Trump said "they get it [data] very easily"

[Sensei]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

Doing a much better job than some of those other Eastern European leaders ( like V Orban, or R Fico ).

Orban has been on Putin's leash all his life. Oil and gas from Russia to Hungary does not flow anymore. Now he has a chance to become a truly independent politician.

 

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

He just became Prime Minister of Poland in '23.

Re-read Wikipedia link..

 

Edited Sunday at 04:39 PM by Sensei

[exchemist]

31 minutes ago, Sensei said:

PiS ("Law and Justice") is not the far right...

Far right burns Jewish flags in the streets, beats or verbally insults foreigners, etc. etc.

From an economic point of view they ("PiS") are the equivalent of the US Democrats (increase taxes, take from the rich give the poor more money, increase government spending, increasing the impediments to doing business and taxing everything, increasing bureaucracy, etc., etc.).

From a worldview point of view they are US Republicans (against abortion, against LGBT, two-sexes only, against migration, pro coal, gas and oil, human-made climate deniers, creation of laws that hinder the operation of RES., etc., etc.).

 

 

OK, but PiS is also authoritarian and nationalist. So maybe "far-right" was a bit simplistic of me but they have most of the attributes, apart from economic laissez-faire.   

[iNow]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

How would they (Republicans electorate) know? They listen to Fox News, etc. ...

most have actually rejected Fox for being too liberal and have replaced it with sources much farther right (8chan type stuff)

[Peterkin]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I am very surprised at the stupidity of about half the American electorate

I was, too, for about three minutes. Then I reflected on the conversations I'd had, or seen on videos, and I realize that at least half of the people - not just Americans; it's spreading - have so much access to mass communications, they can only distinguish one voice at a time, think about one concern at a time. Many of those voters were single-issue voters: He'll save our religion. He'll save the babies. He'll lower the price of food. But the biggest one was : He'll save us from the wimmin.  

[exchemist]

16 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I was, too, for about three minutes. Then I reflected on the conversations I'd had, or seen on videos, and I realize that at least half of the people - not just Americans; it's spreading - have so much access to mass communications, they can only distinguish one voice at a time, think about one concern at a time. Many of those voters were single-issue voters: He'll save our religion. He'll save the babies. He'll lower the price of food. But the biggest one was : He'll save us from the wimmin.  

That is interesting. Not from the blacks, then?

[swansont]

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

Your post is misleading on many levels. Which is due to your dislike of TFG.

Whose post? You didn’t quote anybody.

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

They did not gain "access to sensitive data of Americans".. They gained "access to current and former government employees"..

Who are Americans. So they gained "access to sensitive data of Americans" 

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

Every company has a database of current and former employees. And HR and accounting people use them.

DOGE is neither. 

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

How to download all the data from the database?

Easy! One line of code:

SELECT * FROM 'table_name';

and you have all the columns and all the records.

Or simply copy the file directory if they had physical access to the server.

No one had to bypass security if they received it (server access credentials) from POTUS.

Security does not necessarily mean computer security. One of the elements of safeguarding systems is physical security. But giving access credentials to people that shouldn’t have it is a breach of computer security. 
 

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

 

I can't imagine the work of such a department/agency (which is tasked with finding where the money is leaking and stopping it) without access to people's data.

DOGE is neither a department nor an agency. That’s part of the problem.

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

If you have a fuel leak in the fuel tank you are looking for holes. The existence of DOGE or its equivalent makes no sense without data.

Which is a separate issue that assumes that Musk et al. are operating in good faith.

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

How they would send a quit offer if they didn't know who to send emails to (i.e. they didn't have first names, last names and email addresses) and who to send letters to (i.e. they didn't have first names, last names, home/correspondence address).. ?

 

Indeed. 

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

 

 

DOGE is like the HR department. It needs to have access to government employee data to perform its operations.

HR departments already exist. If it’s just like HR, then no new group is needed.

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

It's hard to wonder current and former employees that they don't want this department to run smoothly, because it will mean that they will lose their money..

It also means legitimate functions will be sabotaged, which has already happened.

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

Aiming to reduce government spending is by all means very desirable. Especially if this money is spent on foolishness, or even fraud.

Who decides what is foolishness and/or fraud?

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

A country in which debt reaches nearly 100% is some kind of total pathology.

100% of what? 

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

You spend what you have, not what you will/may have in two years..

Tell that to the ~150 countries that have deficits

https://countryeconomy.com/deficit

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

All of this crap is based on the assumption (which may be wrong) that the economy will at least not get worse next year, and that tax receipts and other profits will be at least the same, not worse.

All what crap?

Profits? Countries aren’t businesses.

And a dip in tax receipts is one reason why you might run a deficit 

On 2/9/2025 at 10:19 AM, Sensei said:

 

For the future I would recommend you to be more objective.

 

 

[Airbrush]

Interesting to me in Trump's answer to the question, was the first few words:

"Well, it doesn't, but they get it easily. I mean, we don't have very good security in this country, and they get it very easily."

'Disgrace': Critics outraged by apparent confession at Trump's latest press conference

First of all, yes it is true, we DON'T have very good security (e.g. Mar-A-Lago Documents Case), so he publicly declared that he WILL exploit that!  Trump is brutally honest most of the time.  That's how a good con works, it is 90% true.  Those first 3 words in his answer "Well, it doesn't..."  Those words are pregnant with meaning.  I wish reporters would think fast, and after he speaks in fragments, have some good follow up questions.

Reporter:  "Mr. President, we understand that you think and speak with "the weave" and how it all comes together in the end, so please elaborate, please tell us what you were trying to say in your first 3 words "WELL, IT DOESN'T".  It doesn't what?  That is very interesting.  What doesn't what?  Also, WHAT do you mean by "IT" when you say "it doesn't"?  It seems you mean that the act of stealing data from the govt doesn't do something.  What doesn't stealing data do?"  Trump speaks in sentence fragments, and each fragment has more content to it, so please get him to elaborate on the fragments.

Edited Sunday at 06:03 PM by Airbrush

[Sensei]

29 minutes ago, swansont said:

Whose post? You didn’t quote anybody.

 I don't think I would have to, because any intelligent person would understand the OP.. It could be deduced from the context..

28 minutes ago, swansont said:

Who are Americans. So they gained "access to sensitive data of Americans" 

..you have it in the title of this thread and OP..

 

32 minutes ago, swansont said:

Security does not necessarily mean computer security. One of the elements of safeguarding systems is physical security. But giving access credentials to people that shouldn’t have it is a breach of computer security. 

Paraphrasing you - who is to judge who should get it, or not.. ?

Knowing your political choices you wouldn't even give POTUS such credentials.. (so do I)

You chose the POTUS so you got what you voted for.. so you have to live with it for four years (at least)..

35 minutes ago, swansont said:

DOGE is neither a department nor an agency. That’s part of the problem.

I don't see any problem with that..

 

36 minutes ago, swansont said:

Which is a separate issue that assumes that Musk et al. are operating in good faith.

This is silly. The hatred of the POTUS speaks through you.

If POTUS (aka "TFG") wanted the data, he could simply ask Musk to his office and execute one line of code to download everything to a flash drive without any bothering about making DOGE etc..

Creating conspiracy theories by you? For real?

42 minutes ago, swansont said:

HR departments already exist. If it’s just like HR, then no new group is needed.

HR hires and fires people at the request of senior management. Its job is not to optimize the structure. Unless it will be told to, but it was decided otherwise so it is what it is..

I think that Musk's group when reorganizing structures is more effective - after all, they have years of experience in this topic..

43 minutes ago, swansont said:

It also means legitimate functions will be sabotaged, which has already happened.

It speaks through you the dislike of TFG.

Every POTUS wants to be an "executive".. and doesn't like to have his wings "clipped".. So does everyone..

This is usually done by looking for legal tricks to get around the law.

The other side then makes other legal tricks to torpedo it.

And this goes for years. Without or little things done.

As if the Republicans undercut the wings of Kamala you would now moan how bad and stupid they are.

48 minutes ago, swansont said:

Who decides what is foolishness and/or fraud?

If I see obvious foolishness and/or fraud I see obvious foolishness and/or fraud..

Harder is the case with some more twisted, more cleverly designed things. But I'm managing.

51 minutes ago, swansont said:

Tell that to the ~150 countries that have debt

I was talking about debts exceeding 100% GDP..

56 minutes ago, swansont said:

Countries aren’t businesses.

That's pity.

Welcome to the new world of 2025.

Wake up.

Now you have the DOGE to optimize spending of gov..

You should be happy that finally the government will burn through less tax money.

 

[CharonY]

10 hours ago, dedo said:

The defenses in the US currently is more than the judiciary.  The Congress is heavily influenced by public opinion & the Rep could get massacred in the midterms & even the perception of that can swing the Congress if they sense losses on the way.

The issue is that the core defenses are severely crippled and the scenario you outlined would basically require an 180 of the current situation.

 

10 hours ago, dedo said:

However, I do always try to avoid dichotomous (black & white) thinking that

I think the way you describe things are actually a bit of black and white as the current trend is a slide into weakening of structures. I.e. it is a quantitative decline (which can become qualitative at some point) rather than a black and white situation (i.e. fascist or no). Basically it assumes that a sudden reversal is equally likely as a continuation of the current path. Both have a non-zero chance. But giving the power situation it is also not at 50:50.

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Not that any of us needs another body blow here, even once the courts make a decision it falls to the justice department to enforce those decisions. The justice department is under the executive branch and guess who controls that?

Very fair point. Bondi has already indicated that the DOJ will be a tool of the administration rather than one of the people as originally intended.

 

2 hours ago, MigL said:

These people are in for a rude awakening over the next 4 years ( or longer ) because elections have consequences.

Oh didn't you hear, there won't be an awakening. "Woke" is been outlawed 

 

 

[TheVat]

4 hours ago, exchemist said:

As a Brit, I am really alarmed by what seems to be taking place in the USA. In Poland,  Donald Tusk has found that reversing the damage to the media, judiciary and government caused by the aptly named far-right PiS party is very difficult, slow work.

Yes, what Trump can break in one term may take many years to repair.  Or he flies the GOP into the ground and puts them out of power in two years...and for decades.  Subtle breakage that doesn't alienate the base could do the greater longterm harm.  I'm hearing US pundits who are saying this: stand back and let him crash everything, and that will more effectively get progressive politics back on track all around the globe.  I'm not sure - that's a terrifying gamble.  

[exchemist]

13 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Yes, what Trump can break in one term may take many years to repair.  Or he flies the GOP into the ground and puts them out of power in two years...and for decades.  Subtle breakage that doesn't alienate the base could do the greater longterm harm.  I'm hearing US pundits who are saying this: stand back and let him crash everything, and that will more effectively get progressive politics back on track all around the globe.  I'm not sure - that's a terrifying gamble.  

Very risky. The problem is the damage to trust in formerly independent institutions, including the judiciary, the Dept of Justice and the FBI. One that's gone it takes years to get people to trust them again, especially as one of the things that has to be done is getting rid of the Trumpy loyalists that were parachuted in. Doing that can so easily be presented as politicisation by the other side. As with  presidential pardons. These have now, partly due to Biden's weird use of them, become discredited  as a partisan way to avoid accountability for favoured individuals. Trump has already damaged trust in SCOTUS by appointing two manifestly underqualified people last time. 

There is also the danger that what seems outrageous today will, within 2 years, barely elicit a shrug from punchdrunk voters who have got used to it. No, I think this stuff has to be called out now, in as public a manner as possible, by heavyweight speakers that can communicate. 

(I thought it interesting that Trump had a go at Pete Buttigieg over the plane crash. I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to find a way to blame Buttigieg for it. I feel sure he sees Buttigieg as dangerous to him, because he is the kind of sharp and articulate guy that can highlight what Trump is doing in ways that cut through to people.) 

Edited Sunday at 07:01 PM by exchemist

[swansont]

35 minutes ago, Sensei said:

If POTUS (aka "TFG") wanted the data, he could simply ask Musk to his office and execute one line of code to download everything to a flash drive without any bothering about making DOGE etc..

The issue is who has authority to do this. Personal info is protected, and not even POTUS has authority to circumvent the protections, despite how the current president is acting. 

35 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Creating conspiracy theories by you? For real?

No conspiracy theory. This is all happening out in the open, and a lot of it is illegal.

 

40 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Paraphrasing you - who is to judge who should get it, or not.. ?

Knowing your political choices you wouldn't even give POTUS such credentials.. (so do I)

I doubt any POTUS has system credentials for any computer system. Why would they? Being elected doesn’t confer any special sysadmin knowledge. 

40 minutes ago, Sensei said:

You chose the POTUS so you got what you voted for.. so you have to live with it for four years (at least)..

This all misses the point. Being elected president doesn’t suddenly invalidate the laws in question, or create new powers that aren’t in the Constitution. 

[CharonY]

19 minutes ago, exchemist said:

The problem is the damage to trust in formerly independent institutions, including the judiciary, the Dept of Justice and the FBI. One that's gone it takes years to get people to trust them again, especially as one of the things that has to be done is getting rid of the Trumpy loyalists that were parachuted in.

And then it can result in a cycle of purges which will severely undermine the mission of each agency (not only the FBI). Institutions work to a large degree because institutional knowledge is retained in the mid-ranks, so that even when leadership changes, things kind of continue to work. Techbros believe they are more clever than anyone else and have little issue to break things. After all, it is not them who need to fix things. They learned the master of pitching, though.

Also, the whole mess will again move the baseline of what is acceptable. The US system is built on elements of outreach, and also a certain code of conduct where violating them could result in triggering some of the checks and balances. Now we are going to learn what happens if we throw away norms and let folks game the system.

 

[swansont]

30 minutes ago, exchemist said:

communicate. 

(I thought it interesting that Trump had a go at Pete Buttigieg over the plane crash. I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to find a way to blame Buttigieg for it. I feel sure he sees Buttigieg as dangerous to him, because he is the kind of sharp and articulate guy that can highlight what Trump is doing in ways that cut through to people.) 

Also because he passes the buck for anything bad. Gotta blame it on someone else.

[Peterkin]

3 hours ago, exchemist said:

That is interesting. Not from the blacks, then?

A lot of the Blacks voted against the women (in the government, in the workplace, in the voting booth) as did a lot of Hispanics, regardless of the numerous threats a trump regime poses to themselves.

Of course, many of the Trump voters also believed him selectively: Sure he'll fix the economy, but he won't really pardon those thugs. Sure he'll get rid of the migrants, but he won't really harm our civil liberties. Sure he'll bring prayer back into our schools, but he's still bound o uphold the constitution. Double-think, amnesias of convenience and selective hearing have been with us since the dawn of civilization. Some periods of history are just crazier than others.  

[KJW]

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

 If I see obvious foolishness and/or fraud I see obvious foolishness and/or fraud..

Do you mean for example the $100 million worth of condoms being sent to Hamas?

 

2 hours ago, Sensei said:

You should be happy that finally the government will burn through less tax money.

Not if there is less tax money to begin with because of tax cuts to the wealthy.

 

Edited Sunday at 09:08 PM by KJW

[swansont]

21 minutes ago, KJW said:

Do you mean for example the $100 million worth of condoms being sent to Hamas?

Which, of course, was a lie

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

I was talking about debts exceeding 100% GDP..

There are no countries fitting this criterion. I provided a link. There’s only one country over 20%

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

speaks through you the dislike of TFG.

Every POTUS wants to be an "executive".. and doesn't like to have his wings "clipped".. So does everyone..

This is usually done by looking for legal tricks to get around the law.

The other side then makes other legal tricks to torpedo it.

When you pretend you know the motivation of someone you often reveal more about your own motivations.

You might describe these as “legal tricks” but they are still legal. What’s happening right now is illegal, and that’s objectively true, not rhetoric, and not an issue of how I feel about the president.

.

Quote

Now you have the DOGE to optimize spending of gov..

Yeah, right.

[Sensei]

33 minutes ago, swansont said:

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

I was talking about debts exceeding 100% GDP..

There are no countries fitting this criterion. I provided a link. There’s only one country over 20%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-to-GDP_ratio

Edited Sunday at 10:05 PM by Sensei

[KJW]

37 minutes ago, swansont said:

Which, of course, was a lie

Yeah, it even sounded ridiculous when I heard Trump say it. On an episode of "Planet America" (which I've mentioned before), a person who was interviewed pointed out that although the US government does spend money on condoms for HIV prevention, the number of condoms that could be bought for $100 million being sent to Hamas makes it so obvious that what Trump said was a lie.

The problem with Trump isn't just that he lies, all politicians lie, but that he is so blatant at it. It is an example of the belief that he can do whatever he wants with impunity... and that is dangerous.
 

[iNow]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

it can result in a cycle of purges which will severely undermine the mission of each agency (not only the FBI). Institutions work to a large degree because institutional knowledge is retained in the mid-ranks

Beyond just the purges, it also serves to muzzle people who will be afraid to speak up or in ways contrary to the administration.

It will cause those good people who are there for reasons of service and duty to country to resign voluntarily and migrate to the private sector where they can earn more money without all the headaches and gestapo shit. 

And it’ll make young talent that much less likely to join and help. Why put themselves and their families through it? It’s not just firings.

It’s erasure of the system across every angle. Some will argue that good might come of it, and yeah. Maybe some will, but it’s akin to saying you’re successful losing 10lbs bc you cut your arm off. Sure, you hit your weight goal, but created lots of new unwanted problems in the process. 

1 minute ago, KJW said:

an example of the belief that he can do whatever he wants with impunity

His belief is backed by decades of experience and evidence that he can do exactly that. 

[CharonY]

31 minutes ago, iNow said:

Beyond just the purges, it also serves to muzzle people who will be afraid to speak up or in ways contrary to the administration.

Very true and examples are already happening.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-to-GDP_ratio

My mistake.

[dedo]

9 hours ago, CharonY said:

I think the way you describe things are actually a bit of black and white as the current trend is a slide into weakening of structures. I.e. it is a quantitative decline (which can become qualitative at some point) rather than a black and white situation (i.e. fascist or no). Basically it assumes that a sudden reversal is equally likely as a continuation of the current path. Both have a non-zero chance. But giving the power situation it is also not at 50:50.

Maybe you didn't read all my posts as I outlined several possibilities from "DT fulfills hopes of voters" to "Civil war" with other possible scenarios including agreeing with possible JFK'd scenario, since two attempts made already, false flag, huge losses for Rep in midterms from shifting voter sentiment, to SHTF that a false flag could trigger, to impeachment.  Dichotomous thinking implies two choices which is often just one choice since the alternative to the affected person's belief is often intentionally unrealistic.  I did not assign probabilities but if it makes you happy to have a wild guess, I would say impeachment from shocking voters, vs false flag are near the top of the list, but that is just a guess.  Human behavior is not easy to predict.  A post on Quora I saw reviewed multiple Soviet Union leaders from "prediction" to what actually happened & the record was almost perfect that the predictions were wrong.  So in reality, I just don't know.

If you want to explore the psychopathology of what is going on consider a new thread to deal with that.  Don't know if there are any mental health professionals here but my input would be from significant sporadic study of "what's wrong", a long history of working with psychiatrists including 2k+ consults from them, 30-40k consults regarding external influences on behavior (drugs), & 3 months of training in inpatient & outpatient psychosis, professional practice & solving problems using an airline model of a wide net of opinions, including subordinates, with great success which is the opposite of dichotomous thinking.  I have seen subordinates solve problems their supervisors missed & once they came up with a superior solution to the academics I polled to solve a problem resulting in scores of near misses becoming near zero, all from casting a wide net for solutions.  

So my belief system & practice is anything but dichotomous.  You may have an agenda that I don't meet, & so search for or make up issues from your own attachment to your agenda.

So if you want to explore psychopathology in a new thread, I may add something but prefer to hear others as my technique is not so much to push an agenda, but to mine for ideas like a prospector for gold as the best ideas often come from unexpected places.  On any given day, anyone can be an Alan Turing, at least for a short period.

[exchemist]

4 hours ago, dedo said:

Maybe you didn't read all my posts as I outlined several possibilities from "DT fulfills hopes of voters" to "Civil war" with other possible scenarios including agreeing with possible JFK'd scenario, since two attempts made already, false flag, huge losses for Rep in midterms from shifting voter sentiment, to SHTF that a false flag could trigger, to impeachment.  Dichotomous thinking implies two choices which is often just one choice since the alternative to the affected person's belief is often intentionally unrealistic.  I did not assign probabilities but if it makes you happy to have a wild guess, I would say impeachment from shocking voters, vs false flag are near the top of the list, but that is just a guess.  Human behavior is not easy to predict.  A post on Quora I saw reviewed multiple Soviet Union leaders from "prediction" to what actually happened & the record was almost perfect that the predictions were wrong.  So in reality, I just don't know.

If you want to explore the psychopathology of what is going on consider a new thread to deal with that.  Don't know if there are any mental health professionals here but my input would be from significant sporadic study of "what's wrong", a long history of working with psychiatrists including 2k+ consults from them, 30-40k consults regarding external influences on behavior (drugs), & 3 months of training in inpatient & outpatient psychosis, professional practice & solving problems using an airline model of a wide net of opinions, including subordinates, with great success which is the opposite of dichotomous thinking.  I have seen subordinates solve problems their supervisors missed & once they came up with a superior solution to the academics I polled to solve a problem resulting in scores of near misses becoming near zero, all from casting a wide net for solutions.  

So my belief system & practice is anything but dichotomous.  You may have an agenda that I don't meet, & so search for or make up issues from your own attachment to your agenda.

So if you want to explore psychopathology in a new thread, I may add something but prefer to hear others as my technique is not so much to push an agenda, but to mine for ideas like a prospector for gold as the best ideas often come from unexpected places.  On any given day, anyone can be an Alan Turing, at least for a short period.

I may be being a bit slow but why are you introducing "psychopathology" and all this stuff about psychiatrists? @CharonY was describing a progressive weakening of institutional structures, due to churn in the middle ranks of the professionals working in them, and loss of attractiveness of the jobs. And I have been talking about a loss of public trust in institutions, which is another way in which they can become weakened. Where does psychopathology come into this? 

Edited 23 hours ago by exchemist

[dedo]

3 hours ago, exchemist said:

I may be being a bit slow but why are you introducing "psychopathology" and all this stuff about psychiatrists? @CharonY was describing a progressive weakening of institutional structures, due to churn in the middle ranks of the professionals working in them, and loss of attractiveness of the jobs. And I have been talking about a loss of public trust in institutions, which is another way in which they can become weakened. Where does psychopathology come into this? 

Charon said that my answer was dichotomous, when I believe I mentioned ~5 possible futures for current events (there are probably more).  This whole thread is about "something is wrong" with this current administration, meaning psychopathology.  You mentioned issues in Europe.  So if someone wants to explore it somewhere else, that could be interesting.  Personally think the pathology is an external influence on behavior (in social norms), more than primary mental illness.  Something in society is moving people to follow their autocrat of choice.  Whatever that is, it threatens our survival.  Artists often hint at it first, Elvis Costello (Two Little Hitlers) about relationships but it hints at autocracy & conflict which intersects a political theory of preventing conflict called "Democratic Peace Theory" meaning democracies rarely fight one another.  However, something in society can turn a democracy into an autocracy which is what this thread is about.  (Intersection of art or other disciplines with science could be another interesting thread.)