Pro’s and Con’s of Elon Musk

[Trurl]

He is just a man. But what is it you like or dislike about him?

Whatever your opinion, give the example of what he did.

[swansont]

He’s Nazi.  The salute, numerous anti-semitic remarks, promoting nazi apologists, appearing at an AfD campaignevent.

[Phi for All]

He represents the soul of fascism. He wants control of whole industries with the State's backing, so prices go up beyond the grasp of most people, forcing them to become workers for the company in order to get by. He wants what the other oligarchs want, for money to be the most important thing you can have in terms of power over others. 

Oh, and he's Nazi.

F Elon.

[exchemist]

  On 2/20/2025 at 5:45 PM, Trurl said:

He is just a man. But what is it you like or dislike about him?

Whatever your opinion, give the example of what he did.

Expand  

He made electric cars sexy and showed that Gerry Anderson had the right idea about rockets. Both fantastic achievements. But then he went mad after his son changed gender and disowned him, started to live in a far-right bubble, raving about the "woke mind virus" and has morphed into a megalomanic Nazi.

[CharonY]

As part of that, he is constantly lying on twitter as well as amplifying lies by others. And he is also dismantling important government agencies. Due to his inclinations to lie, it is not clear whether the way he does it is based on ineptness (thus causing more cost and damages than are saved) or whether it is is just nefarious callousness (e.g. to benefit his operations, or even something simple as exerting power without accountability).

Also, he is a effing Nazi.

[Phi for All]

  On 2/20/2025 at 9:30 PM, exchemist said:

He made electric cars sexy

Expand  

Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning, the co-founders of Tesla, designed that first sexy roadster that blew the doors off of just about everything else outside a racetrack. Most notably, neither are Nazis.

[exchemist]

  On 2/20/2025 at 10:11 PM, Phi for All said:

Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning, the co-founders of Tesla, designed that first sexy roadster that blew the doors off of just about everything else outside a racetrack. Most notably, neither are Nazis.

Expand  

But it was Musk's business that took it to market, was it not? 

[swansont]

  On 2/20/2025 at 9:30 PM, exchemist said:

He made electric cars sexy

Expand  

From a marketing angle. What’s the evidence that he had much to do with the design?

  On 2/20/2025 at 9:30 PM, exchemist said:

and showed that Gerry Anderson had the right idea about rockets. 

Expand  

He funded it. Again, is there evidence he did any design or engineering?

Whenever he speaks on matters that people understand, they point out he’s a buffoon.

  On 2/20/2025 at 10:26 PM, exchemist said:

But it was Musk's business that took it to market, was it not? 

Expand  

He invested in the business. His obvious “talent” is that he’s rich. 

[exchemist]

  On 2/20/2025 at 10:31 PM, swansont said:

From a marketing angle. What’s the evidence that he had much to do with the design?

He funded it. Again, is there evidence he did any design or engineering?

Whenever he speaks on matters that people understand, they point out he’s a buffoon.

He invested in the business. His obvious “talent” is that he’s rich. 

Expand  

Marketing was the key to the success of the cars, though. History is littered with great designs that don't get to market effectively. And the rocket business was the result of his  inspiration and drive, even though obviously he was not a rocket designer himself. He's not just rich, he has put his money to work in a very unique way and very effectively. None of which stops him having turned into a Nazi, of course..............

(I feel like Bryan Ferry, who famously got into terrible trouble for pointing out the Nazis had fantastic iconography. 😄)

[pzkpfw]

  On 2/20/2025 at 5:45 PM, Trurl said:

He is just a man. But what is it you like or dislike about him?

Whatever your opinion, give the example of what he did.

Expand  

 

What do you think?

[iNow]

Pro: He's human and therefore mortal. 

Con: We’re unlikely to confirm his mortality today. 

[Trurl]

  On 2/20/2025 at 11:01 PM, pzkpfw said:

What do you think?

Expand  

I don’t know either way. Sometimes we base things on sort of myths we piece together. Musk’s perceived personality is conflicting accounts.

I think he did make important contributions to SpaceX, Tesla. I think he is a genius. But genius doesn’t equal personality. He is following the standard book of a mad scientist in that he wants control.

So he decides who has a job. Again this proves he is a genius. He convinced everyone this saves money and prosperity. He claims it will improve the economy and lower the deficit.

But it makes perfect sense to have a genius in charge of the economy, government, and people’s lives. What could go wrong?

[Sensei]

  On 2/20/2025 at 6:34 PM, swansont said:

He’s Nazi.  The salute, numerous anti-semitic remarks, promoting nazi apologists, appearing at an AfD campaignevent.

Expand  

Russian experiments with brain washing:

https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+experiments+with+brain+washing

Russian experiments with hypnosis:

https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+experiments+with+hypnosis

 

One conversation with “them” and your POTUS and MUSKUS are docile worms that crawl underfoot..

 

  On 2/20/2025 at 9:30 PM, exchemist said:

He made electric cars sexy and showed that Gerry Anderson had the right idea about rockets. Both fantastic achievements.

Expand  

This is the past. Now there is another, alternative version from a parallel reality..

 

  On 2/20/2025 at 11:05 PM, iNow said:

Pro: He's human and therefore mortal. 

Expand  

You think like a mortal human. Imagine Musk AI..

 

 

  On 2/20/2025 at 11:05 PM, iNow said:

Con: We’re unlikely to confirm his mortality today. 

Expand  

...you think like a mortal human....

 

[Sensei]

  On 2/21/2025 at 5:58 AM, Sensei said:

Russian experiments with brain washing:

https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+experiments+with+brain+washing

Russian experiments with hypnosis:

https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+experiments+with+hypnosis

 

One conversation with “them” and your POTUS and MUSKUS are docile worms that crawl underfoot..

Expand  

BTW, the chief of the Pentagon is a TV presenter.. What the f* don't you understand?

 

 

ps. Keep backing up Wikipedia et al, you morons, till they re-edit them and you lose all data..

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

In his defence, he was much less of an obvious Ahole and Nazi the further back you go in time.

[dimreepr]

  On 2/21/2025 at 11:12 AM, J.C.MacSwell said:

In his defence, he was much less of an obvious Ahole and Nazi the further back you go in time.

Expand  

The same can be said about Henry Ford...

[swansont]

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

I think he did make important contributions to SpaceX, Tesla.

Expand  

Based on evidence? Or fallacious reasoning?

A lot of elements are required for success, including luck and help from others, and some people discount these elements when assessing the various contributions (fallacy of the single cause).  Thus the mistaken notion that the rich work hard and poor people are lazy. Plus you have the errors of assuming competence, based on wealth, and assigning the competence of the people working for Musk to him (the phenomenon where managers take too much credit for the work that their people did)

There’s also the error of thinking that expertise is fungible - being smart about one thing does not mean you are smart in other areas.

 

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

I think he is a genius

Expand  

Again, based on evidence?

[Phi for All]

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

I think he did make important contributions to SpaceX, Tesla.

Expand  

Money.

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

I think he is a genius. But genius doesn’t equal personality. He is following the standard book of a mad scientist in that he wants control.

Expand  

I think you're equating being rich with being smart. And viewing him as a stereotype deflects from his behavior. I think you give him too much leeway because you think of him as a "genius", and the worst you can say about him is that he's like Bond villain. 

You know who also wants control who isn't a stereotype? Nazis. Fascists. Republicans.

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

So he decides who has a job. Again this proves he is a genius. He convinced everyone this saves money and prosperity. He claims it will improve the economy and lower the deficit.

Expand  

"Proves" he's a genius, are you serious? It proves he's a liar and a fraud, convincing idiots that looking down from the top to find corruption is a good thing, when most of the corruption, the swamp if you will, is at the top where he's perched. Even you couch them as "claims", like you know it's not going to work. 

This administration knows NOTHING about lowering the deficit, if you judge by past behavior. In fact, TFG set records for the biggest deficit in a single term.

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

But it makes perfect sense to have a genius in charge of the economy, government, and people’s lives. What could go wrong?

Expand  

What makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER is putting billionaires in government leadership. There's no bigger conflict of interest for a free market democracy. Billionaires (all of them) have used their wealth to manipulate the system in their favor, allowing their money to do things it shouldn't be able to, like buying political favor. I've used this analogy before, but if you were paid a dollar every second from the time you're born ($60/minute, $3600/hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year), it would take less than 12 days for you to become a millionaire. But at that same rate, it takes almost 32 YEARS to become a billionaire. Billionaires have rigged the system, and it needs to stop quickly if future Americans are to avoid slave labor for one of FElon's companies.

[KJW]

  On 2/21/2025 at 3:07 PM, Phi for All said:

if you were paid a dollar every second from the time you're born ($60/minute, $3600/hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year), it would take less than 12 days for you to become a millionaire. But at that same rate, it takes almost 32 YEARS to become a billionaire.

Expand  

And that's just ONE billion dollars. For 400 billion dollars, it would take almost 12800 years. So, to accumulate 400 billion dollars in almost 12.8 years would require a THOUSAND dollars every second. Can you imagine what that would look like in coins?

 

[Phi for All]

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:05 PM, KJW said:

And that's just ONE billion dollars. For 400 billion dollars, it would take almost 12800 years. So, to accumulate 400 billion dollars in almost 12.8 years would require a THOUSAND dollars every second. Can you imagine what that would look like in coins?

Expand  

The only way to accumulate this much wealth is to steal it from your workers. Pay them far less than the work is worth, deny them raises, threaten mass firings to keep workers afraid, tie their health insurance to their workplace, aim your processes at hiring younger workers who won't get paid as much, and above all, keep your workers poor so they can't afford to go anywhere else.

In 1965, the average CEO pay was 27 times the average worker pay. Today, mainly because of the practices the billionaires have implemented, the average CEO makes 670 times what the average worker makes. That's a number that shouldn't have changed significantly if workers were being compensated fairly.

[KJW]

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:22 PM, Phi for All said:

The only way to accumulate this much wealth is to steal it from your workers. Pay them far less than the work is worth, deny them raises, threaten mass firings to keep workers afraid, tie their health insurance to their workplace, aim your processes at hiring younger workers who won't get paid as much, and above all, keep your workers poor so they can't afford to go anywhere else.

In 1965, the average CEO pay was 27 times the average worker pay. Today, mainly because of the practices the billionaires have implemented, the average CEO makes 670 times what the average worker makes. That's a number that shouldn't have changed significantly if workers were being compensated fairly.

Expand  

Ooh, don't tell the Americans that... they'll accuse you of being a communist. That's one thing I'll never understand about Americans... the way they fiercely defend their right to be exploited by the rich.
 

[CharonY]

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

He is following the standard book of a mad scientist in that he wants control.

Expand  

In contrast to Musk, I am actually a professional scientist and colleagues have commented that I have an interesting approach to the concept of sanity. Not once did I feel the urge to throw out a Hitler salute.

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:44 AM, Trurl said:

So he decides who has a job. Again this proves he is a genius. He convinced everyone this saves money and prosperity. He claims it will improve the economy and lower the deficit.

Expand  

Being in a position of power does not equate being a genius. I would like to see you make a good argument that Trump is one. Also, what you say is basically they are good at being con men. Which mostly requires you to have a gullible target group that you can con.

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:22 PM, Phi for All said:

The only way to accumulate this much wealth is to steal it from your workers. Pay them far less than the work is worth, deny them raises, threaten mass firings to keep workers afraid, tie their health insurance to their workplace, aim your processes at hiring younger workers who won't get paid as much, and above all, keep your workers poor so they can't afford to go anywhere else.

Expand  

While these are all mechanisms helping money to go to the top, it is not even entirely necessary as a proximate mechanism. Rather, it can be an outcome of a change in the relationship between labour and capital and how the resulting outputs are distributed. For example, if investment goods (e.g., machinery, automation, computers) are getting cheaper there might be an incentive to invest more into them then into labor cost, which reduces the share of labor shares. And this can be accelerated if those investments, or e.g. something like software, increases productivity of capital investments. Couple that with capital mobility and resulting loss of labor bargaining power.

Even if a company was led ethically, the way the market works simply incentivizes activities that reduce labor income and increase capital income. Cripple that by adding regressive tax models, and the process only accelerates.

 

  On 2/21/2025 at 4:38 PM, KJW said:

Ooh, don't tell the Americans that... they'll accuse you of being a communist. That's one thing I'll never understand about Americans... the way they fiercely defend their right to be exploited by the rich.

Expand  

It is so funny, or sad, when academics are doing that. I mean, if your suit is from Men's wearhouse you are not part of the elite.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Being a genius doesn't equate to having good morals, or confer a right to subjugate others. Elon may very well be a genius. Trump may be a genius using a general definition of genius (1% of the population? IQ of 140? I suspect a number on this Forum would meet tha criterion). Doesn't mean much when they espouse opinions that are not just unhelpful to the general population but also often contradictory (other than perhaps pointing to them being often more malicious than wrong in thinking) At any rate these two seem more like idiot savants than "pure" genius.

[CharonY]

  On 2/21/2025 at 5:17 PM, J.C.MacSwell said:

At any rate these two seem more like idiot savants than "pure" genius.

Expand  

I do wonder though how much of the "savant" part is facilitated by generational wealth.

[J.C.MacSwell]

  On 2/21/2025 at 5:29 PM, CharonY said:

I do wonder though how much of the "savant" part is facilitated by generational wealth.

Expand  

...not to mention how much of the rest of the wealth is facilitated by the idiot part.