable stance. It's definitely unscientific. 

I'm often humbled (in the real sense) when I read about scientific advancements or some new knowledge about life on this planet. I'm humbled to think that all life we've found in the universe seems to be clustered on the surface of this planet, but it's the life itself I observe that humbles me, not some imagined mystery involving things I can NEVER observe.

What if gods are just mental laziness on the part of otherwise intelligent humans?

Religion is a social construct, while spirituality is personal and individual. Religion is structured with doctrines, rituals, and often authority, and can sometimes-manytimes be used for control. Spirituality, on the other hand, focuses on personal growth, inner peace, and connection, without fixed rules or practices. One can be both religious and spiritual, or spiritual without a specific religion.

Acknowledging that some things may remain mysterious shows humility, while blindly accepting everything is being gullible.

You should also be humbled by the unknown and understanding that some truths may never be fully understood.

As for the concept of gods, I agree that for some, belief in gods may be seen as a form of mental laziness or a way to explain things that are otherwise difficult to understand.

40 minutes ago, iNow said:

I'd say it a different way: Science is a process to systematically remove bias from what we believe. Religion is a tool that codifies that bias and ends the search. 

Your statement oversimplifies science and religion. Both are complex and engage with reality in different ways.

Science is not just about removing bias, which it can never fully eliminate. It is a process of inquiry and exploration that evolves with new evidence, promoting skepticism as well as open-mindedness, which is sometimes overlooked. Science constantly refines its understanding, but it can sometimes be too rigid in its conclusions.

Religion is not merely about codifying biases. While it can be rigid at times, it also allows for growth, questioning, and offers a framework for understanding life, purpose, and meaning. Religion often embraces mystery, acknowledging the limitations of human knowledge.

In short, both science and religion are dynamic. Science provides knowledge based on evidence, while religion offers wisdom rooted in experience and faith. Together, they offer complementary perspectives on reality. Science may often be right, but religion also illuminates aspects of life that science cannot fully address.

Both science and religion can be destructive in their own ways. Therefore, I prefer to embrace the positive aspects of science while leaning toward spirituality rather than organized religion.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

Religion is a social construct, while spirituality is personal and individual. Religion is structured with doctrines, rituals, and often authority, and can sometimes-manytimes be used for control. Spirituality, on the other hand, focuses on personal growth, inner peace, and connection, without fixed rules or practices. One can be both religious and spiritual, or spiritual without a specific religion.

Both sound like social constructs. I think you're applying some kind of unnecessary mystery to your concept of spirituality. A focus on growth and inner peace that enables connection with other humans is no mystery, and certainly nothing supernatural. We're social creatures with certain complimentary physical attributes that allow us to communicate with each other to an astonishing level of complexity, which in turn facilitates an incredible propensity for cooperation, which benefits whole societies. 

You keep trying to cram a bunch of woo where it isn't needed. Watch a protest march, or neighbors helping each other after a natural disaster, or locals gathering to help a beached whale regain the sea. Gods aren't needed at all for that feeling of oneness, of common bonds, of the spirit of hope in the face of adversity.

[Luc Turpin]

39 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Both sound like social constructs. I think you're applying some kind of unnecessary mystery to your concept of spirituality. A focus on growth and inner peace that enables connection with other humans is no mystery, and certainly nothing supernatural. We're social creatures with certain complimentary physical attributes that allow us to communicate with each other to an astonishing level of complexity, which in turn facilitates an incredible propensity for cooperation, which benefits whole societies. 

You keep trying to cram a bunch of woo where it isn't needed. Watch a protest march, or neighbors helping each other after a natural disaster, or locals gathering to help a beached whale regain the sea. Gods aren't needed at all for that feeling of oneness, of common bonds, of the spirit of hope in the face of adversity.

 

41 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Both sound like social constructs. I think you're applying some kind of unnecessary mystery to your concept of spirituality. A focus on growth and inner peace that enables connection with other humans is no mystery, and certainly nothing supernatural. We're social creatures with certain complimentary physical attributes that allow us to communicate with each other to an astonishing level of complexity, which in turn facilitates an incredible propensity for cooperation, which benefits whole societies. 

You keep trying to cram a bunch of woo where it isn't needed. Watch a protest march, or neighbors helping each other after a natural disaster, or locals gathering to help a beached whale regain the sea. Gods aren't needed at all for that feeling of oneness, of common bonds, of the spirit of hope in the face of adversity.

Human cooperation is focused on external connections while spirituality is an inward-facing experience, often centered on connecting with something greater than oneself, whether that’s a higher powe or the universe. Spirituality can also just encompass mindfulness and inner peace without a divine focus. While cooperation shapes external relationships, spirituality provides a deeper, personal journey to understanding one’s place in the world, offering meaning to life.

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Luc Turpin said:

religion also illuminates aspects of life that science cannot fully address

The imaginary parts?

[CharonY]

6 hours ago, iNow said:

I'd say it a different way: Science is a process to systematically remove bias from what we believe. Religion is a tool that codifies that bias and ends the search. 

In addition I would say that religion is obsessed with answers (or what folks assume to be answers). Scientists are obsessed with questions. In fact, I think we tend to be more focused on looking for the right question, rather than the right answers. Research projects and grant proposals are often set up like this, for example. Yes, the answer you get should be useful and advance science/technology/health yadda yadda. But typically, projects with really good questions are those that are getting funded. Science is largely driven by our curiosity and the need to figure out things. Religion is driven by our desire to be pacified by certainty and answers.

We want to be able to communally obsess over questions. And for that, we need to remove bias as much as possible, other than that we would just keep bickering about interpretation without being able to make any objective progress.

[Luc Turpin]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

The imaginary parts?

No, the oneness that arises from a place beyond time and space, a place untouched by thought and imagination, where nothingness transforms into boundless presence.

Or

"I had to discover the truth for myself... It was the encounter with the unconscious that brought me to the realization that there are forces beyond the individual that shape the psyche." – Carl Young

"I believe this is the most important thing that can happen to a human being: that he can experience the possibility of a state of mind beyond the ego." -Aldous Huxley

"The truth is beyond religion, beyond name and form. It is the essence of your being, the essence of your soul." – Kabir

"When the mind becomes still, the inner light shines forth. And this is the experience of the Self." -Patanjali

But, this can only be understood by those who experience it. For others, it sounds silly.

 

[iNow]

37 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

a place beyond time and space

And you’re suggesting that’s NOT imaginary?

38 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

where nothingness transforms into boundless presence

Will you please drop a pin there on google maps so I may better locate it?

39 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

For others, it sounds silly

There’s nothing silly about those quotes. They’re very insightful comments about the human condition. They’re also unsupportive of and irrelevant to the assertions you’re making here. 

58 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Science is largely driven by our curiosity and the need to figure out things.

Agreed 

[Luc Turpin]

10 hours ago, iNow said:

And you’re suggesting that’s NOT imaginary?

The experience unfolds within you, not from you.

Omnipresence, by its nature, transcends both space and time; it is not confined to any dimension— it is everywhere all at once.

10 hours ago, iNow said:

Will you please drop a pin there on google maps so I may better locate it?

You don’t need to search for or locate it; it’s already within you. To experience it, you need to let go of the need to control, think, or imagine - a hard thing to do for scientistis. Quieting the mind is the way to access to a deeper state of mind where time and space dissolve. In that state, unity and interconnectedness is revealed as always there, hidden by mental chatter.

10 hours ago, iNow said:

They’re also unsupportive of and irrelevant to the assertions you’re making here. 

Be more specific about why my assertions are considered unsupportive or irrelevant. The examples I’ve provided are all spiritual experiences that might help explain our place in the universe. Dismissing these experiences fails to recognize the complexity of human existence, where both objective knowledge and subjective insights contribute to a fuller understanding of who we are, what are we doing here, what is life, etc.

More quotes:

"You are not a drop in the ocean. You are the entire ocean in a drop." – Rumi (Sufism)

"In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life—no disgrace, no calamity (assuming I am not myself)—which nature cannot repair." – Ralph Waldo Emerson

"In that moment, I realized that the separation between myself and the universe no longer existed. I was the universe, and the universe was me." – Lama Anagarika

"The experience of yourself as awareness, free from attachment to the body and mind, is the direct experience of truth." – Mooji

"In the state of realization, there is no time, no space. The Self transcends time and space, because the Self is beyond both. It is eternal and without form. When the mind is stilled, the illusion of time and space ceases."- Ramana Maharshi

"In mystical states, we have a direct perception of the interconnection of all things; time and space, as we normally know them, vanish, and we experience a unity of being that transcends ordinary understanding."  - William James

Edited January 18 by Luc Turpin

[swansont]

3 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

Omnipresence, by its nature, transcends both space and time; it is not confined to any dimension— it is everywhere all at once.

…

You don’t need to search for or locate it; it’s already within you. To experience it, you need to let go of the need to control, think, or imagine. Quieting the mind is the way to access to a deeper state of mind where time and space dissolve. In that state, unity and interconnectedness is revealed as always there, hidden by mental chatter.

Hypothetically. Unless you can empirically confirm this.

[Luc Turpin]

1 minute ago, swansont said:

Hypothetically. Unless you can empirically confirm this.

While it’s challenging to test scientifically, experiencing it becomes more accessible when one is open and willing to eliminate mental distractions, allowing for a deeper connection to the present moment.

Many surveys of meditators reveal that, upon quieting the mind and entering deep states of stillness, they report experiencing a sense of omnipresence, unity, disolving of ego and a higher order. When the mind is stilled, one might expect emptiness or nothingness, but instead, a whole new awareness seems to emerge, offering profound and unexpected insights.

I could provide survey results if that would be helpful.

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

While it’s challenging to test scientifically, experiencing it becomes more accessible when one is open and willing to eliminate mental distractions, allowing for a deeper connection to the present moment.

Many surveys of meditators reveal that, upon quieting the mind and entering deep states of stillness, they report experiencing a sense of omnipresence, unity, disolving of ego and a higher order. When the mind is stilled, one might expect emptiness or nothingness, but instead, a whole new awareness seems to emerge, offering profound and unexpected insights.

I could provide survey results if that would be helpful.

What are these profound and unexpected insights?

This sounds to me like a Buddha wannabee that doesn't understand the teaching and so present's a word salad, in the hope that it contains some sort of nutrition for the soul; and enough of them buy a ticket.

I can provide a lot of link's from the likes of Derren Brown if that would help you...

 

[Luc Turpin]

23 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What are these profound and unexpected insights?

Read the quotes!

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

The experience unfolds within you, not from you.

So, contrary to your original point, NOT “beyond time and space.”

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

You don’t need to search for or locate it; it’s already within you. To experience it, you need to let go of the need to control, think, or imagine

If this is the case, why did you argue when I suggested it only existed in one’s imagination? Now you’re agreeing with me. 

[Genady]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

they report experiencing a sense of omnipresence, unity, disolving of ego and a higher order. ... a whole new awareness seems to emerge, offering profound and unexpected insights.

SCUBA divers report the same after experiencing nitrogen narcosis. A common brain response.

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

surveys of meditators reveal <…> I could provide survey results if that would be helpful.

Meditation is quite beneficial, but it changes one’s cortisol and adrenaline and stress levels much like relaxed breathing does through increased oxygen consumption, but (beyond the small space between your ears) does not alter spacetime itself.

I encourage you to keep meditating because right now your thinking is rather sloppy and perhaps that will help. You don’t even realize how often you contradict yourself because you’re so convinced everyone else is wrong and must be argued against.

A poet might say that humans are the universe trying to understand itself for a little while, and poetry often provides us with new perspectives and insights, but it’s value again involves thoughts and feelings not in altering spacetime more broadly (and no, survey results are also irrelevant to the claims you’re making). 

It’s important keeping an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Luc Turpin said:

While it’s challenging to test scientifically, experiencing it becomes more accessible when one is open and willing to eliminate mental distractions, allowing for a deeper connection to the present moment.

Many surveys of meditators reveal that, upon quieting the mind and entering deep states of stillness, they report experiencing a sense of omnipresence, unity, disolving of ego and a higher order. When the mind is stilled, one might expect emptiness or nothingness, but instead, a whole new awareness seems to emerge, offering profound and unexpected insights.

I could provide survey results if that would be helpful.

“Sense of omnipresence” ≠ omnipresence 

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, Genady said:

SCUBA divers report the same after experiencing nitrogen narcosis

People eating magic mushrooms and LSD feel the same. Exactly as you said, easily explainable neural response. 

[Luc Turpin]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

So, contrary to your original point, NOT “beyond time and space.”

If this is the case, why did you argue when I suggested it only existed in one’s imagination? Now you’re agreeing with me. 

It unfolds both within you and around you. It is not a product of imagination, but when the mind quiets and imagination ceases to intervene, it naturally resurfaces. Part of the whole. It's just not coming from you.

 

 

 

Edited January 18 by Luc Turpin

[iNow]

4 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

It is not a product of imagination, but when the mind quiets and imagination ceases to intervene, it naturally resurfaces.

If not imagination in one of its many forms, then from where?

Anything which surfaces naturally has a natural explanation and source underlying it. Those are both subject to scientific inquiry.

[Luc Turpin]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

SCUBA divers report the same after experiencing nitrogen narcosis. A common brain response.

Scuba divers experiencing nitrogen narcosis, pilots enduring high G-forces, individuals having near-death experiences, and practitioners of meditation all share a common thread: the mind is quiet. This stillness doesn't lead to nothingness, but instead opens the door to profound experiences of "somethingness"—a possible deeper reality or altered state of awareness.

LSD and magic mushrooms induce a shift in perception, often unlocking a heightened sense of awareness that reveals a richer, more complex reality. These substances can alter sensory experiences, enhance emotional sensitivity, and create a profound sense of interconnectedness. While they may not necessarily quiet the mind in the traditional sense, they can disrupt habitual thought patterns, allowing for new insights and perspectives to emerge.

[iNow]

Yes, that’s the point

[Luc Turpin]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

Meditation is quite beneficial, but it changes one’s cortisol and adrenaline and stress levels much like relaxed breathing does through increased oxygen consumption, but (beyond the small space between your ears) does not alter spacetime itself.

I encourage you to keep meditating because right now your thinking is rather sloppy and perhaps that will help. You don’t even realize how often you contradict yourself because you’re so convinced everyone else is wrong and must be argued against.

A poet might say that humans are the universe trying to understand itself for a little while, and poetry often provides us with new perspectives and insights, but it’s value again involves thoughts and feelings not in altering spacetime more broadly (and no, survey results are also irrelevant to the claims you’re making). 

It’s important keeping an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. 

It seems you may be relying heavily on objective explanations, attempting to rationalize subjective experiences through the lens of cortisol and adrenaline. As for me, I’m doing my best, even if it doesn’t align with your perspective. If my thoughts seem imperfect, then so be it. Sometimes, the richness of experience doesn’t fit neatly into a structured framework.

[Genady]

3 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

the mind is quiet

What does make you think that SCUBA diver on a depth of 60m, monitoring gages and dive computer and communicating with other divers, has a quiet mind?

[Luc Turpin]

3 minutes ago, Genady said:

What does make you think that SCUBA diver on a depth of 60m, monitoring gages and dive computer and communicating with other divers, has a quiet mind?

Narcosis: "It can cause a sense of euphoria, altered perceptions, and sometimes a feeling of quieting or slowing down of the mind."

Edited January 18 by Luc Turpin

[iNow]

4 minutes ago, Luc Turpin said:

you may be relying heavily on objective explanations

Correct, bc opinions are like arseholes. Everyone’s got one and they usually stink… and this a science forum FFS

Edited January 18 by iNow